John Westlake outlines REALITY to the 'deaf daftees'...!

[Macca]

What if it was re-written to say:

'The sonic differences between a competent £150 transistor power amp and a competent £10000 transistor power amp are so small they cannot be detected in a blind test'

That could easily be true. Valve amps tends to get excluded from such challenges - also from John Welders link point 7 is very crucial:

7. All amps must be brand name, standard production, linear voltage amplifiers. This does not exclude high current amps. Amps can not be modified and must meet factory specs. "

In other words Marco could not take his Copper amp along. And many others would be excluded too. Why? Because they do sound different, I guess.

[Marco]

In other words Marco could not take his Copper amp along.

Ah, but there you're wrong, amigo. My Copper amp has not been in any way modified outside of the remit of the designer. In effect, no-one but Anthony TD has worked on it!

As for the rest, sure. However, if you've ever heard a *really* good £10,000 amplifier, then comparing it sonically to ANY £150 commercial one, I'm sorry, is nothing other than laughable.

Marco.

[YNWaN]

In reality, we agree more than we disagree, eh Mark?

Marco.

Do we disagree....?

[DSJR]

Unfortunately, those were exactly my thoughs when I heard it.
__________________

The dogmatic stance adopted (and vociferously promoted) by some, so called 'objectivists', does more to harm the investigation and development of hi-fi performance than any other aspect of this 'hobby' of ours.

The dogmatic stance you refer to is also product driven, where these people have a particular product to flog and promote its idiosyncracies as "correct" when in fact, it has measurable shortcomings..

By the way, I believe the Behringer amp DOES have oddities about it which are PERFECTLY measurable from what I've read about it, the gain controls being a starting point IIRC. You don't get owt for nowt in this world and even Chinese manufacture doesn't mean "Krell/Levinson" for a hundred smackers

There's little that can't be measured, I firmly believe, but the real art in creating long lasting and well loved product is in deciding HOW the compromises are going to be balanced up. It's done in good loudspeakers all the time and was done as a matter of course when all our amp favourites were designed and, of course, is taken for granted in vinyl sources. I just don't believe that you can design truly great gear by numbers, as certain firms would have you believe, either because they lack modern and costly test gear, or because they don't know what they're listening to in the first place.

[Marco]

Do we disagree....?

Only when it comes to T/T mats and belt-drive turntables!

Marco.

[Marco]

The hi-fi objectivity zealots seem to believe that everything that can be measured has been measured. In reality, genuine scientific investigation is an ongoing process and new forms of measurement, and methods of interpreting said measurements, are continuously being developed. A good example is the measurement protocol that Paul R has recently developed for measuring turntable speed stability; this is very much more critical than traditional wow and flutter measurements and does genuinely highlight the modifications made to drive systems.

I am genuinely all for measurement of equipment, but I am not prepared to subjugate my subjective experience to the demands of an oscilloscope. All amplifiers that measured the same probably would sound the same; however, as they obviously do not sound the same we are obviously not making all the required measurements needed to assess an amplifier's true performance. Alternatively, we are making the correct types of measurements, but are not applying them, or interpreting, them in the correct manner.

The dogmatic stance adopted (and vociferously promoted) by some, so called 'objectivists', does more to harm the investigation and development of hi-fi performance than any other aspect of this 'hobby' of ours.

Quality, Mark - particularly the last paragraph, and the bit highlighted in red, which with your permission, I may add to my signature!

Marco.

[YNWaN]

Only when it comes to T/T mats and belt-drive turntables!

Marco.

Well, I guess you are entitled to be wrong about some things

[Marco]

Aye!

Can I add the bit I said to my sig, daddee - pretty puhleese?

Marco.

[sq225917]

I have a lot of time for Serge's view. Sorry, let me rephrase that, I've had to waste a lot of time reading Serge's views on various fora.

I geddit, he's a bit deaf, doesn't have any personal preference for sound and will simply take the measurements give him. That's great for him, now he can STFU and stop posting it on every single thread about sound quality of pertaining to the individual sound of any component.

As Neal very neatly summed up on the first page, all amps aren't driven at constant speed in a straight line, all day every day. In fact I'd warrant that all of us listen with our amps drifting in and out of clipping.









I know Ynwan does, he loves it loud.

[Marco]

I'm wholly in agreement, Simon. Perhaps you could tell Serge your views, on pfm? If not, then enjoy your freedom to do so here!

TBH, fluffy old Serge isn't the worst offender on pfm of spouting blinkered objectivist dogma. For that, there's a certain equipment 'repair man' I could mention, but won't...

Marco.