Can an idler-wheel TT beat my Roksan Xerxes? is a Garrard or a Lenco up to it?

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Originally Posted by Infinitely Baffled

I think that a lot of the time the reason we decide we prefer a particular turntable over another is because we are responding to the overall aesthetic of the chosen unit. By "aesthetic" I mean not just its looks, but the whole identity it projects: cool and space-agey, restrained and minimalist, slightly old-fashioned and nerdy etc, etc. Plus that usually comes with all sorts of differences in the appearance and feel of the controls and user interface (sorry, couldn't think of a better way of describing it). So, does it appeal to you to start your records playing by spinning the platter up from standstill by hand, or do you like a procedure more akin to starting a Sopwith Camel (energise booster coils, wave arm in air, chocks away etc). All these things feed strong signals back to the user which please the senses (or not), flatter our feeling of discernment and achievement and re-inforce our sense of personal identity (audio-wise, at least). That's why we tend to band together into "camps" that sing the extravagant praises of one piece of kit or another - we are really singing about ourselves!

Whether the respective turntables actually sound much different is another matter - they just turn a piece of vinyl round and round after all. OK yes, obviously there is a difference, but I think it is pretty small and probably no longer noticed after the first week of ownership. We're probably much more preoccupied with the notion that "Ooh, I'm listening to MY Platine Verdier" or "How cool is my heavily-modded Lenco" or whatever. Let me stress - there is nothing wrong with that, nothing at all. That's human nature and it's nice to be able to get pleasure from all that stuff. But I'm just saying, there is a lot more going-on in our heads when we use our hi-fi.s than just listening to music. Take a good example of any of these different sub-types of turntable and, depending on the record you are playing, you are going to enjoy it - lots. Put another way, for the turntable to be actually diminishing your enjoyment of the music, it would pretty much need to be in such poor condition it is in need of repair, or so badly designed in the first place that it should never have reached the market.

Sorry, long and rambling post, but the message is this: we all think we are chasing after sound quality, but in reality we are not. We are looking for an overall "music-related experience" that chimes with our sense of what we like and who we are.
IB

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I very much agree with your post. It's not only about sound quality, it's a mind game.

Then again, it's always a quite rewarding feeling to make a small (or big) change and hear some clear improvement in sound. It's a small accomplishment, it's a small victory. And this can be exhilarating.

Let's keep on enjoying the music (and the journey)!

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Originally Posted by pankon

Russell,
thanks for your advice, which I am taking seriously. I still wonder, though, whether it would be possible to mod the DP45F, in order to remove/improve its deficiencies, e.g. the rumble that you mentioned. Any ideas?

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Honest I wouldn't think so, that rumble is built into the motor, main bearing setup that the whole table is built around. I loved my DP until I replaced it, then I was let in on just how noisy it was. I'll relay my experience.

I was spinning some records for an intoxicated young lady, we both had a snoot full. So I start a record and excuse myself to the restroom. As soon as I left the room, she attempts to arm wrestle with it. She doesn't want that record, so she is pushing against the auto start of the tonearm trying to place the needle on the record. And it never worked after that. Every time I tried to play a record, the speed was way slow. And it would pick the needle up in the middle of the record, and put it almost back on the perch. I inquired about a repair. And they said it needed a whole new circuit board. And to reset the timing of the arm, I inquired as to if I could just disconnect the auto arm stuff and just spin the record, and drop the needle by hand, and they said it was not possible. It's still in a box out in the garage some place. I should have paid to fix it, and got what money I could, but I doubt I could get the parts anymore. And bottom line was, a simple Pro-Ject Debut blew its socks off sonically! So I saw no need to invest any money into it.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Infinitely Baffled

I think that a lot of the time the reason we decide we prefer a particular turntable over another is because we are responding to the overall aesthetic of the chosen unit. By "aesthetic" I mean not just its looks, but the whole identity it projects: cool and space-agey, restrained and minimalist, slightly old-fashioned and nerdy etc, etc. Plus that usually comes with all sorts of differences in the appearance and feel of the controls and user interface (sorry, couldn't think of a better way of describing it). So, does it appeal to you to start your records playing by spinning the platter up from standstill by hand, or do you like a procedure more akin to starting a Sopwith Camel (energise booster coils, wave arm in air, chocks away etc). All these things feed strong signals back to the user which please the senses (or not), flatter our feeling of discernment and achievement and re-inforce our sense of personal identity (audio-wise, at least). That's why we tend to band together into "camps" that sing the extravagant praises of one piece of kit or another - we are really singing about ourselves!

Whether the respective turntables actually sound much different is another matter - they just turn a piece of vinyl round and round after all. OK yes, obviously there is a difference, but I think it is pretty small and probably no longer noticed after the first week of ownership. We're probably much more preoccupied with the notion that "Ooh, I'm listening to MY Platine Verdier" or "How cool is my heavily-modded Lenco" or whatever. Let me stress - there is nothing wrong with that, nothing at all. That's human nature and it's nice to be able to get pleasure from all that stuff. But I'm just saying, there is a lot more going-on in our heads when we use our hi-fi.s than just listening to music. Take a good example of any of these different sub-types of turntable and, depending on the record you are playing, you are going to enjoy it - lots. Put another way, for the turntable to be actually diminishing your enjoyment of the music, it would pretty much need to be in such poor condition it is in need of repair, or so badly designed in the first place that it should never have reached the market.

Sorry, long and rambling post, but the message is this: we all think we are chasing after sound quality, but in reality we are not. We are looking for an overall "music-related experience" that chimes with our sense of what we like and who we are.
IB

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+1


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There is a good solution for getting an all round result from an idler, yes they do major in bass and timing but you can get air and more sound staging from one by using a unipivot arm . That is to say that's what my ears tell me , the unipivot is very strong in the mid and treble and. ...okay in the bass. The idlers are very strong in the bass and timing....and good in the mid and ok the treble. Put them together and it's a very pleasant outcome. Ihave a haddock on my 301 and an audiocraft ac 30 on my heavily modded lenco. Both sound extremely good. ....High end good, and my 124 has a origin live ol1 that does the same thing only in reverse. All three are very good to my ears. Cheers steve

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Originally Posted by Dr Henry Jones

There is a good solution for getting an all round result from an idler, yes they do major in bass and timing but you can get air and more sound staging from one by using a unipivot arm . That is to say that's what my ears tell me , the unipivot is very strong in the mid and treble and. ...okay in the bass. The idlers are very strong in the bass and timing....and good in the mid and ok the treble. Put them together and it's a very pleasant outcome. Ihave a haddock on my 301 and an audiocraft ac 30 on my heavily modded lenco. Both sound extremely good. ....High end good, and my 124 has a origin live ol1 that does the same thing only in reverse. All three are very good to my ears. Cheers steve

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interesting that. i use the graham 1.5(unipivot) in a td124 and it carries V15III with a SAS stylus
Ive read that the 1.5 may lack bass in a test done.
Well my combination works v well , i dont feel its bass shy at all.

Resurrecting this thread, I feel I can comment on these two turntables having used both for many years.

My 401 has an Airtangent parallel tracking arm and is fitted with a Cartridge Man Music Master and the Xerxes is fitted with a Pug unipivot and Ortofon Rhomann.

I love them both, the Xerxes is super detailed with a soundstage that stretches wide and deep. I tend to play female vocal, acoustic and jazz music on it. The Xerxes does that thing where the vocalist seems to be right there in front of you and the rest of the band are layered in the soundstage behind.

The 401 sounds vivid, with great rythm and bass. On my 401 there is never any doubt what the drummer and bass player are doing on a recording. I tend to listen to Classical music and 60's, 70's rock and pop on it.

The cartridges have been swapped between turntables in the past and there have been different phono stages/preamps over the years but the fundamental character of each turntable has remained the same.

Just my experience as I guess there aren't many folk have owned these two simultaneously.

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Hi David,
thanks a lot for your feedback. Your comparison of the Xerxes with the legendary Garrard 401 is indeed very interesting. Would you be soling as to mention the other components of your system, i.e. amps, speakers, cables?

I happen to have heavily modified the Xerxes (see photo) and I do not know to what extent its sonic character has been maintained or altered. The plinth has been changed due to the notorious sag. The motor has been changed because the original power supply used to fail, probably due to overheating. I still enjoy the Xerxes though; very much so.

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