Phono stages: an observation

[alfie2902]

Hmmm.. still no results, come on Dave let us know what you thought!

I've had the Pure sound P10 for a few days now & its an awesome bit of kit! . I'm very impressed!

Just need to spend some money on the TT now LOL. It would be nice to put my FR64s on a sp10 or a 301 (Looks like it may be a Gyrodeck first though- any thoughts?). then a better 103 or an SPU or maybe a shelter 501. we will see!

[pure sound]

Not sure a Gyro would actually represent a step up from a Systemdek III which was a very fine & substantial design. A well sorted SP10 or 301/401 could be but both are starting to get expensive now. A Shelter or an SPU would be a nice upgrade from the 103 though.

[alfie2902]

Hi Guy,

I'm on the lookout for a 301/401 or an sp10 to fettle as a longer term project, as they seem like they would be a good match for my FR64s thats on the Systemdek atm & a tonearm i want to keep!

I thought the gyro might make a worth while interim upgrade? But it seems from what you've said only a sidegrade (although more pleasing to the eye)
Is there any TT you would suggest as an interim uprade for the arm whilst i source & fettle one of the above?

The Systemdek III is a great bit of kit, but i wasn't sure if it would hold back a SPU, Shelter 501 or a 103rosewood or 103sa? what would your thoughts be on this?

Sorry for the slight thread hi-jack, But it did start with my views of the P10 which i'm loving & is making me think maybe a valve amp is imminent!

Cheers alfie

[Marco]

Hi Alfie,

I'm surprised, with the wealth of information on here, that you're not considering a modified 1210, unless your FR64 won't fit...

A fully-fettled Techy, in my experience, pisses all over a Systemdek or a Gyro - both are unfortunately severely hampered by the use of rubber bands. A fully modified 1210 is also 95% as good as an optimally functioning SP10, and brand new to boot!

As for cartridges, an SPU or Shelter would be great, but if you like the sound of the stock 103, you would be shocked and stunned at how good the 'SA' sounds through the A23 SUT and a superb valve MM stage such as the P10.

Options, options...

Marco.

[alfie2902]

Hi Marco,

I've heard a couple of modified 1210's one of them being yours! Albeit at the Pieshow & not in its normal surroundings & was very impressed! & no doubt sounds even better in your listening room!

But on the day of the Pieshow tbh i prefered Coco's Sp10 & Beoblokes 301 & quite fancy the challenge of rebuilding one to work with my FR64s. The high effective mass of the arm will limit my choice of cart to either an SPU, Shelter, 103sa or something similar. If the systemdek proves to be good enough not to limit the performace of one of the said carts, i may well stay with it until swapping arm/cart on to the fettled sp10/301/401.

If i was to buy a 1210 it would give me 2 projects to pour money into! So i don't think i'll go with a 1210.

I'm also not so sure all belt drives are as severely hampered as you say. Some well implemented belt drives still sound pretty good to me & i've heard some not so good DD tables. Theres good & bad examples of both designs! I'm not arguing that the systemdek is a good implementation by the way & have said how impressed i was with the 1210's. I just fancy an older deck to play with DD or idler, but if money was no problem i would be looking at a TW Raven!

Hmm maybe one day


Options, options...

[pure sound]

Hi Marco & Alfie,

A Systemdek III is a somewhat different creature to the little IIx and can, despite its rubber band, give very, very good results if set up well probably with a new belt & well oiled bearing. I certainly don't think it would 'hold back' any of the suggested cartridges.

It's a little too easy to dismiss all belt driven decks. There are a number of factors that come into play.

First of all there are the heavy unsuspended belt drive designs such as the Micro's, Verdiers, Brinkmann, TW Acoustic, Kuzma & even the Nottingham Analogue models. These don't tend to suffer from the uncertain pitch & image stability that can afflict poorly executed belt driven suspended models. However, they can be somewhat sensitive to what they stand on. That applies to many decks though.

Suspended belt driven decks potentially have a higher degree of acoustic isolation which is certainly beyond lighter decks with less acoustic decoupling and some of the heavyweights. The issue then is whether the suspension system, suspended mass and the belt chosen are optimised not to allow the suspended mass to be pulled about by the motor when the stylus tries to slow the record. Get that behaviour right and it can work well. Get it wrong & it can be a sloppy mess particularly on busy music. iirc the suspension system and where the drive was applied on the III was such that it was far more stable sounding than many of the competing decks of the time.

With regard to fitting an FR64 to a 1210, I'm not even sure it would go. Its a 10" design iirc.

I'm also not sure anyone need be quite so fearful of buying an SP10 either, particularly an 'ex domestic' one. I must know 10-15 people who have bought them over the past 2-3 years and none have had problems with them, regretted the purchase or indeed have sold them. Even if they were to have problems, there are at least 2 or 3 people around now who can put them right & they contain few if any electronic parts that can't be replaced. In a decent, substantial plinth there's much more scope for getting creative with tonearm choice too. It can be the last deck you'd need.

I think the SP10 is possibly easier to get working well than the 301 is. Having had both, I'd also choose the former every time but I can still understand why people like the 301 particularly if they've come from something like an LP12.

The answer as always is to try to hear the options before you buy.

The other more unusual suggestion might be to stick the FR64 onto something like a Kuzma Stabi S and be done with it that way. Another deck capable of excellent results.


EDIT: The deck in Mr Coco's room was one of my pair. Mr Coco's is not so portable but actually sounds much better (thanks in large part to the cartridge he has!)

[Marco]

Alfie,

I've heard a couple of modified 1210's one of them being yours! Albeit at the Pieshow & not in its normal surroundings & was very impressed! & no doubt sounds even better in your listening room!

Nice one, although I don't remember. Did you introduce yourself?

But on the day of the Pieshow tbh i prefered Coco's Sp10 & Beoblokes 301 & quite fancy the challenge of rebuilding one to work with my FR64s.

That's cool and I can understand that, but it's very difficult to analyse what impact the T/T was having in those systems you mention and separate it from the sonic signature imposed by the partnering electronics and speakers - especially at a show. It is entirely possible that it was the overall effect of the latter you preferred more than the former, particularly considering how different the gear was to what we were using in our room

The high effective mass of the arm will limit my choice of cart to either an SPU, Shelter, 103sa or something similar. If the systemdek proves to be good enough not to limit the performace of one of the said carts, i may well stay with it until swapping arm/cart on to the fettled sp10/301/401.

I would live with the Systemdek at the moment, as switching to the likes of a Gyrodek would be more of a side-grade than an upgrade, IMO.

Incidentally, your FR64 would also be a great match for a Shure M3D. Trust me, you should include this veritable classic in your cartridge shortlist as it is utterly superb in the right set-up. Your FR64 and an SP10 or Garrard would be ideal. Steve (sps) here uses one to great effect on his FR/TD124 combo, as do I on my 1210. Have a read at my thread on the M3D elsewhere

I'm also not so sure all belt drives are as severely hampered as you say. Some well implemented belt drives still sound pretty good to me & i've heard some not so good DD tables. Theres good & bad examples of both designs!

Oh I completely agree - I should have explained myself better. What I meant was that, IMO, 'low-mass' belt-drive T/Ts, such as your Systemdek (sorry!) and the likes of the Gyro you mentioned, are fundamentally hampered by their use of 'rubber bands' (and low-torque motor units, in comparison to that used on SP10s and the like) such that 'dynamic wow' is a significant problem. It's to do with speed stability, and for me belt-drive T/Ts only get it right in that area when going down the high-mass route, such as the Kuzma here and other similar examples on the market:

http://www.stereophile.com/turntables/407kuzma/

It takes that amount of mass and engineering to properly solve the speed stability issues of belt-driven T/Ts, whereas with direct-drive or idler the problem is tackled in a much more 'elegant', less bulky package. Low-mass belt-driven T/Ts such as I have mentioned, and the likes of Linns and Regas, warble and waver all over the place in comparison, and unfortunately my ears are attuned to picking up on this annoying trait such that it does my head in within five minutes of listening to it!

I'm not arguing that the systemdek is a good implementation by the way & have said how impressed i was with the 1210's. I just fancy an older deck to play with DD or idler, but if money was no problem i would be looking at a TW Raven!

No worries whatsoever - I completely understand the attraction and satisfaction of fettling an older T/T, so I wish you all the best with your forthcoming project. I'm sure that it will be much fun

Marco.

P.S Guy, I'm with ya!

[alfie2902]

Guy & Marco,

Thanks both for the advice. Some things for me to think over!

The Systemdek was in storage for 12 years until 6 months or so ago. I'd used it for 5 or 6 years before that, but never really new much about TT's. So am still really a novice.

I've given it a fettle, a new belt & changed the bearing Oil & am looking to change the feet! I picked up a Pro-ject Phono box se cheaply off ebay, my AU-300LC through AOS from 'Bong' & a cheap DL-103 just to get me going! I was quite shocked just how good it sounded! Then adding the P10 just over a week ago made a hugh improvement!! Now thanks to your advice i think i'll look for a cart upgrade next while thinking on what to do Long term!

The Kuzma Stabi S is an interesting suggestion thanks Guy! I didn't know it was your SP10, sounded very good anyway! Seem to remember there was a Kuzma also in Coco's room. I have been reading about Coco's IO Ltd over on the Wam. He's blown away with it atm now he's hooked it up with a battery! Lucky fellow.

Marco your point about trying to analyse different TT's in different systems is good & totally valid! But a show like the Pie show is really the only way to hear such gear. It Would be hard to get your 1210, Guy's or Coco's SP10, Beo's 301, Steve (sps) TD124 into my system & room to be able to judge them with constants that i know!

If Steve (sps) was using a Shure M3D at Scalford then yes did sound very good & maybe worth trying to pick one up. I couldn't beleive the power from his kit when i asked him to wick up some Led Zep & all from 6 valve watts.

By the way Marco i was that thick set, long haired guy you couldn't get rid of at the end of the show. Antony TD (very nice bloke too) introduced us after we had got chatting outside & he said he'd give me a shout when your 1210 was back on!

Anyway enough rambling
Thanks chaps
alfie

[i_should_coco]

Hi Alfie, yeah, the SP10 was Guy's - it was the closest thing to my deck, and 'portable' as he says. It was simply because mine was to much a pain to ship. I have a crate for it now, so it should definitely make the next show! The Kuzma belonged to Tel, another wammer and it did get played later in the day. It's a really fine deck, too, perhaps only sounding a bit 'smaller' than the SP10.

To be honest, it's all the turntable I ever need. I'd like to try a Mk 3, but I suspect the cartridge on a 2 would be better than anything else on a 3, so I'm happy.

I'l probably have another fiddle with plinths - not because it needs it, but because I can!

[The Grand Wazoo]

From The Grave

So to veer violently back to the OP:

Phono stages - how much do the good ones cost? Why does performance not necessarily relate directly to price? Which ones are the bargains?