John Westlake outlines REALITY to the 'deaf daftees'...!

[Marco]

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/s...&postcount=169

Nail > Head. Fucking YEE-HAH!!

From the thread, a 'deaf daftee' writes:

My criticism of modern HiFi is that in technical terms there is no sonic difference between a £150 power amplifier and a £10,000 power amplifier, as both are transparent.

I really do despair for some so-called 'objectivists'...... Why they even bother attempting to build a half-decent hi-fi system is beyond me!!

Excessive ear wax (and a dogmatic worshiping at the altar of test equipment) has a lot to answer for, I feel.

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/s...&postcount=169

Nail > Head. Fucking YEE-HAH!!

From the thread, a 'deafy' writes:



I really do despair for some so-called 'objectivists'...... Why they even bother attempting to build a half-decent hi-fi system is beyond me!!

Marco.

+1

[Macca]

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/s...&postcount=169

Nail > Head. Fucking YEE-HAH!!

From the thread, a 'deafy' writes:



I really do despair for some so-called 'objectivists'...... Why they even bother attempting to build a half-decent hi-fi system is beyond me!!

Marco.

I had a chat with the gentleman in question (and he is a gentleman) at Scalford show back in March. I had to butonhole him as I could not understand how he got those Behringer A500s to sound clean and not like a bag of spanners being smashed against a wall - which is what mine sound like. I thought he must have modified them. But he hadn't. His suggestion was that they didn't like my Croft and it was distorting into them. Which is possible, I have not experimented further to date.

For the record I have some sympathy with the 'all transistor power amps sound the same when not clipping' having tried a Croft 7 series, Williams dual mono and a Linn Lk100 in my system, all with the Croft pre, the differences were slight and wholly inconsequential. The key words to note in that statement are 'Transistor', 'power' and 'clipping' i.e it is a qualified statement.

Just in case anyone thinks I have gone over to the (objectivist) dark side.

[NRG]

Yes, he has a point, if you constrain the operating parameters of the amplifiers under test IE: power output, distortion % and harmonic mix, none reactive load, flat frequency response within accepted limits, not clipping on peaks etc etc then I'm sure that a whole swath of amplifiers would indeed be virtually indistinguishable from each other.

It would be like trying to road test a bunch of same class cars with similar power, tyres etc driven at 40mph in a straight line with no cornering, braking or acceleration allowed...they would feel more of less the same.

Luckily life is not straight jacketed like that and we know in reality amplifiers, DACs, PSUs etc do in fact sound different..

[DaveK]

And who are we to pour scorn on minority opinions posted on another audio forum? Is it strictly in accordance with our ethos? AoS has it's minority of members who post their views which are often at odds with perceived wisdom - do we really have to go looking on other forums to find them?
Just my opinion .
Dave.

[Marco]

Hi Martin,

I had a chat with the gentleman in question (and he is a gentleman) at Scalford show back in March.

Undoubtedly, but I simply cannot agree in any way with his views on audio, quite simply because my personal experience (and ears) tell me the polar opposite!

I had to butonhole him as I could not understand how he got those Behringer A500s to sound clean and not like a bag of spanners being smashed against a wall - which is what mine sound like.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree there, as a friend and I also heard the system in question, and "anodyne" or "bereft of merit" would be giving it a compliment!

As for Behinger amps, sorry, but I've not heard any yet that I would classify as hi-fi. I simply wouldn't give any of the things house room.

For the record I have some sympathy with the 'all transistor power amps sound the same when not clipping' having tried a Croft 7 series, Williams dual mono and a Linn Lk100 in my system, all with the Croft pre, the differences were slight and wholly inconsequential. The key words to note in that statement are 'Transistor', 'power' and 'clipping' i.e it is a qualified statement.

If that's what you hear, then that's what you hear, mate. I've no reason to doubt it. Of course, I wasn't there to hear what you did.

All I can say is that in 25+ years of having an interest in high-end audio (and by that I mean better than what's sold in Comet, etc), every amplifier I've ever used has sounded different, sometimes the difference was subtle, sometimes very apparent, but different they have always been!

Quite simply, if that's not been the case for anyone, then only three things are possible:

1) Their hearing acuity isn't up to the job.

2) Their system doesn't have the necessary resolution, in order to highlight the differences. A combination of 1) and 2) could also be the case.

3) Their 'scientific religion' won’t allow them to believe that which is non-intrinsic to the half-truths and dogma, common amongst the beliefs of 'measurists' (note how I didn't use the term 'objectivists'), often mistakenly portrayed as fact.

End of!!

Marco.

[YNWaN]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree there, as a friend and I also heard the system in question, and "anodyne" or "bereft of merit" would be giving it a compliment!

Unfortunately, those were exactly my thoughs when I heard it.
__________________

The hi-fi objectivity zealots seem to believe that everything that can be measured has been measured. In reality, genuine scientific investigation is an ongoing process and new forms of measurement, and methods of interpreting said measurements, are continuously being developed. A good example is the measurement protocol that Paul R has recently developed for measuring turntable speed stability; this is very much more critical than traditional wow and flutter measurements and does genuinely highlight the modifications made to drive systems.

I am genuinely all for measurement of equipment, but I am not prepared to subjugate my subjective experience to the demands of an oscilloscope. All amplifiers that measured the same probably would sound the same; however, as they obviously do not sound the same we are obviously not making all the required measurements needed to assess an amplifier's true performance. Alternatively, we are making the correct types of measurements, but are not applying them, or interpreting, them in the correct manner.

The dogmatic stance adopted (and vociferously promoted) by some, so called 'objectivists', does more to harm the investigation and development of hi-fi performance than any other aspect of this 'hobby' of ours.

[Marco]

And who are we to pour scorn on minority opinions posted on another audio forum?

They're not "minority opinions". If you read a lot of other forums, you'll find plenty of people holding such views. They're entitled to their views, of course, as I am to highlight and disagree with them.

Is it strictly in accordance with our ethos?

Yes, it's common practice sometimes for forums to refer to a thread posted elsewhere, and subsequently to discuss the contents of that thread.

AoS has it's minority of members who post their views which are often at odds with perceived wisdom - do we really have to go looking on other forums to find them?

If what's discussed is likely to be of interest to people here, then there isn't a problem, just as if people choose to link to discussions here on other sites, and do the same thing, then that's their prerogative.

Marco.

[Macca]

), every amplifier I've ever used has sounded different, sometimes the difference was subtle, sometimes very apparent, but different they have always been!
.

I did say the differences were 'slight' I did not say there was no difference at all.

As for the Scalford system in question (and we discussed it at the time IIRC) it may or may not have been anodyne, my fascination was that it was clean sounding i.e not distorted despite the fact that it was using some Behringer amps, which, when I tried them, sounded very nasty indeed.

[Marco]

Yes, he has a point, if you constrain the operating parameters of the amplifiers under test IE: power output, distortion % and harmonic mix, none reactive load, flat frequency response within accepted limits, not clipping on peaks etc etc then I'm sure that a whole swath of amplifiers would indeed be virtually indistinguishable from each other.

It would be like trying to road test a bunch of same class cars with similar power, tyres etc driven at 40mph in a straight line with no cornering, braking or acceleration allowed...they would feel more of less the same.

Luckily life is not straight jacketed like that and we know in reality amplifiers, DACs, PSUs etc do in fact sound different..

Succinct and to the point, as usual, Neal!

Marco.