Buying direct vs. through a dealer

[jandl100]

{Discussion moved earlier from here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showt...038#post349038 }

.... but please don't think that buying online means you can have something for a weeks w@nk and then return for a full refund.............

Err ... I do believe you can, actually! OK, you have to pay the return postage or take it back yourself.

Buy online -- you know it makes sense! (It really does!)

Even buying from a bricks & mortar dealer online gives you these legal return rights!
Demonstration room dems are often pretty useless - try it at home in your own system and room for a week! Yaay - way to go!

[Marco]

There's nothing wrong with buying on-line - I've done it a few times myself - but in this dispute about buyers rights, etc, let's remember that good dealers, who know and trust their customers, will often allow you to take stock home, without having to pay bugger all!!

Therefore YOU the customer are 100% in control!

When I was building up my old Naim system, Geoff (at Acoustica, in Chester) used to let me take all sorts of kit home to audition first, before buy buying it, including (at the time) brand new £6.5k Naim CDS/XPS CDPs, NAC52/Supercaps, etc, not to mention my Spendor SP100s.

Quite simply, I'd not have bought those items any other way. The same applies today, should I choose to use a dealer. It's a simple two-stage process:

1) Arrange demo at shop.

2) If you like what you hear, then take the kit home for a listen, or arrange for the dealer to bring it round, and you both have a listen over a cup of coffee, and if you need more time to make up your mind, he leaves it with you for a few days. No money exchanges hands.

When I bought my Ortofon ST-80SE SUT recently, from Simon (at Hi-Fi Sound), he arranged for the distributors, Henley, to send me a unit to audition first, which I borrowed for some weeks before making up my mind to buy it, in order to ensure that I was happy with it in my system. He knows that I'm a serious buyer, and so he was rewarded in the end with a sale, just as he was for my new SPU cartridge and Ortofon tonearm.

That's certainly the service I'm used to getting from a good independent hi-fi dealer, and you definitely don't usually get that level of personal service by buying on-line!

Marco.

[jandl100]

That's certainly the service I'm used to getting from a good independent hi-fi dealer, and you certainly don't get that level of personal service by buying on-line!

Why not?
I have. A certain ex-member of AOS who is also a solely online hifi seller sent me several amps to try out, with no upfront payment or commitment on my part.
There are other examples I could give of excellent online service.

A good dealer or seller can be found in bricks and mortar establishments or online. There is no distinction, imho & ime.

[Marco]

Sure, Jerry, but only if they know you, and out of goodness knows how many 1000s of on-line retailers, how many do?

Say, I'm in the market to buy a new £6k valve amp, and I see one that I fancy on eBay from an on-line retailer (with no shop premises), who doesn't know me from Adam, and I ask him to ship it to me first, so I can have a listen.

How likely is that to happen?

Or, since Richard's discussing this on his forum at the moment, someone out of the blue contacts him and asks for a couple of amps to be sent out for audition. What are the chances of him doing that to a complete stranger, without payment up front first?? NADA!

I like to be the one in control, not the seller, so if I can audition kit at home first before buying, without having to pay bugger all in advance, then that's what I'll do!!

I don't like giving my money in advance to anyone, even if legally I'm covered, as it could still be a major ball-ache trying to get it back, if necessary, from someone who is less than honest. However, if I haven't paid anything in advance, then there's no risk - that's what I mean about being in control, and I insist on that way of doing business when it involves high value items.

My view is that, as I'm the customer, I expect the seller to take any risks and do all the running around necessary in order to work for a sale, not the other way round!

My overall point is that you're more likely to get the sort of personal service we're discussing from a 'bricks & mortar' dealer, simply because their business model facilitates it better, and also because trust can be established more easily between both parties

Marco.

[Marco]

From Richard Dunn, on his forum:

See post #36 at AoS.

Surely Marco must have the intelligence to realise he gets preferential treatment.

Marco was getting that treatment LONG before he was 'known' by any bugger! The dealings I was referring to with Acoustica, and Naim equipment, happened in 2001 - SEVEN years before AoS was born. I was a 'nobody' then. It's the type of service I've always been used to when buying 'high-end' hi-fi equipment, since I first did it, 25+ years ago.

The fact is that ANYONE with some credibility, as a serious buyer, can get the type of service I'm referring to from a good dealer. It's precisely why you pay the extra for their margin. Do you think that experienced dealers can't weed out the time wasters, from those who are serious? It's all about the impression you make when walking through their door!

If you're able to audition kit you're interested in buying, in the comfort of your home, without having to fork out a penny first, then you'd be a daft not to do it, and under normal circumstances, avoid any necessity for a refund. The fact is, if your money is safely tucked inside YOUR back pocket, rather than in the hands of a seller, you're as safe as houses.

Let the seller work for the sale and take all the risks, not you!

Marco.

[Marco]

Mr Dunn is still talking nonsense on his forum:

His argument holds no water. His dealer knew perfectly well he runs his own company and has plenty of dosh. The test is for *normal* members of the forum go and try to get this service just walking into a dealer, no bloody way.

What exactly does "normal" mean??? I've already said that I was getting that kind of service from dealers LONG before I owned AoS!

So, according to you, buying goods direct from an Internet seller is just for 'poor people', and buying from dealers is for 'well off people'? Complete and utter piddle!!

Like I said, it's all to do with credibility. It matters not a jot how wealthy you are, as long as you can convince the dealer that you're a serious buyer for the goods that you're seeking to audition, and have the means to pay for them - end of. Any "normal" person can do that. You don't have to be one of the 'chosen ones'!

And these rude remarks, on your forum towards Alan Sircom, beggar belief........

How many time do you have to be told before it sinks in, are you deliberately not understanding or is there a motive. For F*CK sake I have been doing this direct selling for 5 years. So listen and let your brain absorb this...

And:

If you don't want to be insulted don't talk nonsense.

See here (anyone who's interested reading): http://hifisubjectivist.com/viewtopi...p=54656#p54656

That says it all about your attitude, Richard. What way is that to address anyone, least of all an editor of a leading hi-fi magazine?? It shows a complete lack of manners and respect. Perhaps in your world being so rude is a normal way to communicate with people?

Your insulting of Alan Sircom, and the inflammatory language that you always use when addressing people who disagree with you (and the havoc it causes), is *precisely* the reason why you were banned from AoS the last time, indeed the same as you've been banned from every other audio forum in the UK, NOT how you portrayed events to me recently via email.

I didn't want to get into a protracted circular argument with you about it, but you've just provided all the evidence I needed. The fact is, you simply don't possess the ability to be civil, during a debate, towards those who don't think like you do. The red mist unfortunately always descends. *That* is your big problem - and it will always be your big problem until you acknowledge it and do something about it!

Marco.

[Marco]

Richard writes, here: http://hifisubjectivist.com/viewtopi...p=54660#p54660

I refuse to feed Marco's agenda, anyone can pull sentences out of context of the same post or previous posts. I welcome any and all AoS member to come and read this thread in full and make their own judgements.

What's up, Richard, got nothing to say now that I'm giving you a taste of your own medicine? This is my 'Elsewhere on the Web'

There's no agenda. I'm simply telling it 'as it is', just as you do on The Subjectivist. Alan Sircom himself said that he found your remarks insulting, so you can't argue with how someone else feels! Nothing has been taken out of context. I'm only publishing the evidence that's written on the screen in front of me.

The fact is, as was proven by how you addressed Alan Sircom, your innate aggression and lack of civility (often referring to people as "idiots"), when engaging them in debate on forums, always comes to the surface when someone doesn't agree with you, and when others return the compliment, due to your rudeness winding them up, you squeal and hide behind the "ad hominem" card, although Alan is too clever and too much of a gentleman to fall for that crap.

The fact is, Richard, you frequently twist the meaning of ad hominem simply to suit your own agenda!

Just so you know, incidentally, the real reasons why you've been banned from AoS three times, rather than simply what you've imagined inside your head - it is this:

1) Your un-abating rude and aggressive behaviour towards other members, simply when they don't agree with you, as was witnessed with your treatment of Alan Sircom, on your forum. Many AoS members have similarly suffered your unjustified 'wrath' and have complained in the strongest of terms. You were banned because of that, and because you refused to comply with the rules set by those who manage this site.

2) Your threatening, over the phone with violence, Chris Frost (an AV equipment dealer), as a result of an eBay dispute with him, involving your published sales. We do not tolerate threats of violence towards other members, and I can publish evidence relating to that if necessary. You were thus instantly banned.

3) As a result of 1), above, and his extreme frustrations with you, Rob (Filterlab), one of the founding members of AoS and a member of admin, offering the (then) management team an ultimatum, that it was either him or you who remained on the forum. Obviously, you came a poor second, and so were banned.

I'm sure that it'll all come flooding back now, Richard.... How many more chances should you be given to return to AoS, only to do the same things all over again??

Marco.

P.S I notice you've gone all polite now towards Alan. I wonder why?

[jandl100]

Hmm, well, I see this thread is now in my name, but tbh I have no wish to get into an inter-forum punch-up.

I'll just repeat my experience that you can get great service online, and that there can be substantial financial, practical and legal benefits in doing so.

Yes, the personal experience of going into a shop can be good, but I feel certain that there are many folk (me included) who have had bad experiences doing that.
Nowt's perfect.

That's me done.

[realysm42]

It's funny this discussion has popped us just now; I've bought something online (ex-demo) and I think it's damaged, so have sent it back to the manafacturer to give it a once over.

If it is damaged, do you know where I stand in terms of buyer protection etc?

Have you any expereince of this yourself and what did you do?

Cheers chaps.

To add to the discussion, there's someone on here that's shown me a heck of a lot of trust and I wouldn't have the setup I do without it, I think they know who they are - I owe you a beer mate!

[Marco]

Hi Jerry,

Hmm, well, I see this thread is now in my name, but tbh I have no wish to get into an inter-forum punch-up.

There'll be no "punch up" on here. You contribute on the AoS section of 'Elsewhere on the Web' on RD's forum (very well and fairly, I would hasten to add), so what's the difference in me creating a similar discussion platform here, albeit temporarily?

The RD part of this thread will be deleted in due course, once it's served its purpose, which was simply to give him a little taste of his own medicine, and outline certain facts for the benefit of his delusions. It's very interesting how he becomes less 'talkative' when challenged somewhere where he has no control over the input. I think we all know what would eventually happen if I joined his site and tried to do the same thing there!

I'll just repeat my experience that you can get great service online, and that there can be substantial financial, practical and legal benefits in doing so.

Yes, the personal experience of going into a shop can be good, but I feel certain that there are many folk (me included) who have had bad experiences doing that.
Nowt's perfect.

Indeed - I completely agree, and the sentiments expressed in your first paragraph, above, can also apply when buying from a good dealer

Marco.