"Hooded youths, dealers, gangstas and a musical explosion"

[Neil McCauley]

FYI really and so here's an extract; "Hooded youths on street corners, dealers and gangstas, but this is not New York, this is London in the 21st Century, a city that spawned grime, a new genre of urban music from its deprived inner boroughs.

Yet grime artists were caught in a paradox, on the one hand associating with the glitz and materialism of US hip hop and on the other the reality of life on under-funded housing estates, many of which were no longer fit for purpose.

Photographer Simon Wheatley has dedicated more than 10 years to documenting the grime scene in London, capturing the lives of those whose futures would be shaped by their involvement in the movement."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/in-pictures-13608668

[John]

The link between crime and music, its an interesting topic. Is the music reflecting the reality of how they live, or does it encourage that behaviour. I think perhaps a bit of both but how much I have no idea.
Its similar to HM back in the States when the parent movement started I love HM in my younger day it helped express my sense of alienation and anger but it never inisipred me to violence, in fact it helped deal with that energy and felt liked I belonged so I always question this link

[WAD62]

Yet grime artists were caught in a paradox, on the one hand associating with the glitz and materialism of US hip hop and on the other the reality of life on under-funded housing estates, many of which were no longer fit for purpose.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/in-pictures-13608668

During the latter half of the 80's I lived and worked in New York, specifically Newark NJ, and Brooklyn.

I'm not sure what I expected to see, perhaps I anticipated some sort of multi cultural nirvana born of the numerous TV shows I'd grown up with. Instead what I found was an extremely fragmented, almost self segregated ghettoised environment, with the black african community primarily the 'underclass'...why is an entirely different subject, there are far to many complex factors to go into here.

The whole hip-hop culture was one born of that urban deprivation and poverty, an old turntable and a boom box was all some kids needed to make their statement. The baggy clothes, shoes with no laces, multiple layers of hoodies, were not a deliberate fashion statement (well not initially), just a product of poor kids living in a cold environment wearing second hand gear or what they could find.

The earlier hip hop bands were anything but 'Bling' or 'Gangsta', this whole culture was created by the music industry in a cynical effort to widen it's popularity to the white middle class kids (and therefore increase sales), and then subsequently the black kids again. If you're from a poor background an unsophisticated show of wealth is something to aspire to.

It's a natural cycle, except this time the ghetto is south London, and the boom box is a cheap laptop. Is London as bad as NY in the 80's? Probably not, but it's getting there...

[Neil McCauley]

During the latter half of the 80's I lived and worked in New York, specifically Newark NJ, and Brooklyn.

I'm not sure what I expected to see, perhaps I anticipated some sort of multi cultural nirvana born of the numerous TV shows I'd grown up with. Instead what I found was an extremely fragmented, almost self segregated ghettoised environment, with the black african community primarily the 'underclass'...why is an entirely different subject, there are far to many complex factors to go into here.

The whole hip-hop culture was one born of that urban deprivation and poverty, an old turntable and a boom box was all some kids needed to make their statement. The baggy clothes, shoes with no laces, multiple layers of hoodies, were not a deliberate fashion statement (well not initially), just a product of poor kids living in a cold environment wearing second hand gear or what they could find.

The earlier hip hop bands were anything but 'Bling' or 'Gangsta', this whole culture was created by the music industry in a cynical effort to widen it's popularity to the white middle class kids (and therefore increase sales), and then subsequently the black kids again. If you're from a poor background an unsophisticated show of wealth is something to aspire to.

It's a natural cycle, except this time the ghetto is south London, and the boom box is a cheap laptop. Is London as bad as NY in the 80's? Probably not, but it's getting there...

I feel humbled. A fine piece of writing and enlightening too. My ignorance for once, and via your efforts has been confounded rather than compounded. I for one am very appreciative. Thank you.

[The Grand Wazoo]

I find it quite interesting that the 'hoodie' has been singled out by some people and certain elements of the media and being an almost intrinsically evil item of clothing.
In Europe and specifically Britain, it is practically our traditional national dress, except that it used to be called a hooded tunic.

[Macca]

I find it quite interesting that the 'hoodie' has been singled out by some people and certain elements of the media and being an almost intrinsically evil item of clothing.
In Europe and specifically Britain, it is practically our traditional national dress, except that it used to be called a hooded tunic.

Very true. It's what we wore at Agincourt whilst we were stabbing the French knights in the armpits

[Yoga]

During the latter half of the 80's I lived and worked in New York, specifically Newark NJ, and Brooklyn.

I'm not sure what I expected to see, perhaps I anticipated some sort of multi cultural nirvana born of the numerous TV shows I'd grown up with. Instead what I found was an extremely fragmented, almost self segregated ghettoised environment, with the black african community primarily the 'underclass'...why is an entirely different subject, there are far to many complex factors to go into here.

The whole hip-hop culture was one born of that urban deprivation and poverty, an old turntable and a boom box was all some kids needed to make their statement. The baggy clothes, shoes with no laces, multiple layers of hoodies, were not a deliberate fashion statement (well not initially), just a product of poor kids living in a cold environment wearing second hand gear or what they could find.

The earlier hip hop bands were anything but 'Bling' or 'Gangsta', this whole culture was created by the music industry in a cynical effort to widen it's popularity to the white middle class kids (and therefore increase sales), and then subsequently the black kids again. If you're from a poor background an unsophisticated show of wealth is something to aspire to.

It's a natural cycle, except this time the ghetto is south London, and the boom box is a cheap laptop. Is London as bad as NY in the 80's? Probably not, but it's getting there...

How fantastic. Thanks Will, very interesting.

[WAD62]

How fantastic. Thanks Will, very interesting.

Thanks chaps, appreciated...

I’m not sure the hoody thing is a great deal different to me wandering around in ox blood DMs and wrangler jacket, in the early 70’s, it annoyed the hell out of my parents, and was a style based on football hooligans…not much changes, the more the style is castigated the more kids will wear it.

I suppose the one 'positive' thing I do feel about the UK urban, hoodie, scally, druggy culture is that isn't reserved primarily for one ethnic group. Ok no way are we all as racially tolerant as we should be, in all directions, and that there are problems to greater or lesser extents throughout the country, but we are a vastly more integrated society than the USA... IMHO.

To my mind it's more a product of lawless/deprived inner city council estates etc., with 'trash' of all ethnic backgrounds mingling together...well that's certainly the case in somewhere like Coventry, perhaps South London is different due to it attracting a greater immigrant population, I'll bow to someone with more local knowledge on this one.

With regard to my experience in NY (again back in the 80's so things may have changed), there were a couple of quite innocuous things that gave me an insight into certain black/african american attitudes.

It's 1988, I'm some sort of self styled white liberal trendy, I'm into my hip-hop/rap (public enemy in particular), and it's my first day at the Brooklyn board of education, as an IT consultant, booted and suited. The whole place was a real mixture of ethnic backgrounds, but the only local black kids working there (apart from one but I'll get to him later) were in more menial jobs, mail/report deliverers etc., it probably gave them the ethnic quotas they needed, if one was being cynical.

So I go down for lunch and there are no free tables, and looking around I see a bunch of black kids suitably hip hop styled (VW badges etc), so I decide to sit with them...The best analogy I can make is of a western saloon, when the pianist stops playing, the entire canteen goes silent, and the kids I'm sat with look mortified. After chatting with them about music etc. they realised I actually knew a bit about the music they were into, but more importantly for them that I wasn’t white American. So things went pretty well from then.

I met Thomas a junior programmer, and a local black Brooklyn kid a couple of days later, he was to work with me. So we go down to lunch together and I head straight for my new found hip-hop mates’ table, and invited Thomas to join…a big, big mistake. Thomas didn’t even respond and sat at another table. They then proceeded to call him all the names under the sun including ‘orio’ (an American chocolate biscuit with a white centre)…I’ll leave you to work the analogy out.

Life for someone like Thomas was a lot tougher than I’d imagined, 'shot by both sides' comes to mind...

[Yoga]

Indeed, some people are born into exceedingly hard circumstances. This is one of the reasons one should not judge another; your life experience is entirely different to theirs.

People are the product of their environment/culture. Unfortunately, our culture is not beneficial to the vast majority of people. The rich get rich and the poor get poorer. This segregation alone (not including race, age, height, sex, creed, beliefs, appearance, football team etc.) is the crux of the worlds problems; inequality in every context.

I knew a guy at uni who was (privately) racist. At first, I found it extremely difficult to swallow, until one day he told me the experiences he had had in another part of the country. From then on, I understood why, without having to agree with him. Ironically, my judgement and labelling of him was identical to that of his own prejudices :¬)

The lessons we learn!

[WAD62]

Indeed, some people are born into exceedingly hard circumstances. This is one of the reasons one should not judge another; your life experience is entirely different to theirs.

People are the product of their environment/culture. Unfortunately, our culture is not beneficial to the vast majority of people. The rich get rich and the poor get poorer. This segregation alone (not including race, age, height, sex, creed, beliefs, appearance, football team etc.) is the crux of the worlds problems; inequality in every context.

I knew a guy at uni who was (privately) racist. At first, I found it extremely difficult to swallow, until one day he told me the experiences he had had in another part of the country. From then on, I understood why, without having to agree with him. Ironically, my judgement and labelling of him was identical to that of his own prejudices :¬)

The lessons we learn!

Indeed...