I’m using the latter atlas ascent right now. Thinking of trying LS25. I realise its going to be system dependent but anyone out there tried both and what are your thoughts ?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I’m using the latter atlas ascent right now. Thinking of trying LS25. I realise its going to be system dependent but anyone out there tried both and what are your thoughts ?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Hey, Martin - your PM inbox is full to overflowing! Clear some space, please. :)
Done Jerry
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Well, oddly enough, I have. They are both very fine cables, and possibly dependant on your kit, no value in changing, but certainly I prefer the LS25, I find it more open, better imaging, and really great bass, both in power and control. The Atlas darker sounding, but great with textures, perhaps giving it the edge on simpler, slower music.
I guess it depends what area you are trying to improve, I have found power cables to have the most dramatic impact, but others do not find any worthwhile difference with any cable at all.
If you are in a position to, give the L25 a try, comes with 30 day return period.
Thanks for the reply Marcus.
I wonder if I’m just chasing my tail here. I have power chord upgrades and use an isotek sigmas gii too.
I have very eclectic tastes , I play jazz, trip hop, progressive house, folk, indie, blues, rock and classical.
I’m using ls3/5a and sub setup and a lyngdorf amp (solid state powered DAC)
I get a very big soundstage , that I’m pleased with but I read about systems where they describe the holographic 3 D soundstage. Mine is more like a wall of sound with depth.
Im thinking I should try something with solid cores for comparison.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I run ls25 its tremendous , best ive heard.
I believe Colin has developed an even better cable.
The LS25 certainly has a deeper soundstage, but as mentioned, the LS50 is meant to be on its way, but who knows what the price will be.
There is also the Atlas Mavros to consider, again, very pricy.
Hi Guys LS50 now available send Mr. Brown a msgQuote:
Originally Posted by bronzeage
https://www.abcaudio.biz/product-page/ewa-ls-50
Best Col
That should say NOW available [emoji6]Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Wonfor
I’m afraid I think you are wasting your time expecting a cable upgrade/change to deliver the results you are hoping for. I don’t know what front end you are using but that would be the first thing I would look at. Secondly, the Lyngdorf amps I have heard have not been strong in the terms of ‘holographic imaging’. Finally, if you want really strong imagery you have to set your speakers up VERY carefully in terms of room position and alignment. Do not expect the powerful DSP processing some Lyngdorf amps have to iron out huge frequency response anomalies and maintain a holographic image.Quote:
Originally Posted by Discopants
Martin, it says in your profile that you are using Apple TV and Spotify as your source - this will not provide you with the holographic imagery you describe - sorry to be blunt.
Provided that we are talking about the current generation of Lyngdorf's RoomPerfect system as included in the TDAi-2170 and TDAi-3400 amplifiers, and not earlier iterations, my experience is that the system does pretty much iron out quite significant room related anomalies; and one of its attributes that took me by surprise is the improvement in imaging, with the system activated. Stereo imaging is not something that I normally get excited about, but with classical recordings the extra spatial definition is marked and quite delightful. RoomPerfect is certainly the most musically transparent DSP room correction system that I've heard, and the amps themselves are rather sweet performers too. One of the key (and genuine) benefits of Lyngdorf's RoomPerfect system is that it does let you place the speakers where you'd like them to be (Lyngdorf suggest placing speakers close to the back wall, even when they have rear facing ports), and the system does more or less take care of things. There is a limit to all of this, of course, and RoomPerfect won't rescue a room that's acoustically like a public bath but it does work admirably in most domestic settings.Quote:
Originally Posted by YNWaN
Yes, I agree with all of that. What I meant was that the, very effective, room equalisation that the Lyngdorf amps can iron our some pretty serious speaker placement issues*, but when doing so is unlikely to maintain the extremely delicate effect required to produce ‘holographic’ imagery - very good yes, but not holographic.
* There was a very good Lyngdorf demo at last weekends Cranage show (the North-West Audio Show). When I was there they were using a pair of tiny, wall mounted) monitors with corner positioned sub-woofers. Many thought the, also present, B&W 802 speakers were being used, but they were not. The demonstrator turned off the DSP and the sound fell apart in a profoundly obvious way and suddenly it sounded just like a pair of corner subs - overblown boomy bass and muddled lower mid - very convincing.
Thanks for the input guys.
Yes I'm using TDAI 3400. Speakers are proac tablette 10 signatures. Sealed ls3/5a design and a Rel Stentor III in the corner.
I think the sealed design and the fact that I roll off at 80hz means the proacs are very forgiving in positioning especially under the control of the Lyngdorf. My speakers are only 5ft apart but I get some stereo effects 5ft to the side of the speakers. Sound stage also has good height and some effects appear deep but nothing really projects forward.
My sub I think I could experiment with corner adjustments to tune it to the room more effectively prior to the DSP magic. I did spend some time with the previous rel doing that but when I upgraded I just plonked it roughly the old position. My bass response is controlled but it's far from linear, did a few you tube sliding bass tests the other day and crudely watched a spl decibel reading on the iPad. Was easily +/- 6db swings between 20 and 80hz at 50db.
I've just ordered myself some dnm resolution speaker cable. As it has solid core topology I'm interested if the presentation will be different to the atlas multistrand. They get good reviews and they are cheap enough to try without breaking the bank.
So , when people talk of holographic soundstage is it truly 3D ? Or is it just big and well separated?
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
It should finger trouble again on keyboarddddddd
As to ‘holographic’, well it’s a subjective term and means whatever the user thinks it does. However, there is no such thing as truly holographic, you can’t stand up and walk around the listeners, or even sit off to one side. My experience of really, really good stereo imagery from speakers is that it is about really solid individual placement of instruments that doesn’t move about with frequency and often, if a multi-tracked recording, individual instruments may have their own surrounding acoustic too. Live recordings have a strong sense of acoustic, singers are very stably positioned and believable. In every case, if you want really clearly etched stereo, you have to sit in a specific spot (and preferably in the near field).
I have to add, I’m afraid I think DNM speaker cable is blooming awful stuff and whilst it may (though I doubt it) improve stereo focus it will absolutely kill dynamic expression - give me a thick multi-strand any day!
Oh, and a +/- 6dB swing is a lot - if you mean it can swing a whole 12dB in total then that is vast. The DNM will slash bass dynamic so perhaps it will curtail your room excesses but it is really trying to make two wrongs add up to a right.
Hmm, well maybe I should settle with what I’ve got on soundstage as It fits with what you describe pretty much. The lyngdorf essentially allows you to tune the sweet spot or spots. You measure the distances to each speaker and sub enter it into the calibration and then measure at the seating positions. Ive programmed 2
My usual listening position is central to the speakers , although its much further back to a typical sweet-spot as I’m right across the room just in front os the rear wall. My speakers are toed in just a few degrees to my seat. I have good stands loaded and I use Townshend speaker bars.
Im going to work on optimising the sub as it is bigger than my old one and I never positioned it with care. As good as the lyngdorf DSP is I think if the sub is optimally tuned to the room before DSP then that should give the best results for the DSP to work from.
As to the DNM resolution , there are members here who rate it , its not costing me much to try it.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
It appears it does by your own standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by YNWaN
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Oh and as to the room perfect demonstration. I think its great .....but you could very easily swing a demonstration to exaggerate how good it is.
If you took a little time to at least match the sub output levels to the main speakers (which is obviously what you would do without room correction). Then switching the room calibration on and off is certainly still immediately noticeable. If the volumes are mismatched to start with then you can make the effect much more pronounced.
You get a better room calibration if the subwoofers are set at half volume (gives the software more to play with). But some combinations of subs and main speakers would naturally need the sub on a much lower volume.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Im sure its a very good cable Colin, i know you have lots of happy customers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Wonfor
Part of my problem is I’ve not heard many other systems or components. I should try and get to some hifi shows and meets
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
2 boundary subs and un ported speakers on the wall is optimal starting point for the lyngdorf demonstrations though I’m sure. I don’t have the room to work like that. It has to work as a living room and i have other stuff to fit in it and 2 doors into the room.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Well, if you think so then that’s fine. On the other hand you, by your own admission, haven’t heard many other systems to compare it to...Quote:
Originally Posted by Discopants
Frankly, I think you are wasting your time looking for improvements (in this case) changing your speaker cable (I’m not a cable non-believer though) - but it’s your money and if it gives you enjoyment then why not - perhaps it will redefine your expectations, veils will be lifted etc.
Mark
I do appreciate the input, you could be right and there may be no difference between DNM and Atlas. I’ll post here good bad or indifferent.
I will learn something either way.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Nothing should project forward, the soundstage should be constructed entirely behind the plane of the speakers. So it sounds like you are some of the way there already. I don't see why using spotify should be a barrier to getting a 'holographic' soundstage, that is possible and I have heard it myself on a couple of occasions, in one instance from a vinyl source. But in both cases the room was quite large with plenty of space around the speakers, especially to the sides. No DSP was involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Discopants
The speakers themselves, their position in the room and the characteristics of the room will all have an effect. Of course if it is not on the recording (and it isn't there on many recordings) then you won't get it anyway. Whilst I agree you can change the sound to a small degree by changing the speaker cable I don't see how this will contribute in any way to getting a 3d soundstage. Fact is no-one entirely agrees as to what is the best way to get this effect. Possibly because there are so many variables and psychoacoustics is still something of a gray area. So experimentation in your own individual situation is the only way.
The best example I have heard was using Linkwitz LX521 bi-polar speakers in a big room and the recording was Jeff Beck 'Live At Ronnie Scotts.' 'Transported to the venue' were the words I would use, it was quite astonishing. I have a pretty good set up and a fairly benign room but I can't get close to replicating that effect when playing that recording at home.
You're attempting the most difficult thing in hif-fi. Good luck!
Yup. It's not too hard to get great bass, or wide and fast dynamic swings etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
But the sense of being 'Transported to the venue' is very elusive.
The closer I can reliably get to it, the more I sense that it is to do with clarity, transparency and resolution.
So if a speaker cable change can help with that (which I think it can) then it's as good a thing to do as any other in the quest for 'being there'.
Well changing the speaker cable won't hurt. Agree getting noise/distortion as low as possible will be a factor but since it is possible to get the effect from a vinyl source I don't think it is a deal-breaker. Personally I gave up on the quest, I don't think my room is wide enough (12 foot) to be able to achieve it. As long as I've got a 'good tone' I'm happy. And even that's not easy!
Thanks for the input Martin
Those speakers look very interesting , some information on the design principles here
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/LX521/Description.htm
Interesting that the tweeter is dipole , that's what the lyngdorf on wall speaker designs use.
Will try to understand this better when I have more time.
I've taken a good bit of effort with my power and with vibration control both of these improved the soundstage considerably.
I may well be limited by speaker positioning now as it's set for practical use of space. I could tweak soft furnishings etc a little and play a bit more with speaker toe in angles.
One day I may get a proper listening room , you never know....
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
Ugly though. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Discopants
I have, but only the LS25. Superb. Performance versus price = 10/10. I am selling mine (mint condition) as I am upgrading to their very new LS50. I am asking £300 for 5.0m pair and this includes insured Special Delivery (usually 24 hours) in the UK. Firm sale, no offers and no returns. Thank you.
Colin is the LS 50 just a biwire version of LS 25 ? Or is it for single runs too ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Wonfor
Single runs are available the one shown was a Custom made version.Quote:
Originally Posted by Discopants
In my experience, the following have made a significant difference to 3D soundstage, with the sense of instruments having their own depth, not just depth between them:
- Equal distance from the front wall. Millimetres count. 3mm off is the difference between nice and sounding “locked in.”
- Not being father away from the speakers than the distance between them.
- Open, unbroken space between listener and speakers. This gives a fuller, more natural embodiment of the instruments, where it sounds like it is coming from the 3D instrument not a flat 2D instrument. I find it hard to achieve this absence of central furniture in a lounge used for living.
The following are significant factors but preliminary to a soundstage, not 3D per se:
- Toe in mostly deals with lateral focus, separation, and openness in my experience.
- Noise floor and detail are also significant factors overall.
The DNM resolution is a definite step up from Atlas ascent 2 mk II in my system.
Better clarity in the mids and bass especially. I thought I lost a bit of shimmer from cymbals but after a week of listening, I've noticed better clarity in other treble effects like chimes.
The soundstage is slightly smaller in width and height but better depth giving more sense of space between instruments and voices.
DNM resolution is a great cable for the money. DIY 2m pair and short length for jumpers. £95 all in. I bought 4mm stackable low mass z plugs.
However I also bought the LS25 from Howard here, too good a price to refuse.
2 days in and it's even better than the DNM. Just offers even more of the same. Bass is the most noticeable especially on plucked strings, the resonance here is very satisfying. Mids and treble also have even greater clarity. The tone being that much more natural. Soundstage has a little more height and more depth, speakers have totally disappeared. Hearing a lower noise floor too. Very happy with the ls25 I got an absolute bargain and have to hand it to Colin.
Think I'm almost done tweaking my system. I don't listen near field and I still wouldn't say I had 3d soundstage but I am very happy with it non the less.
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk