Mains cables, myths, magic, laws of physics and dambusters

[Effem]

The loop resistance between your hi-fi and the local electricity supply sub-station is likely to be ~0.3 Ohm, taking into account the presence of the meter and domestic wiring (even if you have a dedicated spur installed for the hi-fi). A change of 0.01 of an Ohm will make no audible difference at all.

Depending on the environment, the biggest difference a mains cable can make is if it is shielded or not.

As to talking about "interesting lady parts" - I think you have the wrong forum.

0.3 Ohm? Which BOOK did you read that from?

Sorry, but external shielding on a mains cable makes zero sound difference, nothing at all.

OOPS! Have I upset the "man love" contingent by daring to mention interesting lady parts?

[Oldpinkman]

0.3 Ohm? Which BOOK did you read that from?

Sorry, but external shielding on a mains cable makes zero sound difference, nothing at all.

OOPS! Have I upset the "man love" contingent by daring to mention interesting lady parts?

Given the origins of this thread, I could take issue with this new line of discussion, but - it's not my style. I just have a feeling Marco might - especially if you add pictures and links

[sq225917]

Frank, I think Barrys point was that there is no difference between mains cables they either pass the current without melting and burning down your house- or they do not. Shielding can only help, it cannot hurt, though in all likelyhood it will do nothing.

An 'average' amplifier psu and circuit will have better than 80db PSRR, you'd need some really 'special' RFI modulating the incoming AC to be audible. I'm all about low resistance though and a good earth path.

[lurcher]

Just to add to this thread, before you write mains wiring in the house as a low impedance job done system, it may be worth considering just how the ethernet over mains networking products work.

[Oldpinkman]

Sure, Richard, but for me the key lies in what you've written yourself above, which I've highlighted - and specifically in the word "appears". IMO, that is the crux of the matter.

I genuinely don't believe that the laws of physics *are* being changed, when it comes to the claimed efficacy of 'exotic' mains cables; I simply consider that the reason for the improvements many of us can clearly hear, is just not yet properly understood.

In any case, we can debate the 'whys and wherefores' of all this stuff until the cows come home, which only has limited appeal. At the end of the day, most of us here really only care about what gives us the best sounding system we can afford, which in turn allows us to hear our favourite music at its best. Therefore, in that respect, I would no sooner give up using my 'exotic' mains leads, than you would your love of Pink Triangle!

Marco.

First, as I sit sober at my desktop PC, rather than try to shove in a sneaky post on my Galaxy in the midst of a very alcoholic barbecue, let me offer that as my excuse for the typo's in my earlier post.

Number two's. I am not obsessed by physics proving an effect. If an effect can be demonstrated, I am pretty chilled that there will be room in conventional physics for the phenomena to have an explanation. It may or may not be measurable if one has the right kit. No - for all that it may not seem it from our banter, I line up with Gordon on this as so many other points. I am not really interested, perhaps I should say primarily interested, in either the science or the equipment for that matter. I'm bothered by what it sounds like, and whether I get that "wow" factor - well, that deep satisfaction factor.

Where physics, technical stuff, and equipment design understanding comes into it, is narrowing down the effort I need to put in to getting that listening satisfaction. When I was the big cheese at PT, I had the luxury of being able to ponce all manner of fancy kit off others in the trade, and had the time to play with it, and the support of people I trusted to understand the techie bits when I needed them. Today I dont (although Arthur has let me loose in his toy cupboard a bit)

No - the issue for me, like you Marco, is can I hear it? And I don't have a problem with you or anybody else hearing it and enjoying it. I have a problem with you claiming to hear it and enjoy it, when I can't. I feel left out. I feel I'm missing out on something. The science and the cynicism come in through experience in those days when I was the big cheese at PT and I could spend a bit of time investigating these things. These were the days of the "Linn chip" as another Dave refers to it (I love that reference to the Linn chip being inserted so deep...). And the mains cable of the day was directional interconnects. Any number of people saying "my mate can hear it" "hundreds of satisfied customers can't be wrong" and all sorts of bollocks about copper crystal structures and the like. So we did a "put your money where your mouth is", got some of the prime candidate cables in with a group of Mooneys professing they could hear the benefit, did some simple blind tests, and nobody could hear anything.

These were MUCH easier tests to do than the "is a £1000 interconnect worth the money" tests. In brief, Owen was of the opinion sonic differences in interconnects were measurable, and proved it - or, to be more precise with my language, I should say, demonstrated his point to us at the factory (so not an independant panel of gifted auditioners - just the cloth-eared Pink Triangle crew) that he could make 2 interconnects sound the same by adjusting the impedance and capacitance. The cables genuinely sounded different, but because they measured different electrically. My point is, that there were a number of subjective other factors which could spoil this test. But with directional cables, its the same cable, its just the way you plug it in makes a difference. (or rather, I should say, doesn't make a difference)

Of course, the faithful have their excuses - and proved stone statues bled. The cables needed to "burn in" - no f***ing chance of doing a rational objective A:B on that one. And other nonsense. But whilst I was happy for the deranged to pursue their fantasies, I established that it would take drugs for me to hear a difference in directional interconnects.

And so back to mains cables. I plan to try them. If I can't hear a difference, I am going to get really grumpy like Gordon if anyone criticises my hearing or equipment. (This is your moment Effem). Mrs S has assured me that all my equipment is magnificent, and quite the best she has ever known, and anyone wanting to challenge her on that point will be directed to the source!

I have been at pains before hand to note that I won't be impressed with the claims that the mains in Yalding is different from the mains in the land of sheep speed-dating either.

I have anticipated the "ah - but you changed the wrong bit" or "you need to re-wire your house and get another £5000 gizmo to hear the benefit of a designer kettle lead" in earlier posts too. As I have noted - the faithfull profess that even the most trivial mains purchases "make a fundamental difference" "are the best upgrade I made" when it suits, and then suggest that the benefits are "subtle" or "based on other equipment" when it suits.

But I am deeply grateful to Dave at MCRU for his posts on this subject yesterday - since he has validated my experiment for me. I quote from post number 4 in this thread "as I find it highly enjoyable when a customer makes an effort to phone me to say how incredibly better his hi-fi sounds just by adding a new mains lead". That'll do for me. I've bought 2 of his cables, and they will be the only mains leads anywhere in my system when I test. There is it would appear no question that these are minor items "just by adding a new mains lead" I should get hifi which sounds "incredibly better". I'm looking forward to it

If I don't, I am looking for some explanations as to why I don't which are not pejorative with regard to me. I feel the onus of proof will have shifted to the faithful. Of course - it is possible I will be on the phone to Dave to tell him how impressed I am. They shipped yesterday

[Marco]

LOL to all of that, Richard!

Anyway, which mains leads did you go for? Ultimately, it's your money, your hearing and your system (and so, in the context of your system, only YOUR ears matter), so whether you hear an improvement or not with the new mains cables, I doubt anyone here is going to give you a hard time, one way or the other!

Furthermore, if the cables don't do 'what it says on the tin', as it were, you can send them back for a refund, so there's nothing to lose, other than your time trying them out.

As for the issue of you feeling left out, should you not be able to hear a difference, then I'm afraid that's life. There are so many variables in the equation with this type of thing that it's impossible to ascertain the cause of why that will have happened; should it indeed happen.

Anyway, could you do me a favour please and list all the boxes in your system that require the use of a mains lead, presuming of course that there are more than two? The reason I'm asking is so I can advise you on which components would likely benefit most from the new mains cables. If you've only got 2 bits of kit that require the use of a mains lead, then disregard this request

Marco.

[Effem]

Frank, I think Barrys point was that there is no difference between mains cables they either pass the current without melting and burning down your house- or they do not. Shielding can only help, it cannot hurt, though in all likelyhood it will do nothing.

An 'average' amplifier psu and circuit will have better than 80db PSRR, you'd need some really 'special' RFI modulating the incoming AC to be audible. I'm all about low resistance though and a good earth path.

Simon, I agree with both you and Barry that the whole purpose of a mains lead is to go from the wall socket to your hi-fi without spilling any on the carpet But, there is more to the scenario than just that criteria. All of you have ignored the second part of my initial posting which says that a "sooper dooper" mains cable is merely LESS IMPERFECT that the poor quality moulded ones of indeterminate parentage that are generally being used by those who only see the wire as a conveyancer of electricity.

The incoming loop resistance circuitry is only ever as good as it's weakest link and if that one metre of poor quality wire happens to be the weakest link in the circuit, then taking that out and replacing it with a "sooper dooper" power cord will yield a perceived 'improvement' in sound quality, not because it has some sort of magic properties, but because it is LESS IMPERFECT than the cable it has replaced. In actual fact it is the fuse in the plug and/or the component's internal fusing arrangements that IS the weakest link in the loop circuit (It is by design intended to be for safety reasons) but let's not go there shall we? This also makes sense when folks ask the same old perennial question "How can a one metre length of wire make a difference when there are miles and miles of cables from the power station?" If those miles and miles of cable as thick as your torso are bottlenecked into a piece of wire no thicker than a human hair, then effectively that is as thick as the wire ever is.

The second part of the conundrum is, "If the power supply within the component is "properly designed" then an aftermarket power cord will make no difference at all" but nobody yet has proved to me or anyone else that this is fact. Sure, it will convert AC into DC and have a given power delivery capability for a given load, but those calculations and implementations are based upon static measurements and not under real time dynamic conditions.

The third part of the conundrum is how can a sooper dooper power cord ALONE reduce the noise floor of a hi-fi system, or for that matter a television too? I think I know the answer but that is based upon empirical evidence alone so I don't intend to start another sub-sub-sub debate

[MCRU]

For the record Richard bought 2 x DIY mains lead sets costing £10 each

[MCRU]

Let's take a closer look at hi-fi and the "mains"

Where do you live, that can have an effect on how good the mains entering your house is.

If you live in an older house the mains wiring will have degraded over time, if you live in a flat they all share the same mains feed etc, etc.

Each piece of equipment is designed differently so all will behave differently depending on if the designer cares about mains inside the unit or has the money available to improve internal filtering/regulation etc.

Then we all have different tastes in music and want to hear different things when we listen, a mains lead may alter the sound for some but not for the better in their system, another person listening to the same system may like the difference.

Then there are the "ears", have you had yours checked recently? I get mine done every few months! Surprising what a fine jet of warm water can do for your hearing!

So to dismiss mains cables and cables in general as having no effect is based on that persons experience in their house in their system listening to their music, luckily these people for me are in a minority, nothing wrong with speaking or typing your opinion on any subject, mains seems to be the most contentious subject in hifi and cables in general, have to go now as I have cables to assemble and test.

[YNWaN]

Let's take a closer look at hi-fi and the "mains"

Where do you live, that can have an effect on how good the mains entering your house is.

If you live in an older house the mains wiring will have degraded over time, if you live in a flat they all share the same mains feed etc, etc.

That may well be true - but changing the metre of cable that runs to your gear isn't going to alter any of that.