I just made a simple and effective major upgrade when I discovered my speakers wires were running to the wrong speakers left and right...only been like that for 2 months 😀
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I just made a simple and effective major upgrade when I discovered my speakers wires were running to the wrong speakers left and right...only been like that for 2 months 😀
I've heard speakers demonstrated in an audio dealers where the left and right channels were swapped over. The staff hadn't noticed! :doh:
I've heard speakers demonstrated at an audio manufacturer where the right channel wasn't working at all. The staff hadn't noticed!
I once got one speaker in anti-phase. A MASSIVE sound stage but nowt in't middle.
sometimes it sounds better:D
I've had reps and designers do the same when connecting their equipment. The other one is swapping the phase on one speaker. It appears that some can't hear this..:scratch:Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry
You should hear it if only one speaker is wrong but I've heard both being wrong way and it's been hard to notice. Dacs from usa usually had a phase switch. I could barely hear any difference when flipped.Quote:
Originally Posted by hifi_dave
:lol: I did a similar thing here; had the L and R XLRs the wrong way around in the amp. Didn't notice until I played a familiar piece of music - that was only an hour though, 2 months is a long time by comparison. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by BultyBoy
If you don't have a balance knob, then is it that bad not to notice?. Wouldn't take me long to notice the trumpet on the wrong side in kind of blue or whatever, but an average dealer going in and out of a room doing demos might not notice for quite a while.
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Did notice the other day that my DM 2 speakers are round the wrong way ( don't mean back to front, lol ). Thats according to the Bowers handbook, who say there s a left and right way to place em. Am I likely to notice an improvement if I swap them around ? :scratch:. Only bought a few weeks ago, and there heavy. Most impressed with these btw.
Note to self..... try it and find out !
The drive units of the DM2 are not aligned vertically, so the speakers are 'handed'. The left hand speaker has the badge on the left and the right-hand speaker has its badge on the right. This arrangement places the tweeters at the extreme left and right respectively, and outside of the woofer. If however the speakers are placed far apart from one another then B&W advise the speakers are reversed so the tweeters now lay inside of the woofers.Quote:
Originally Posted by tapid
https://www.bowerswilkins.com/sites/...DM2_manual.pdf
It's not unheard of for the DM2 to be used upside down.
Yes, on most speakers one expects the woofers to lay below the mid and tweeter units. Can't say I have ever tried using my DM2s 'upside down'.Quote:
Originally Posted by walpurgis
Not sure I'd try it on Ditton 66s or TLS80s. :D
Thanks guys. Have them sitting on Shan shimna concrete speaker stands with a heavy slab of concrete in between as well, lol. But sound better
now there at ear level. concrete is better than wood or metal under speakers I would say. Big effortless sound, wonderful.
Sorry for thread drift.
I've got a woofer coming tomorrow, can I wire that up wrong... ? 😀
Sounds like it. :D
Didn't Mission make a big deal about their unique upside down placement of the drive units to aid time alignment, when B&W had done it years before??Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry
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I wouldn't bother with Tannoy DCs either [emoji23]Quote:
Originally Posted by walpurgis
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I thought that was something to do with baffle step response?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence001
In the 1980s I had some Fisher speakers with the tweeter on the bottom, so it wasn't just Mission and B&W.
I found this on the Mission website, it's not quite what I thought.
In traditional Mission style, the standmount LX-1 and LX2’s tweeter is positioned below the mid/bass drive unit, in order to aid time-alignment. By placing the treble unit lower than ear level, the path length from the treble unit to the listener is longer than that of the mid/bass unit. As the treble unit dome is physically forward of the mid/bass unit cone, the difference in path length helps to equalise the acoustic distance.
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It all sounds like a right load of tosh, or maybe it's just me being thick - it's making assumptions about stand height, seat height, how tall the listener is, and how gullible too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence001
My step dad used to have a pair of these Missions, which he had on wall brackets high up on the wall, probably undoing all of Mission's R&D :(
That reminds me of a chump I used to work with. His mate has in-ceiling speakers and they were apparently the best speakers in the world.
I asked him if when he went to a concert the band were hanging from the ceiling of the stadium. He was completely stumped as to what I was talking about. :lol: Thick as two short planks that one.
maybe he was high when listening;)
Probably still better than that crappy PA at the NEC. That hangs from the ceiling. Don't know if they still have it, last went there in about '96 and swore never again. Totally soulless venue and shit sound.Quote:
Originally Posted by Filterlab
Most good speaker designers will make some assumptions about the listening position when they model the (three dimensional) polar response, I think Mission (and most) assume an ear height around the level of the top of the speakers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigmy Pony
I did read that when Kef designed the 104/2 the crossover was designed to make the image higher than the speakers. I assume this was done by making a slight phase difference between the top and bottom mid range cones. This was important as if you took the fronts off to refurbish them, putting the wires back the wrong way round would push the image towards the floor!
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"In traditional Mission style, the standmount LX-1 and LX2’s tweeter is positioned below the mid/bass drive unit, in order to aid time-alignment. By placing the treble unit lower than ear level, the path length from the treble unit to the listener is longer than that of the mid/bass unit. As the treble unit dome is physically forward of the mid/bass unit cone, the difference in path length helps to equalise the acoustic distance".
I am not persuaded by that explanation. Even if the treble unit is lower than ear level the path length from the tweeter to the ear can only be a metter of a few 10s of millimitres longer than that of the sound from the mid/bass unit at most in a domestic setting. Given the speed of sound in air is about 340m/s, even if the listener is seated 10m away from the speaker the time difference between sound leaving the treble unit versus sound leaving the mid/bass unit is going to be miniscule - measurable but I would doubt detectable to the human ear in a domestic setting. I understand the theory but in a domestic setting I would be surprised if placing the units in the way set out would make any real difference. I suppose if the listener was sat at the back of the o2 arena and the speakers were on the stage there might be a discernable difference but otherwise...................
I remember it from the motor show days. Appalling sound; barely useable!Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
Actually short differences in arrival time are noticeable and can lead to a blurring or lack of focus on the image. The ear and brain are quite remarkable instruments.Quote:
Originally Posted by peterdh
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My old fella took me to the NEC motor show in the 80s. There was a beautiful Ferrari 512BB sat near the entrance with a barrier round it and the window half down. A young lady was offering onlookers a piece of paper and a pen and inviting us to write our name and address, fold the paper into an aeroplane and try and get it through the window to win the beast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Filterlab
It was hard. However, a guy down from me hit the target, went batsh1t crazy, only to watch as our hostess reached through, picked it up and added it to the sack of (I'm guessing) 500 other "winners". That sack was then returned to the pile of others.
Still, got to be in it to win it I guess.......
And liked a bit of Lionel Ritchie (Oh-oh what a feeling, I got speakers in the ceiling) :)Quote:
Originally Posted by struth
The 512TR was, and still is, my favourite Ferrari of all time. I just love the 'modified' Testarossa looks. Quite quick at 192mph too. But of course, it's all about the noise and sense of occasion with these cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stranraer
https://i.ibb.co/PTwYVGv/4-C056-C72-...DAF031-A0.webp
https://i.ibb.co/y0sqCQ4/2-E699-E5-E...A7-C8-B157.jpg
@peterdh, Hi Peter there are a number of reasons the tweeter is sometimes mounted below the midbass unit. Let's look at one of them, addressing your reasoning on this. Consider the distance between your ears! As part of your survival system that difference allows you to accurately locate the position of a possible threat, say a twig or branch being broken in a tree. The tiny delta provides both the azimuth and declination of that sound or threat.
Music is all about timing and is one of the reasons why room treatment makes such a huge improvement in sound. When the sound is prevented from chaotically banging around and taking too long to decay the ear/brain relationship can now better distinguish the spatial clues.
I thought that was a Toyota MR2..
Got my new subwoofer woofing very nicely, less connections to mess up .... 😀
It's true. The same reason why some designers put a step in the baffle or slant it. It makes it easier to achieve good phase alignment thoughout the crossover, without having to use complicated delay circuits or extreme asymmetric crossovers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence001
It was the 355 that became a 'kit' for the MR2. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by BultyBoy
The B&W DM2 are built upside down (bass on top then tweeter then supertweeter at the bottom), but they were originally sold with a metal "armchair" that tilted the speakers back so they fired at an angle towards the ceiling. Unfortunately, my stands are missing.
I also have a pair of B&O redstripe speakers that sit on the floor with a metal stand to let them angle upwards. The sound appears to come from about 4 foot off the floor. I sit within 8 feet of the speakers when I listen. I cannot remember which way up the drivers are though.
I used to have a pair of Mission 751s: I always assumed the reason for the tweeter being below ear level was that this configuration took away some of its harshness.
Having the tweeter below the main driver was largely a fashion thing at the time I think, although there can be sensible reasons to do this. It can help ameliorate the effects of poorer quality tweeters and sometimes does have time alignment benefits. There are other tricks that can seem to benefit the sound, have you noticed that speakers with backward sloping baffles seem well received? Reference 3a and Spica spring to mind, amongst others.
[QUOTE=Filterlab;1258862]The 512TR was, and still is, my favourite Ferrari of all time. I just love the 'modified' Testarossa looks. Quite quick at 192mph too. But of course, it's all about the noise and sense of occasion with these cars.
Still looking good. Nice photos.
My other 512 story is........ when I was growing up in the South East I used to cycle round the posh villages with my camera looking for sports cars.
If I found one on a driveway I'd swallow hard, knock the door and ask if I could take pictures in exchange for washing the motor. Most folks were very friendly and I made sure I did a good job. A few took me out for a spin.
The 512 in question was a beautiful metallic powder blue. The guy who opened the door looked a bit nervous but said ok to the fotos, no wash required, but "be quick before my wife notices".
I laughed, thinking he was joking. 30 seconds later I was threatened with a garden rake.
I think the B&W DM2s were meant to be used on their own stands which tilted the speaker back a little. And there was the Meridian M1 active speaker which also had a backward-sloping baffle.Quote:
Originally Posted by walpurgis