Gross differences vs. minor differences

[JJack]

This is a wonderful site; so many people passionate about music and this hobby. I'm inspired to write some thoughts about prioritizing where we spend our money (and time) maximizing our enjoyment - that is, what things make a big difference, a small difference, or no difference at all.

I've rank-ordered my own admittedly unscientific experience below. I hope others will agree, disagree, and share their own thoughts.


From the biggest difference to the smallest :

1. speaker interaction with the room (placement and suitability of type of speaker) (trumps all other factors combined)

2. speaker quality

3. treatment of room modes in the bass, and treatment of all situations like large windows, reflective wall material, etc.

4. analog source quality, from cartridge (assuming suitability with tonearm), to tonearm, to platter and bearing.

5. Tie: digital source quality and amplification quality. (deviation as one upgrades from reasonable equipment - say, Arcam)

6. Dedicated isolated power line from the grid to listening room.

7. Interconnects

8. Speaker cables (only a difference with radically different profiles)

9. Mains isolation (not a repeatable difference)

10. Power cord (not a repeatable difference)


Affirmatively no difference:

11. top-notch isolation equipment for amp/preamp

12. CD treatment, cable isolation


I wonder what your experiences have been?

[JJack]

I should point out that these are the things I've tested/evaluated in my own systems, and the two other systems I know the best.

For example, I've used three different equipment racks of increasingly better quality, and have heard no repeatable difference despite the gross differences in price. Did I keep the most expensive one? I sure did. Just in case.

[pjdowns]

For me Jack, possibly the biggest 'difference' I've heard in my system was when I bought a TCI 6 Way power block. In my previous home (a 3rd floor Flat) it made a huge difference and all for the princely sum of £125 or around that anyway...

Until that point I just didn't get the point of power cables etc, I had previously tried a number of 'upgraded' kettle cables for my Naim CDI and they made little difference but this made a stupid amount of improvement...

It has to be said that on trying the A/B comparison since I've moved into my current home (3 bed semi) the power block made a difference but not quite as in your face...

My assumption, right or wrong (I'm sure DSJR-Dave will challenge me on this one) is that it had something to do with being in the flat block (a 1970's design) and having to share the power as apposed to a 10 year old semi!

Other differences I've heard was when I added the additional Exposure XVIII power amplifier and began bi-amping my Epos ES-14... now this was a big step forward from an overall control and ease of listening perspective.

Paul.

[Reffc]

This is a wonderful site; so many people passionate about music and this hobby. I'm inspired to write some thoughts about prioritizing where we spend our money (and time) maximizing our enjoyment - that is, what things make a big difference, a small difference, or no difference at all.

I've rank-ordered my own admittedly unscientific experience below. I hope others will agree, disagree, and share their own thoughts.


From the biggest difference to the smallest :

1. speaker interaction with the room (placement and suitability of type of speaker) (trumps all other factors combined)

2. speaker quality

3. treatment of room modes in the bass, and treatment of all situations like large windows, reflective wall material, etc.

4. analog source quality, from cartridge (assuming suitability with tonearm), to tonearm, to platter and bearing.

5. Tie: digital source quality and amplification quality. (deviation as one upgrades from reasonable equipment - say, Arcam)

6. Dedicated isolated power line from the grid to listening room.

7. Interconnects

8. Speaker cables (only a difference with radically different profiles)

9. Mains isolation (not a repeatable difference)

10. Power cord (not a repeatable difference)


Affirmatively no difference:

11. top-notch isolation equipment for amp/preamp

12. CD treatment, cable isolation


I wonder what your experiences have been?

Hi Jack and a very belated welcome!

I think you've summed up pretty well to be honest and if my arm was twisted to make a list, it'd look similar to yours but with the addition of two more things:

1. Recording quality

2. Mood

The former I find tends to be forgotten quite often in the search for audio nirvana and the second can have quite a significant impact on our assessment of high fidelity credentials of our systems. In balance, it's not just mood but how susceptible we may be to suggestion (even from fine forums/Fora(!) such as this one), or whether we're receptive to the message and purpose of the music or more listen critcally at the hifi as the music can take second place of things don't sound right.

Following some work for a good customer of mine, this evening he told me that a few tweaks made to his system had resulted in it being effectively 95% perfect for him and he was disappointed that the 5% remained a compromise. I responded that his glass was perhaps 95% full because he's at a stage where he can emotionally connect with his music library with acceptable compromises. To my mind, that's about as good as hifi gets, in spite of what the marketing types would have us believe. Each of us will have our own acceptable level...usually the one where we dont need to meddle any further....we inevitably will though

[Barry]

Excellent thread Jack!

Although I haven't tried all of the options (those of 6 and 9), I would largely agree with your 'pecking order'. In some environments (those plagued by RFI) 8 and 10 can have a greater effect than 7, and with some amplifiers (those lacking a Zobel network across the output) 8 can have a significant effect.

But in my system, I concur with your observations. Especially 11 and 12!

I'm sure others will come along with completely different experiences, so this thread should prove interesting.

Thanks

[bobbasrah]

From the biggest difference to the smallest :
1. speaker interaction with the room (placement and suitability of type of speaker) (trumps all other factors combined)
2. speaker quality
3. treatment of room modes in the bass, and treatment of all situations like large windows, reflective wall material, etc.
4. analog source quality, from cartridge (assuming suitability with tonearm), to tonearm, to platter and bearing.
5. Tie: digital source quality and amplification quality. (deviation as one upgrades from reasonable equipment - say, Arcam)
6. Dedicated isolated power line from the grid to listening room.
7. Interconnects
8. Speaker cables (only a difference with radically different profiles)
9. Mains isolation (not a repeatable difference)
10. Power cord (not a repeatable difference)
Affirmatively no difference:
11. top-notch isolation equipment for amp/preamp
12. CD treatment, cable isolation

1, 2, and 3 are interconnected, and IMHO Speaker (Driver) quality and it's environment are part of the same picture, not just the room but the cabinet or baffle or horn. Room treatment is all too readily overlooked, yet so open to DIY and experimentation, domestic harmony issues aside.
4 Yes, but my turntable is out of use for many years now
5 Yes, but, DAC design and layout are much better understood these days, as are PSUs and minimising attenuation/re-amplification at the amp, impedance matching, etc, so the differences here dwarf amplification differences in many cases.
6 Yes, in some cases, but this is so dependant on layout and how sensitive to it the transformer stage is on your kit, ditto for 9 Isolation.
The rest, pretty much agree.

[MikeMusic]

I find it varies - with some items you thought would make a difference not doing so and others taking your breath away

I started in this house with a 'good system' which sounded rubbish. LP12/Aro/Karma, Naim 32.5, HiCap, 135s, Isobariks mostly on Mana
My unscientific path was.
Tidy up the mains and earth - fabulous improvement for not a lot of dough
Mains cables next as they were my focus. I didn't think they would work and was staggered when they did.
I carried on upgrading mains cables to the kit and continued to be staggered by the improvements.
Interconnects next, some staggering improvements and some not so big. That didn't seem to make sense, perhaps 80:20 on the price:benefits
Then some kit upgrading mixed in with mains cable and interconnect improvements.
Some items were ok, some were much bigger than expected
The big ones for me (there might be others I've forgotten)
Achromat on the Technics
PS Audio P10 Mains regenerator
The Ultimate mains cables
Yannis interconnects

There are many others and my system now sounds very good, 'satisfactory' perhaps.
More upgrades to come though !

[Andrew B]

This thread certainly raises an interesting question. I wish I could quantify improvements in a similar way, but the more I learn about hifi, the less I seem to "know".

The only real certainty I can offer is that with vinyl, I still feel that "source first" has led to the most fundamental improvements. Changing from LVX to Ekos many years ago was huge. But then again, I can happily live with something like a Rega 3 and MC cart in a sympathetic system.

After thirty years of box swapping, I've heard big differences from all sorts of areas:

Amps wise, moving up to a Naim 250, an Exposure Dual IV and most recently the four NVA monos have all been huge. Preamps have made big differences too, although I've not always liked the most expensive one. For instance, I favour Naim's NAC42 over supposedly better ones and in my current setup, my Perreaux beats the Audio Research.

Speaker wise, I've had many massive changes and some large improvements. Most have come undone when I've moved though.

CD wise, only the Naim CDI has really been above the chasing pack, despite me owning some expensive transports and DACs. Still, at least one CD player has been a huge advance and others have still offered worthwhile improvements.

Cable wise, Mains cable has offered big improvements with Naim amps but less with others. Speaker cables have been important too, although experience has taught me not to believe in universally suitable cables, so I keep a few and use them to suit the system accordingly. Interconnects have made some difference but less than speaker cables, although again I keep a few to suit whatever I'm using.

Supports make varying differences too. Mana was a change although not totally to my tastes. I love Ikea Lack tables with turntables and I use Isoplats under CD replay and preamps. Torlyte is good too and I use a double Silentstage under my Xerxes. Speaker stands have made substantial improvements too. Like heavier stands like Pirates, Huygens and Z1s. That said, Origin Live's Epos tripod stand was the biggest improvement from a speaker stand.

[MikeMusic]

This thread certainly raises an interesting question. I wish I could quantify improvements in a similar way, but the more I learn about hifi, the less I seem to "know".

Dat de truth !

[JJack]

Hi Jack and a very belated welcome!

I think you've summed up pretty well to be honest and if my arm was twisted to make a list, it'd look similar to yours but with the addition of two more things:

1. Recording quality

2. Mood

The former I find tends to be forgotten quite often in the search for audio nirvana and the second can have quite a significant impact on our assessment of high fidelity credentials of our systems. In balance, it's not just mood but how susceptible we may be to suggestion (even from fine forums/Fora(!) such as this one), or whether we're receptive to the message and purpose of the music or more listen critcally at the hifi as the music can take second place of things don't sound right.

Following some work for a good customer of mine, this evening he told me that a few tweaks made to his system had resulted in it being effectively 95% perfect for him and he was disappointed that the 5% remained a compromise. I responded that his glass was perhaps 95% full because he's at a stage where he can emotionally connect with his music library with acceptable compromises. To my mind, that's about as good as hifi gets, in spite of what the marketing types would have us believe. Each of us will have our own acceptable level...usually the one where we dont need to meddle any further....we inevitably will though

An excellent point re: mood: the listener's ability or willingness to let the music do its thing is a precondition to all the rest.

I'm a "turn off the lights, take off the glasses, unplug the refrigerator" kind of listener.

By the way, did you intend your logo to look like a side view of a Spartan helmet?