Are we seeking the first signs of a culture of un-greed in our industry?

[muffinman]

Howard mentioned the mambas in the initial post.
Dave at greenhome sent me a set of these to test and review. at the end of the test period Dave rightly felt, as did i, that the cables were 'worth' more. i'm not sure how many Dave has managed to shift but i think it's fair to say that giving a pair or two away generated interest, if not sales.
i have no idea what cables Howard was selling but as i'm in the market for one i/c and i respect his and many others opinions, i probably would have given them a bash on spec and given, by all accounts - a glowing report. which may have generated sales.
i'm not attempting to change Howards decision btw
so yes, lowering prices can generate interest which can only be good

love and peace

[Dave Cawley]

Well, here is a message of good will from a nice dealer! And a link to the wonderful A.N.T. phono stages.

www.soundhifi.com/phonostage.html#ant

If you mention Art of Sound, and you are listed in the members area, we will give free UK postage and 10% off until the end of this January!

Don't you just love us! Oh! and you can buy as many as you like..................

Regards

Dave

[Marco]

Stan,

I know of one chap who bought a £10K CDP and then spent the next 6 months trying to off load it. Even at the last noticed price of £2,900 there were no takers.
This got me thinking. Maybe it as a badge thing for many of the audiophools. To be able to post a pic in a forum gallery showing all that expensive gear stacked on top of each other.

As they say:, 'Nail, head'! Oh, and I hope you aren't referring to me recently posting pictures of my system on a forum for the first time in about 5 years

No, for some bizarre reason certain people appear to get a feel good factor from owning something 'prestigious'; fine if it's a Bentley car or a Patek Philippe watch because you're getting what you're paying for in terms of materials and performance, and those items genuinely deserve the label of 'prestigious', but with hi-fi the aim is surely somewhat different?

It's comments like this nonsense from Ken Kessler (which I'm sure is representative of how some think) which I find utterly ridiculous. In the 2008 Yearbook of HFN he writes of the Nagra CDP:

Forgetting the reasons I wanted this player even before switching it on - the construction, the feel of the controls, the Nagra badge [WTF?? ] - and trying hard not to be seduced by the operation of the tray, I knew this player would hit me as hard as Liv Tyler in a sheer negligee. Sometimes, you just sense what's going to happen. It only took the gorgeous, open, smooth and enveloping sound of Mofi's new gold CD of Marc Cohn's eponymous debut to demonstrate he CDP's worthyness as part of the Nagra family.

What's that all about? Can someone please enlighten me? Hi-fi equipment for me is a tool to do a particular job - nothing more, nothing less. You want the best tools you can afford to do the job of course, but hi-fi equipment and its 'feel' or 'badge' is not something you have a love affair with!!

There comes to a point where 'ultimate' audio performance has long since been achieved and one is paying for nothing much more than 'audiophile jewellery'. If the goal is the best audio performance, and ultimately the greater enjoyment of our music collection, throwing cash at 'audiophile jewellery' is a complete and utter waste of money. Therefore if the badge snobs enjoy being fleeced like this then good luck to those who fleece them!

I had a few visitors round over the new year. One of them looked at my TT and asked why I still had it in my rack. He hadn't seen anyone play vinyl for more than a decade. Then he looked at my NS1000M and commented that Yamaha speakers were no good. I should get some KEf or B&W. I quickly realized this guy was being educated by what he read in hifi mags.

It's that kind of nonsensical thinking and superficial image of hi-fi which AOS is the complete antithesis of. Hopefully as our Google ratings continue to significantly increase daily, and we're being exposed more and more to the outside world, what's written here might start rubbing off on the uninitiated...

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Marco

It is entirely possible and not mutually exclusive to have both, quality sound and drop dead looks.

Oracle Delphi Turntable (any MK. In my eyes Mk4 ). To see is to want. To hear is to know, what your eye told you was right. IMHO.

Pathos Classic One mk 2 Sonic bargain drop dead looks and was a bargain at £1350. I once had a couple come into the shop on a Saturday. The lady asked "what it ?" the Pathos was. I told her a valve hybrid integrated Amplifier. "Can I buy it ". Yes I said, what system do you have ? "I don't have one I just want it for its looks " was her reply I sold her Speakers and a cdp to go with it, (nothing dear, just so she could use it).

And there are more examples.

I know Nick, Beechwood will have an opinion on Nagra, more the Reel to reels, I suspect. I do know what Ken Kessler is talking about. Does that make me Sad ? Maybe.(not the Liv Tyler bit though)

If you want to say that there is kit out there which is grossly overpriced. Yes compared to its sound, I would agree.

Regards D S D L---- Neil

[StanleyB]

It is entirely possible and not mutually exclusive to have both, quality sound and drop dead looks.

For some reason or another it reminded me of my former girlfriend.

[Marco]

Hi Neil,

Of course it's possible to have quality sound and "drop dead" looks without paying silly money. I own some examples of such equipment!

But there's a sensible balance to be had... At the end of the day, genuine enthusiasts, whilst appreciating looks to certain extent, see the equipment itself as merely a means to an end - and that end is to enjoy music, not to own an 'audio sculpture'.

My Mana supports are a prime example of this system building methodology. Ugly as sin? Perhaps, but they're merely tools for doing a specific job - and that job (isolating my equipment from the effects of vibration) they do very well indeed. I couldn't give a damn what they look like!!

KK's scribblings on the Nagra CDP are simply nothing but romantic nonsense.

I know Nick Beechwood will have an opinion on Nagra.

Indeed. But their tape machines are a totally different ball game from their CD players!

£9k for some mass-produced OEM components in a fancy box? Give me a break!!

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

Sorry, that is just to cryptic Stan.

Regards D S D L---- Neil

Hi Marco. I like Romantic nonsense. I like Ken's style of writing. The problem with audio is that in order to get that last few % or not requires you (more often than not)to spend a lot. Is that sensible, depends on your point of view. Buying a Bentley or such in my opinion is madness, or on a watch that just tells the Time. It is possible to get fantastic sound for the price of the Nagra CDP, Yes. As I have not heard one I can't say if its worth it or not. The problem with digital, is it does take a big jump in cost to get substantial improvements. What is achievable to day for less than a Grand is amazing and to do a lot better you need to double. But once you go over, say £4000, you will have to go to £10000. And the improvement is no where near as big as between £1000 and £4000. IMHE

[John]

If we could get away from branding and the concept that the higher the price the better the equipment will sound. All the systems I heard that I love has been quirky in some respect and have not been about branding.
One reason why I enjoy this forum is that there is room for people to follow there own path as well as the level of open debate .
I really think the whole branding of high end has caused a thinking that only the most expensive equipment can get you a decent sound. I hope one of the positives that comes out of the recisions is a turn around in values

[Spectral Morn]

Hi John

I agree with you Brand alone is not a guarantee of quality( however it will inform you as to what its products will sound like, if you are familiar with other designs in the range), neither will cost alone get you brilliant sound. System synergy and the room factor will be the final arbiters of the whole. However as a general rule born out by 20 years listening to all sorts of kit both professionally and at home, in my own set ups. Certain areas do benefit from having more cash spent on them, than others.

However these days only the last few % cost thousands in the case of digital. From what I have read (not heard) Stans Dac seems to be such a product. Big bang for a small buck. Pure Sounds P10 phono stage is amazing too.

Regards D S D L----- Neil

[Beechwoods]

I know Nick, Beechwood will have an opinion on Nagra, more the Reel to reels, I suspect. I do know what Ken Kessler is talking about. Does that make me Sad ? Maybe.(not the Liv Tyler bit though)

My experience of Nagra outside of their tape decks is very limited. What I do know is that their tape decks are workhorses, and the looks and drop-dead design reflects their utility. They are built to sound great, be ultra-reliable, knocked around on location and be serviceable in the back of a van I'm really not so sure about their pre-amps or CDP's. Like some of the good looking valve amps, the aesthetic beauty of the Nagra tape decks is a by-product of their function, not made to look good by designers working to a marketeer's brief but designed to function well and be beautiful by engineers who knew what they were doing.

And we are allowed to enjoy that beauty! I'll forgive Ken Kessler's artistic licence - it's all good fun - but I would be wary of anyone pre-judging something based on it's badge

I suppose what we might be seeing is that there are signs that kit is moving to a more functional aesthetic, rather than one more form before function. I'd imagine that fancy case-work and design for designs sake has been a significant cost driver in a lot of high-end gear. There's certainly a significant number of people out there who no longer care so much for kit that 'looks high-end' when their friends come round. They're more aware that great sound can come from plain packages.

And that sounds like my ex-girlfriend