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Thread: Valve sound versus solid state...

  1. #11
    Join Date: Nov 2008

    Location: North Down /Northern Ireland/ UK

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    I'm Neil.

    Default I could not add anything to the above ^^^^^

    HI Anthony TD

    Valve amplifiers be it single ended or push-pull, have long been thought of by many as superior beasts to solid state…whether their use be musical instrument related, or purely for audio replay, but what is it that still makes them more desirable to a growing number of musicians and audiophiles world wide than often the best of what solid state has to offer?

    Well, here are some positive reasons. First off, valve designs produce predominantly low order harmonics (which is musically related); while solid state designs generally produce a full range of harmonic distortion, including the objectionable high order harmonics. This is due to a number of factors, including the transformer output of valve designs, and the large amounts of negative (electronic) feedback required in solid state designs, in comparison, valve designs need very little negative feedback, and some good sounding amps don't use any at all!

    Circuit design undoubtedly plays an important role, valve circuits are often less complex and laid out differently, therefore It can be argued that simplicity is usually best, as the length and complexity can change the inductance and capacitance of a circuit. A more complex circuit will have a more complex sonic distortion characteristic. Minimalist single ended valve amps for example typically have a dominant very simple harmonic distortion spectrum. Complex modern transistor designs often have low level but extremely complex harmonic distortion spectra.

    Another advantage of most valve amplifier designs is the high input impedance typically 100k in modern designs and as much as 1 Meg ohm in classic designs. By contrast, solid state amplifiers may have much lower input impedances, some as low as 20k This implies that it requires more energy to excite the input of a typical transistor amplifier to any given voltage than it does a typical valve amplifier. If sensitivity to small signals is a significant goal, then valve designs will typically outperform transistor designs.

    Valve amplifiers in general do not need to use as much negative feedback as transistor amplifiers, and while some will argue [and rightly so in some cases] that the absence of negative feedback slightly increases harmonic distortion, by limiting the amount of negative feedback, it avoids instability, as well as slew rate and bandwidth limitations imposed by dominant-pole compensation in transistor amplifiers.

    Valves versus transistors when driven hard distort quite differently, and it is well known and documented that valves clip more softly than transistors therefore allowing higher levels of distortion to be tolerated whilst still being able to portray the complex harmonic structure of for example a musical instrument..
    I could not have said it any better....

    And there is also ........





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    Regards D S D L-----Neil
    Last edited by Spectral Morn; 17-01-2009 at 23:29.
    Regards Neil

  2. #12
    Join Date: Mar 2008

    Location: Galashiels

    Posts: 13,701
    I'm inthescottishmafia.

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    I have six amps at the moment,five of which are valve.The sand amp is an old wooden sleeved Sugden a21.Nice little amp,but cannot compete with the valve amps to my ears.I have two PP amps,both WAD kit jobbies-the KEL84 and an original WAD 300b.The single ended amps are a DIY copy of the old WAD 4watt SE,a Mr Liang 845 se and finally an Audioromy 813 se.On my system,the 813 easily sounds the best,probably partly to do witht the fact that my statics need a bit of power,and the 813 outputs a claimed 45 watts.
    One thing with valve amps is that not only do you have the valves versus transistors thing,you get a further split with SE and PP.I do own two PP amps,but have to say I ultimately prefer SE.It just seems to have a naturalness and magic that PP cannot equal.I have read in the past that the distortion produced by DHT's in general quite closely matches the distortion characteristics of the human ear,which may explain why many prefer the way such amps sound,making them sound more "real" to human ears.Even Marco was impressed with the 813! The 813 is a directly heated tetrode,and in the amp I have they are wired in triode mode,and it does sound like a DHT in many ways.I've been told that the 813 is Andy Grove's (designer of many Audio Note and WAD amps amongst others) favourite valve and I can see why.Next step for me is to build a copy of Nick Gorham's 211 A2 amp,but using the 813,as if this cheapie chinese amp can sound so good,a proper design with top-rank components and transformers should sound sublime!

  3. #13
    Join Date: May 2008

    Location: Bristol, UK

    Posts: 9,962
    I'm Nick.

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    Is 'sand' just another term for solid state?
    Nick
    My system...


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  4. #14
    Join Date: Mar 2008

    Location: Galashiels

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    I'm inthescottishmafia.

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    Yes,sorry,it refers to the silicon used in transistors,hence "sand".Just a colloquial expression commonly used by valve amp afficionados.

  5. #15
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Location: South Wales

    Posts: 9,151
    I'm NotTakingLifeTooSeriouslyTheseDays.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ali Tait View Post
    I have six amps at the moment,five of which are valve.The sand amp is an old wooden sleeved Sugden a21.Nice little amp,but cannot compete with the valve amps to my ears.I have two PP amps,both WAD kit jobbies-the KEL84 and an original WAD 300b.The single ended amps are a DIY copy of the old WAD 4watt SE,a Mr Liang 845 se and finally an Audioromy 813 se.On my system,the 813 easily sounds the best,probably partly to do witht the fact that my statics need a bit of power,and the 813 outputs a claimed 45 watts.
    One thing with valve amps is that not only do you have the valves versus transistors thing,you get a further split with SE and PP.I do own two PP amps,but have to say I ultimately prefer SE.It just seems to have a naturalness and magic that PP cannot equal.I have read in the past that the distortion produced by DHT's in general quite closely matches the distortion characteristics of the human ear,which may explain why many prefer the way such amps sound,making them sound more "real" to human ears.Even Marco was impressed with the 813! The 813 is a directly heated tetrode,and in the amp I have they are wired in triode mode,and it does sound like a DHT in many ways.I've been told that the 813 is Andy Grove's (designer of many Audio Note and WAD amps amongst others) favourite valve and I can see why.Next step for me is to build a copy of Nick Gorham's 211 A2 amp,but using the 813,as if this cheapie chinese amp can sound so good,a proper design with top-rank components and transformers should sound sublime!
    hi ali,
    the diffrence as you quite rightly acknowledged between push-pull and single ended is quite distinct, and one of the reasons put forward for this is, push-pull output stages predominently cancel out even harmonics, and thus can to a degree reduce the natural 2nd and higher even harmonics found in the original music being re-produced, single ended on the other hand does not have this cancelation effect on the even harmonics, and hence they tend to sound more natural to the human ear. but with both technologies there are trade off's and in both the problem of odd harmonics still need to be addressed... feedback is unfortunetly a necesary evil in controling un-wanted harmonics that were not present in the original signal, and also used properly it can and is used for reducing the output impedence of the amp, making it more suitable for controling cone movements of the loudspeaker.
    anthony,TD...

  6. #16
    Join Date: Mar 2008

    Location: Galashiels

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    I'm inthescottishmafia.

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    Agreed Antony,what you say is quite correct.However it's not an issue for me as I use 'statics.Both the PP amps I have are superb sounding.The KEL84 is a true giant-killer (like Stan's DAC!) and a superbly musical amp.I would say it would walk all over anything commercial up to a couple of grand,possibly quite a lot more,and the 300b PP is a superb amp too,and quite a no-compromise design with intestage transformers etc.
    However,subjectively to my ears PP amps often sound muddled and flat in the midrange compared to SE.I can see how many would prefer the generally greater authority in the bass you get from PP(on conventional speakers for the reasons you stated),but that's not a real priority for me.It's that indefinable magic that you only seem to get from a good SE amp that wins my heart every time.Nothing I've heard to date beats it.As I've said before,I use valves because they sound better than anything else.If I came across a sand amp that sounded better,I'd use it.Valves are not the most user friendly things!

  7. #17
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

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    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    It's that indefinable magic that you only seem to get from a good SE amp that wins my heart every time.Nothing I've heard to date beats it.
    "To date" is the key phrase there, I feel.

    It'll be interesting to see what you make of the Copper amp in my system, Ali (bring your SETs along to compare). The Spendors are valve-friendly. I know exactly what you mean, but to my ears Anthony's Copper amp gives the best of both worlds and thus has quite a beguiling and spell-binding way with all types of music. "All types" is also another key phrase here

    One should never say never in hi-fi, and I certainly don't either with SE...

    Marco.
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  8. #18
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Location: Down South

    Posts: 2,413
    I'm Neal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anthonyTD View Post
    .... push-pull output stages predominently cancel out even harmonics, and thus can to a degree reduce the natural 2nd and higher even harmonics found in the original music being re-produced, single ended on the other hand does not have this cancelation effect on the even harmonics, and hence they tend to sound more natural to the human ear....
    anthony,TD...
    PP output stages self cancel 2nd harmonics generated in the o/p stage only...they don't cancel out 2nd harmonics generated by the input or driver stage...as those harmonics are now part of the signal.

  9. #19
    Join Date: May 2008

    Location: Bristol, UK

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    I'm Nick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ali Tait View Post
    Yes,sorry,it refers to the silicon used in transistors,hence "sand".Just a colloquial expression commonly used by valve amp afficionados.
    LOL I figured that was it - but what of germanium transistors
    Nick
    My system...


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  10. #20
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Location: North East UK

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    I'm InSpace.

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    That would be a 'flower amp'...
    Shian7
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    broken again - still it's there:
    the moon on the water.

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