Marco's latest vintage marvel....

[Marco]

I'm not going to rise to this Marco, but the "massive suckout" has been catalogued in reviews of the period (I think there's a Gramophone review-scan online). If this is evidenced as a pleasant sweetness to you, then fine...

Lol - that's not what I meant, Dave.

The problem is, mate, you're obsessed with "reviews of the period" and treat them as some kind of 'written in stone' bible.

I don't give a monkey's bollocks what was catalogued 35 years ago in "reviews of the period" (no doubt derived from using 'shite of the period' as partnering equipment - I'm only interested in how the cartridge sounds in my system.

I think people respect my opinion on these matters enough by now to realise that I wouldn't be saying what I have about the G800 unless it was true.........

On that note, I'm off to spin some more tunes - laters

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Darren,

Do you think that the differences between your experience of these old cartridges and Dave's are anything to do with the fact that he heard them 'in period' as it were with equipment that was around at the time and that you are transposing them into a completely different environment?

Yes, I think that's *exactly* what's going on. That, and with respect, Dave pays WAY too much attention to what is written in ancient hi-fi mags.

The sort of equiment I'm using now is in a different league to what would've been used to assess the merits of the G800 in the 1970s, particularly in terms of preamps and phono stages, which are of course hugely influential to cartridge performance.

I don't really want to dwell on this too much, so as to save arguments, but the fact is there was a lot of equipment made in the 70s which was REALLY good, but few would've heard how good it was because of the deficiencies of much of the partnering equipment then - and crucially, massive advances in the quality of things like supports and cables.

That's why the Tannoy Monitor Golds, Celestion Ditton 15XRs, Studio 66 Monitors, M3D cartidge, and many other pieces of equipment in my system, sound significantly superior than they would've done when they were first introduced onto the market, using the ancillaries of the day. Only now with the advantages of modern technology, and having learned so much about system set-up in the last 30-odd years, are we able to hear just what some vintage kit is sonically capable of.

Anyway, we'll leave it there

Marco.

[DSJR]

I'm not challenging you at all Marco and the M55E is showing me this at the moment, but just 'cos you like it doesn't mean it may still have issues, benign as they may be. The quality of the after-market stylus cannot be ignored either, as the one or two I heard, admittedly long ago now, were rather sharp and rough.

If all goes well, I'll have a collection of original plus one new pattern stylus G800's plus a 800E or two with any luck to play with. I'm not writing the thing off, but the G800 has got to go some if it's to knock an AT95E off the top-budget pickup perch - and I KNOW how good the 95E can be in a decent modern deck, as well as the Lenco arms, which it loves....

[edit] P.S. I've just ordered a new ATN95E stylus with which to compare

[DSJR]

P.P.S. - Do you have ELP's Brain Salad Surgery on LP Marco? AT THE TIME, I found that my G800 had difficulty with the percussion on "Toccata..."

[Marco]

No problem with any of that, dude - it was simply the "massive suckout" you mentioned earlier, which quite simply, does not exist in my system, and how you appeared to be stating its existence as fact. Whoever observed that particular phenomenon, must've been experiencing issues belonging to the test system at the time.

I think we have to remember that vintage gear, just like modern kit, reacts differently depending on what it's used with, and so what was written in mags about something 35 years ago isn't necessarily applicable or even relevant now.

One should always make allowances for the effect of multiple variables, and so very little in hi-fi should be written in stone.

If anything is amiss with the sonic presentation of the G800, then it's that the top-end currently exhibits a little over-emphasis, but that's likely because the stylus isn't properly run-in yet. Treble quality otherwise, however, is excellent with plenty of detail and sparkle. Other than the need for the stylus to run-in, the G800 is *very* good indeed with the kit I'm using, and has few weeknesses, considering that it is supposedly a budget MM design - and an ancient one at that.

I agree that the quality of aftermarket styli is important for these vintage designs - it was too with the M3D - so I intend to play with ones from different suppliers, as the conical versions are pretty cheap to obtain.

When the other G800 arrives, with its Goldring original stylus, it'll be interesting to hear what that sounds like.

Btw, when you do get around to fitting any of your G800s, use an arm with some mass, particularly at the headshell end, as I've found it definitely likes that

Here's hoping that you enjoy your Goldrings as much as I'm enjoying the one I have

Marco.

P.S Yes, I have BSS, and so will give that track a spin, and report back.

[DSJR]

Brilliant

The Lab 80 rumble-box has all the classic "idler" qualities of pitch and subtle timbre and the arm is actually perfect for the job - and with a solid cast headshell too. Some screws needed tightening and now the arm doesn't rattle around and retains low friction. even the auto-trip which has its roots in the 50's models seems to behave at side end. The "Ed Saunders M55E" sounds lovely in it and the bass now behaves itself, unlike in the Dual 701, where the bass was a bit thick and indistinct.

[synsei]

Potential arguments aside, this is a fascinating debate...

Like Dave, I was an avid reader of such august tomes as What HiFi, HiFi Choice and my personal favourite, Practical HiFi, back in the days of yore. I wasn't earning nearly enough money to be able to afford any of the delightfully esoteric gear that was ensconced within their hallowed pages in the '70's and early '80's. More importantly, having initially left home, I moved back into my parents house in 1981, renting a small 12ft by 6.5ft room from them. It was just about big enough to house a single bed, a small 'Tall Boy' wardrobe and a bedside cabinet. I set about installing some decent shelving above my bed to house the small amount of kit I had accrued since the mid 70's: A Rigonda Corvette record deck with a Goldring G800 cart, which I mentioned earlier. A Sony TA73 15wpc amp and a pair of Videoton Minimax speakers.

The Sony amp didn't really have enough balls to drive the Minimax's properly if I'm honest, but in such a small room and with a step-father who would yell at me to turn it down on a whim, it didn't do too bad at all. By necessity the Minimax's were on a shelf above the headboard to my bed, wired in reverse (left to right, right to left), and the rest of the kit was housed on a slightly lower shelf over my bedside cabinet. I was dead proud of that little system as it cost me peanuts (the speakers were a gift from my Dad, and the TT & Amp cost £5 each s/h), and although it didn't major on gut-wrenching bass, the overall sound was very pleasant indeed. A lot of budget cart swapping (Grado FCE+1, Glanz MFG11T and various Shures) and a couple of years later, the Rigonda finally gave up the ghost. The system was replaced by a Sony Music centre with larger, bassier but inferior speakers and the amp and Minimax's were consigned to the loft where they stayed and were forgotten when we moved.

Fast forward in time to November 2010 and an old friend popped over bearing a box containing a tiny pair of speakers he'd bought from a charity shop for a couple of quid. He'd bought them on a whim as he liked the look of them. They appeared to be well made and he wanted a decent, cheap pair of boxes for a small system he was planning for his bedroom. When he described them to me I suggested he pop 'em round so we could listen to them on my system.

Well, imagine my surprise when I opened the box and saw a pair of mint Minimax's. The nostalgia flooded back and I've never been so keen to wire up a pair of speakers in my life. We sat the little boxes on top of some anti-slip matting placed on my LS55's and sat back to listen to Dark Side Of The Moon (flac lossless). With slightly more modern hardware and close to 120wpc to play with, those little boxes sang their tiny hearts out. They were absolutely stunning! Really, how do speaker designers manage to reproduce such massive, pin-sharp soundstaging from so tiny a box? The speakers just vanished, and in their place was Pink Floyd, the band, and a trillion floating, ticking clocks, all from a speaker that was considered 'budget hifi' in its day.

I think this experience illustrates the point of this debate perfectly. Pick your vintage gear carefully. Be even more careful when matching it with relatively modern kit, and you could end up with a huge smile on your face, and money in your pockets. How I regret my forgetfulness now...

[DSJR]

I believe those Goodmans Minimax's were designed, at least in part, by ATC's Billy Woodman, who also "did" the Gale 401's I believe.

I have another cheapo memory-flood on the back burner and just missed some last week

[Marco]

I think this experience illustrates the point of this debate perfectly. Pick your vintage gear carefully. Be even more careful when matching it with relatively modern kit, and you could end up with a huge smile on your face, and money in your pockets.

Dave, you are absolutely right! Lovely pics and some nice memories. I lurve the tonearm on the Rigonda - just my sort of thing!

My whole system has been assembled based on the philosophy you describe (as was the system we demonstrated at Scalford Hall), and the results speak for themselves.....

If you can judiciously select the best vintage gear and marry it with quality modern designs, then in my experience the rewards can be fantastic, and as you say, you can save yourself a whole load of money.

The problem is, so many of us are conditioned to believe that equipment made now is automatically better than something made over 30 years ago, or more. In some cases that is true, but it is FAR from being an absolute. An open mind and some lateral thinking are required.

In fact, in my experience, preamps and phono stages aside, along with advances in digital technology, it is rarely the case when a quality vintage component is compared directly to its modern equivalent, that the former loses out in areas such as 'musical realism' or 'musicality' (there's more to it than that, but we'll call it that for now for the sake of brevity), and certainly build quality.

The other thing too, is that it's part of the human psyche to judge things based on our past experiences of them, or what we may have read about them in books or magazines, which is perfectly natural. However in doing so, it can close our minds to the influence of other variables, such as how vintage equipment behaves within a modern infrastructure, as we have been discussing.

It can also lead to absolutes, and erroneous conclusions being reached. Therefore, the only way to know with any certainly how good a piece of vintage equipment *actually* is, is to assess (or reassess) it within the context of a modern system, and not simply dismiss it based on what was experienced 'back in the day'. I do hope some folks are listening!

In that respect, the Goldring G800, used in the context of a modern system, is genuinely a quality cartridge. Based now on extended listening, I have no doubt whatsoever about that. A budget design it may have been 35 years ago, but then one must remember that 'budget' equipment in those days was a rather different beast to what it is today.

We're talking about in the days before mass consumerism, falling standards, and when equipment designed catered for a discerning audience, unlike in most cases today. Therefore in those days, equipment had to be good, even if it was 'cheap' - and the G800 epitomises that philosophy very nicely indeed.

Source a decent stylus (or find a NOS one, if you're lucky) and pop the Goldring on the end of a high-mass tonearm (with a suitably large headshell), run it through a quality preamp and phono stage, and prepare to be shocked and stunned at how little advance has been made in cartridge design since the days when most of us here were reading the Beano and the Dandy................

Marco.

[DSJR]

Actually Marco, the G800 wasn't a "budget" cartridge back then, it was a broad range from the G800H (red stylus) for the SP25's and tracking at 2.5g, to the slightly higher compliance 800 proper, tracking at a shade under 2g or so, to the 800E with elliptical tip tracking at 1.5g and the double priced approx 800 Super E which was "Top End" for the period, tracking at 1.25g (the lower the tracking weight, the better the cartridge ).

Seriously though, the Super E was really lusted after back then, but the 800E was the popular one for "transcription" style turntables like the Thorens, Lencos and better Garrards (the ones promised me have all come from GL75's and 78's - long story there).

I don't know how much different the 820 series replacements were, but by then, Shure ruled the audio waves and the M75-ED (got a good one of those too) was king of the middle ground.


Looking at some of the tests and knowing Mr Colloms at the time from mid-distance, I reckon that some of these pickups were slagged off because of the "next big thing..." There was quite a choice of cartridges coming along in the late 70's and some of these were really good I think, but now things have died off a bit, it's nice to go back to when things weren't so hysterical and blinkered and try again with some of these