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Thread: John Westlake outlines REALITY to the 'deaf daftees'...!

  1. #11
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    As for the Scalford system in question (and we discussed it at the time IIRC) it may or may not have been anodyne, my fascination was that it was clean sounding i.e not distorted despite the fact that it was using some Behringer amps, which, when I tried them, sounded very nasty indeed.
    Luck? Or perhaps if one takes as little care in setting up a system, as I witnessed in that room, the sheer blandness of the sound made nullifies the distortion?

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

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  2. #12
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,779
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Luck? Or perhaps if one takes as little care in setting up a system, as I witnessed in that room, the sheer blandness of the sound made nullifies the distortion?

    Marco.
    You really didn't like it, did you? I wish I had had the time to listen longer but I only spotted the room as we were leaving and the intention was to get back to the record stall before it packed up. I may well have come to the samer conclusion as you, I guess. Anyway I think you should invite Serge to post on here, would be fun
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  3. #13
    Join Date: Apr 2009

    Location: Sheffield

    Posts: 2,026
    I'm Confused.

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    It does not matter what the charts and specs and tests tell us, all that matters is whether we like what we hear, no?
    We tell ouselves and our new members that it does not matter what sort or value of kit we've got, it's what we hear that matters, no?
    Even when we've got the resources to upgrade (spend more on) our kit we say it is not necessary just to get a better sound, it's all abour SVPP, no?
    Then why do we pour scorn on someone who's God given (and therefore non-upgradeable) kit, his ears, do not let him appreciate the difference between an amp bought in Comet and one bought in, say, Harrods? If he's as happy with what he's hearing as we are with our's, we should be encouraging him not laughing at him.
    That is not to say we should agree with him, we should politely tell him that maybe his hearing is not as sensitive as that of the vast majority of others. As Granny used to say, "It's wicked to mock the afflicted."
    All IMHO of course.
    Dave.
    DaveK.

    My System:
    Power: Belkin PF40, Custom.hifi.cables Hydra and DC PSUs.
    Sources: Self built HTPC with Xonar ST sound card, NAD T585 multi disc player, Sony BDP-S350, Squeezebox Touch, Techncs SL1210 (mod'd) + Nagaoka MP30, Thomson Sky HD box.
    Amps etc.: 2 x Mini-T amps, MF-X10D Valve buffer clone, StanDAC 7520/Caiman (mod'd).
    Speakers: Mission 774s with added super tweeters
    Cables: best I can afford and likely to change except Homar's RF attenuated co-ax's and Mark Grant USB and HDMI cables. I also like silver i/cs and speaker cable.

  4. #14
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    You really didn't like it, did you? I wish I had had the time to listen longer but I only spotted the room as we were leaving and the intention was to get back to the record stall before it packed up. I may well have come to the samer conclusion as you, I guess. Anyway I think you should invite Serge to post on here, would be fun...
    Lol... He's very welcome to join, but I know that he wouldn't touch this place with a bargepole, simply because staunchly subjective views on audio, such as are the norm here, are a complete anathema to him.

    As for the system in that room, I live in hope that one day I could live with a system that has been assembled solely on measurements and technical spec. Sadly, that day has yet to come!

    Anyway, let's move away from discussing individuals (I've got nothing against Serge, as a person) and onto the notion of all amplifiers sounding the same, or preferably what I'd rather discuss: the idea that ANY amplifier could ever truly be sonically 'transparent'

    For me, that's an impossibility, as I believe that every component an audio signal negotiates, affects its integrity slightly, thus colouring it to some degree, and so the cumulative effect of this process, throughout the signal path, gives an amplifier (or any other audio component, for that matter) a unique 'sonic signature'.

    Try measuring for that, of course, and you'll get precisely nowhere, unless you know exactly what to measure and how to do it. Aside from that, of course, we already know that not everything that we can genuinely hear in audio can currently be measured, but perhaps not if your 'scientific religion' tells you otherwise!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  5. #15
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Deleted

    Posts: 6,585
    I'm Deleted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    For me, that's an impossibility, as I believe that every component an audio signal negotiates, affects its integrity slightly, thus colouring it to some degree,...
    +1
    Account Deleted

  6. #16
    Join Date: Aug 2010

    Location: Montseny National Park, Catalonia

    Posts: 3,254
    I'm John.

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    I can’t help wondering why when such debates arise many contributors completely ignore what the major protagonists on the “objective” side have stated.
    I have looked very hard and I’ve still to find anyone involved in any of the testing or comparisons who has said “all amplifiers sound the same”.
    What has been written is that under the given test conditions very few people have been able to differentiate between one competently designed amp and another.
    What this means, is of course open to debate.

    Shouting yer deaf, or delusional or yer systems shite doesn’t really answer the question of why people don’t hear any differences if they are there to be heard.

    What such tests may illustrate is that the differences are small. This doesn’t make them non existent.

    I happen to think the most published test conditions are entirely reasonable and conditions I would aim for in setting up a home system.
    Here they are.
    http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/rcrules.htm

    Do I think all amps sound the same? No.
    Do I think all amps sound the same under the above conditions? Yes. So far, in my rather limited experience I have yet to be able to pick one from another.
    Does this make me deaf? Apparently not given there are very few reported positive outcomes.

    Of course, I can substitute an amplifier into my system and notice a difference, just not if I set them up as close to the test conditions as possible.

    If you (general) think you can easily pick out your amp under the test conditions go ahead and take the test.
    Single spur balanced Mains. Self built music server with 3 seperate linear PSU, Intel i5, 16 GB RAM no hard drive (various Linux OS). Benchmark Dac2 HGC, single ended XLR interconnects/Belkin cable. Exposure 21RC Pre, Super 18 Power (recap & modified). Modded World Audio HD83 HP amp. Hand built Monitors with external crossovers , Volt 250 bass & ABR, Scanspeak 13M8621 Mid & Scanspeak D2905/9300 Hi. HD595 & Beyer 880 (600 ohm) cans.

    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.
    -Bertrand Russel

    John.

  7. #17
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,779
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveK View Post
    It does not matter what the charts and specs and tests tell us, all that matters is whether we like what we hear, no?
    We tell ouselves and our new members that it does not matter what sort or value of kit we've got, it's what we hear that matters, no?
    Even when we've got the resources to upgrade (spend more on) our kit we say it is not necessary just to get a better sound, it's all abour SVPP, no?
    .
    I'm a big believer in SSPV especially with regards to amplification. And so are you, Dave, given you are using a brace of mini-T amps at less than £100. Now I could chuck more money at my system if I felt so inclined however I try to resist temptation. If I did/when I do succumb that money will be thrown at the source and possibly the loudspeakers becuase that is where to get the most improvement IME. I wouldn't bother to replace the power amp unless it died or something with a lot more power on tap came up at a good price.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  8. #18
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YNWaN View Post
    +1
    In reality, we agree more than we disagree, eh Mark?

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  9. #19
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Hi John,

    IIf you (general) think you can easily pick out your amp under the test conditions go ahead and take the test.
    Or alternatively, you could just use your ears and trust what they tell you (within reason)! Also, examine the specific text, which I chose to quote from the thread on pfm:

    My criticism of modern HiFi is that in technical terms there is no sonic difference between a £150 power amplifier and a £10,000 power amplifier, as both are transparent.
    For me, anyone who writes the above on a high-end audio forum, populated in the main by experienced and discerning enthusiasts, and believes it, is leaving himself wide-open for a few chuckles!!

    Also, what is it about what John Westlake wrote that you disagree with? For me, what he wrote made perfect sense.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  10. #20
    Join Date: Apr 2008

    Location: Cheshire, UK

    Posts: 2,829
    I'm Clive.

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    Neal's 40mph car on a straight road is a great analogy.

    I know I can hear differences between different SS amps in my system. Less so with traditional amps with multiple output transistors and more so with T-amps (even if they have multiple output transistors).

    Multiple (ie > than one pair) output transistors create a haze what clouds any differences. Also, so much depends on the speakers in use, mine are painfully revealing of a below par amp but some speakers can cloud the issue to the extent that no differences are apparent.
    TT 1 Trans-Fi Salvation with magnetic bearing + Trans-Fi Terminator T3Pro + London Reference
    TT 2 Garrard 301 with NWA main bearing + Audiomods Series Six 10.5" + Ortofon 2M Mono SE
    Digital Lindemann Bridge + Gustard R26 with LB external clock
    Pre and Power Amp EWA M40P + M40A
    Bass Amp & DSP Behringer iNuke NU3000DSP x 2
    Speakers 1 Bastanis Sagarmatha Duo with twin baffleless 15" bass drivers per side
    Speakers 2 MarkaudioSota Viotti Tower

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