The Great Denon DL103 Debate...

[Marco]

Most interesting, Howard!

Sastus, that's a bit daft is it not?

I drew David's attention to a comment Noel made about the 103 in this month's HFW and asked him for his views in a perfectly reasonable manner. His reaction by starting this thread, instead of simply tackling my earlier post, is not my fault!

Marco.

[Togil]

It all just proves the extremely subjective nature of vinyl replay.

[Marco]

Indeed, Hans!

Marco.

[sastusbulbas]

Quote Marco,
Sastus, that's a bit daft is it not?



I think one HAS to take a staunch stand on such matters, such trivial tit for tat is what starts World Wars!

It must not be allowed, in fact, I may well have to commission a time machine, just to go back in time and assassinate the designer of the Denon 103D cart, we know not where such debaucle may lead, this 103D debate could well be a catalyst that starts WWIII. Far better to decide not to go near one. Don't get involved is what someone said about something once.

For similar reasons I will never buy Tiger Eye veneer B&W speakers, as tigers are on the decline. Look what happened to Teak and Black ash! (When is the last time you saw a living walnut or black tree?)

No sorry Marco I cannot agree, the 103D is not a good cart, otherwise such naughty behaviour would not arise through it's discussion.

[Beechwoods]

I considered a 103 but it was too quiet. Not enough volts came out, so I am happy to stick with my vintage Shure combo until Denon see fit to turbo-charge their protegé.

Sorry Marco.

[Marco]

<Snigger>

Marco.

[David Price]

Thanks Howard - this is *just* what I needed to illustrate my point!

Basically Marco has been saying to me, off-thread, XYZ.

He goes on to say, XYZ.

Howard, your reminding us of Adam's show report blows Marco's conspiracy theory out of the water - because if we "weren't allowed" to report favourably on the DL103 then I would have pulled/rewritten Adam's copy now, wouldn't I?

Marco - as I've said time and time again, there is NO conspiracy to do down this cartridge in Hi-Fi World. My point is simply that some of us don't like it and have said so in the mag, which we are perfectly at liberty so to do, as is Adam who liked Howard's system.

The fact that you obviously disagree so strongly with Noel's and my view seems to have lead you to come up with some sort of Dr. Evil style idea that 'dark forces' are acting against this poor innocent cartridge in our magazine. I really don't know what I can do more to convince you that Noel and I don't like it for reasons of sonics alone...

I hope that other readers of this post will be able to see the wood from the trees here. Surely reasonable folk will agree that we - like anyone else - have a perfect right to express a subjective opinion without having our motives/reputation impugned ("for fear of upsetting someone or something")? Marco it's a very big leap of logic from disagreeing with someone and casting aspersions about their integrity, isn't it? Please think about this.

Basically, on this new strand I wanted people to talk about why people like or dislike the Denon DL103 - and not start this nonsense about "well you would say that as you're obviously being controlled by some ulterior motive". But hey ho, we're back into slurs and personal attacks, aren't we? Now - as proof that life is beautifully circular, wasn't that what Malcolm Stewart was lamenting about forum behaviour in his piece that caused such consternation on another thread...?

:-O

David

[Marco]

David,

I think it's bad form to quote directly from a private email. I have edited your post accordingly. Can you please just simply answer the post of mine on the other thread (#160), tackling the necessary areas for response.

Here, I'll make it easy for you. This is exactly what I'd like you to reply to. I wrote earlier:

Lol. It's not difficult; I'm being very specific and not generalising in the slightest. Who’s been going on about forums recently? Answer: Roy Gregory and Malcolm Steward, therefore those are whom I'm referring to!

Like I said, I'd perhaps also chuck Mr Keywood into the mix after his comments below to a readers' letter about a DL-103 in this month's magazine (the chap had merely written in to say how happy he was with his new turntable and was eloquently extolling the virtues of it and the 103), to which Noel replied:

You'd be right to sell that tat ["tat" no less, eh?] Nigel and keep an eye on modern product. I well know and have used at length V15s and 3009s and they are "pleasent" shall we say. The Denon DL103 has sonic attractions perhaps, but is a grossy over rated product that is coloured and inaccurate; it's an internet special that's been talked up in the (deluded) collective conciousness [note spelling error again!]. You'd be better advised to get a good modern moving coil from Ortofon [Mr K has got Ortofon on the brain - does he have shares in the company?], Audio Technica or Dynavector [yes, perhaps just because he happens to favour the more analytical presentation of those cartridges - but does 'Nigel'?] I believe, unless you prefer romance to all else.

Now don't get me wrong, Noel's entitled to his opinion the same as anyone else, but does he have to be so insulting and unconstructive with it? "Deluded" and "tat" indeed! Poor Nigel, eh? He only wrote in to tell of his happiness with his new turntable and cartridge and was subjected to dog's abuse! I wonder if he'll be renewing his subscription?

And what's Noel's sudden obsession with "modern" this "modern", that? Does he think that all modern kit is automatically better than old stuff? I doubt it, as the same man is a valve amp and Garrard aficionado par excellence! So it's ok then to extol the virtues of "modern product" versus old in reference to cartridges, but somehow the same doesn't apply to turntables and amps from their respective eras? His views are totally inconsistent and don't seem to align with the ethos of HFW, which has always championed both new and old gear, the latter providing that it's performance is still competitive today. The 103, when properly partnered and set-up definitely comes into that category, otherwise I (and 1000s of others) wouldn't be using it!

The problem with the 103 is that magazines always make the mistake of reviewing it with a modern turntable and tonearm and judge it accordingly on that basis - it simply will not work as it should that way. It needs to be assessed in the context in which it was originally designed. Fortunately, to make the review relevant today that doesn't necessarily mean wheeling out an old SP10 or Garrard with a suitably high-mass arm to match. All one needs is a Technics SL-1200 or 1210 (preferably modified by KAB or Sound Hi-fi), fitted with a Jelco SA-750D S-shaped detachable headshell arm, and a nice high-mass headshell, like the LH-18 from Audio Technica: all 'modern' currently available equipment, and through a nice phono stage (preferably valve) which uses the necessary matching transformers, and away you go... I guarantee that if Noel (or David) heard the 103 in that context (both) their conclusions would be somewhat different!

But will they do that in order to give the 103 a fair hearing before judging, instead of arriving at ill-informed conclusions such it being "an internet special that's been talked up in the (deluded) collective conciousness" based on relative ignorance from using the wrong partnering equipment?

The funniest thing of all though, is that with Mr Keywood the words "Denon DL-103" appear to be permanently impregnated in his mind, and like a red flag to a bull goes charging off in a 'fit of rage' even when the DL-103 wasn't even being referred to.

How so?

Well, Nigel, at the end of his letter wrote:

Next stage? Enjoy the Sony as well as the LP12 and JBE Slate Series 3. And next year? Renovate/sell/exchange some or all of the rest of the collection - SL150, DENON DP2000, Mayware V, Hadcock, 228, SME 3009 Fixed, Shure V15 III, Rothwell transformer, Staglines N and K.

He never even mentioned the bloody DL-103 and yet Noel duly 'went off on one' as detailed above!!

So, I'd like to know what exactly his problem is with this particular cartridge, aside from issues regarding its sonic presentation. His innate dislike of the 103 appears to be run rather more deeply than simply not liking how it sounds...

Perhaps next time David joins us he could bring Noel with him to explain himself?

For starters will you admit to Noel making an absolute howler as described?

Once you've answered this question we can then proceed further

Marco.

[David Price]

Hi Marco - sorry, I won't do this again. I had assumed you'd said as much previously, publicly on the site. David

[Marco]

No worries. Can we start again then by you answering the above highlighted post?

Marco.