Serious question. Hearing

Stating the obvious we all presumably spend a considerable amount of time and / or money on music, and it's becoming increasingly apparent that my left ear is in far better shape than my right.
I blame it on being in the firing line of a Marshall guitar cab most nights over a 12 year period. I wasn't even the talent. This was colateral damage.

So rather than thinking about the next cable or box of electronics, I'm wondering if anyone out there's invested in hearing aids, and how it panned out.
I definitely don't yet need them in my day to day life but like reading glasses, am fairly sure I could upgrade the sound quality by giving my ears a helping hand

Anyone been down this route ?

Do you find it affects your enjoyment of your system? Stating the obvious perhaps, but the brain has amazing powers of compensation.

I count myself very fortunate in still having good lugs- at 52 I can still hear to 17.5k or so, or at least that's what several apps have told me- I've never had a proper hearing test to confirm. However I did a few years ago contract Meniers' or something like it- I occasionally have minor balance issues, and tinnitus in my right ear. Nothing serious and it does come and go, for which I'm thankful, as it mostly goes. I do have a horror that I'll lose my hearing because of it though, having read of such.

I did one of those online hearing tests a couple of years ago, which showed me that I'm hearing bugger all above about 7 or 8kHz. Doesn't affect my listening pleasure much, though it does bug me sometimes that small high-frequency sounds that I used to hear on records in the 70s have all but vanished. An example would be the breaking glass in Dire Straits' "Private Investigations".

No doubt hearing aids would help, but like everything else it would come down to the quality of the device. I'm wondering if approaching it differently, ie increasing high frequency output, is possible? Could super tweeters be fitted, with adjustable volume separate from the rest of the frequency range? Could be a solution, though I wouldn't expect a thankyou from any nearby dogs :(

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Originally Posted by Pigmy Pony

I did one of those online hearing tests a couple of years ago, which showed me that I'm hearing bugger all above about 7 or 8kHz. Doesn't affect my listening pleasure much, though it does bug me sometimes that small high-frequency sounds that I used to hear on records in the 70s have all but vanished. An example would be the breaking glass in Dire Straits' "Private Investigations".

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hah! funny you should mention that as listened to that song a few times the other day when comparing DACs and it did occur to me that the breaking glass sound seemed very quiet compared to how I recalled it from my youth. I put it down to different mastering between CD and vinyl but you're probably right it's actually HF hearing loss with age.

See also - complaining about the trend in modern films for the actors to mumble their dialogue.

What's that sonny? Speak up!

'Good' hearing aids can be targeted to boost sound levels in areas where hearing sensitivity has declined, generally higher frequencies. Unfortunately, what they don't point out, is that the loss of hearing is often caused by 'wear & tear' over the years and boosting sound in the affected parts of the audio band, while it may for the moment make things easier to discern, will also create more wear and tear, just where you don't need it. In other words, you'll get deafer using a hearing aid (probably).

I've been deaf to high frequencies in my right ear most of my life. I tend not to notice it.

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Originally Posted by walpurgis

'Good' hearing aids can be targeted to boost sound levels in areas where hearing sensitivity has declined, generally higher frequencies. Unfortunately, what they don't point out, is that the loss of hearing is often caused by 'wear & tear' over the years and boosting sound in the affected parts of the audio band, while it may for the moment make things easier to discern, will also create more wear and tear, just where you don't need it. In other words, you'll get deafer using a hearing aid (probably).

I've been deaf to high frequencies in my right ear most of my life. I tend not to notice it.

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Probably because it's been most of your life. I only notice it when listening to stuff I've been playing since I was a youngster. Doesn't apply with new music, but only because it is new to me.

Couple of years ago I bought Alice Cooper's "School's Out", which I first had in '72. One particular track (Gutter Cat vs The Jets) has an amount of low-level detail (breaking glass again!), and I was expecting my current set up to be rather more revealing of this than my old Fidelity HF43 record player. Not so, which did piss me off a bit.

Good point you make about further damaging your hearing Geoff, which hadn't occurred to me till now. Force feeding your lug holes high freq sounds would just be more of what knackered your hearing in the first place.

Just remembered this: A few years ago I got a call while at work from one of these "cash for claims" outfits, who wanted to know if I had ever worked in a noisy environment. When I answered the call I told him he'd have to speak up as I couldn't hear him above all the racket where I was working. he must have thought Wa-hay! I've got a live one here! They sent some guy over to my house armed with a laptop and headphones. I can't remember the numbers, but I know my left ear was a lot worse than my right.

But when I told him my past working conditions were actually pretty quiet, and that a more likely cause was concerts, rave clubs and my motorbike, he lost interest and left without even having a brew. Never heard from them again.

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Originally Posted by Pigmy Pony

Good point you make about further damaging your hearing Geoff, which hadn't occurred to me till now. Force feeding your lug holes high freq sounds would just be more of what knackered your hearing in the first place.

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Precisely!

I'm fairly sure my right ear was damaged using Lee Enfield .303 rifles on a RAF shooting range when I was in my teens (it was a very long time ago). The Enfield has a pressure relief port to its left side that emits large amounts of supersonic energy and I copped a lot of it from the guy to my right. No ear defenders back in those days.

(yes, I am a qualified RAF marksman and I wasn't even in the RAF :))







.

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Originally Posted by walpurgis

I'm fairly sure my right ear was damaged using Lee Enfield .303 rifles on a RAF shooting range when I was in my teens (it was a very long time ago). The Enfield has a pressure relief port to its left side that emits large amounts of supersonic energy and I copped a lot of it from the guy to my right. No ear defenders back in those days.

(yes, I am a qualified RAF marksman and I wasn't even in the RAF :))







.

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powerful weapon... my dad used one..

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Originally Posted by walpurgis

I'm fairly sure my right ear was damaged using Lee Enfield .303 rifles on a RAF shooting range when I was in my teens (it was a very long time ago). The Enfield has a pressure relief port to its left side that emits large amounts of supersonic energy and I copped a lot of it from the guy to my right. No ear defenders back in those days.

(yes, I am a qualified RAF marksman and I wasn't even in the RAF


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Interesting - would the sound be even louder due to being supersonic, in the same way that jets make a right racket in supersonic flight? That would certainly do your hearing.

As for shooting at RAF range, I would have enjoyed that. I once got to shoot some pistols at a gun club, including some bloke's .44 Smith & Wesson. Sadly those days are gone, thanks to our knee-jerk reaction to a handful of dickheads with more ammo than brains :(

I read somewhere that firing only three rounds from a Lee Enfield .303 rifle, would (could?) cause permanent hearing damage.

But to reply to the OP, as long as you continue to enjoy music just live with it. As Ali has said, the brain has a remarkable ability to compensate for shortcomings in the various senses.

I can't hear pure tones over 10kHz, and have very mild tinnitus in my right ear - yet I can hear the effect of a 10kHz low-pass filter applied to, say a violin recording.

I worked as a Linotype operator in the newspaper industry. A room full of these machines was very noisy and I am sure this noise damaged my hearing. This was during the late 60s and 70s. A Linotype was a type-setting machine which used molten metal to cast lines of type (Linotype). Around the mould to crucible interface, asbestos was used to form a heat seal. This asbestos seal would sometimes break down and would be repaired using asbestos mixed with a special glue/paste. The dust particles from the asbestos could clearly be seen whilst this was done. Thank fu*k for the advent of computers eh?

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Originally Posted by Barry

I read somewhere that firing only three rounds from a Lee Enfield .303 rifle, would (could?) cause permanent hearing damage.

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A session on the range would leave your ears ringing for hours.

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Originally Posted by prestonchipfryer

I worked as a Linotype operator in the newspaper industry. A room full of these machines was very noisy and I am sure this noise damaged my hearing. This was during the late 60s and 70s. A Linotype was a type-setting machine which used molten metal to cast lines of type (Linotype). Around the mould to crucible interface, asbestos was used to form a heat seal. This asbestos seal would sometimes break down and would be repaired using asbestos mixed with a special glue/paste. The dust particles from the asbestos could clearly be seen whilst this was done. Thank fu*k for the advent of computers eh?

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I did an apprenticeship as a letterpress compositor, and I can vouch for those linotype machines - you had to shout to make yourself heard.

Mind you some of those presses weren't any better. We had this ancient old press which we used to print posters using wooden type. The thing could shake the building, and one day the owner of the cafe below us called in to complain that one of his polystyrene ceiling tiles had fallen onto a customer's head. So after that it was only used in the afternoons. It ran off a long belt from a giant flywheel, and one time the belt grabbed one of the old guys by his hair and carried him to the ceiling before letting him go. Oh how we laughed. But this was the 70's, a time untroubled by health & safety :)

Thanks All,

the observation about aids possibly further ruining my hearing is a good one. My eyes have detriorated quite rapidly since I started wearing reading glasses three years ago.
As for the impact, it really does spoil the listening. I have a tad more volume running through the right channel and this centres the vocals nicely, but there always seem to be more instruments on the left side than the right.
My plan is to swap speaker cables and see if there are then new, unheard instruments on the left that I missed when running through the right channel, and some missing on the right that I used to hear through the left.

Re the suggestion about super tweeters my Neat XLSs are equipped with exactly that, mounted in the top surface and firing upwards.

Before rushing to get hearing aids maybe have other things checked out. I suffer from wax in my ears periodically, and recently it's been bad in one ear. Also colds and other problems - maybe allergies can affect hearing - for example by blocking the eustachian tubes, and if the ears become infected that's not good. I'm somewhat older than others have declared, but I'd prefer to continue without hearing aids for as long as possible. I have also used headphones quite a bit sometimes - and recently in the last couple of weeks, but I am firmly convinced that extended headphone listening makes problems such as earwax and infections worse - perhaps because the ears tend to become warm, and maybe there are bacteria which affect the ears which get in via the headphones.

However, I wouldn't dismiss severe hearing problems completely. One of my younger friends suffered quite severe hearing loss about a decade ago - I'm not sure if he ever found out why it happened - but he can't hear what is being said sometimes without the help of his hearing aids. I occasionally also have problems due to the wax, but so far it has always cleared up eventually.

If you discover you really do need hearing aids then go for them, but I think that some of the commercial outfits have an interest in convincing customers that they need hearing aids so that they can keep their businesses running.
Even doctors get things wrong - probably quite often. My mother - at the time she was over 80 - had earwax problems, and on one occasion went very deaf indeed, particularly in one ear. Her GP tried gently to tell her that she needed hearing aids, but she insisted she didn't and wanted her ears flushed out. In the end she had the wax cleared out, and it was clear that her hearing improved dramatically in a matter of minutes. She never did have hearing aids, though she did eventually have other problems.

With advancing age I think that things do get worse. One late musician friend of very advanced years became quite frustrated with several very expensive sets of hearing aids, as he said that they put out the tuning of all the music he listened to, and also of his piano. He commented that some were better than others, but in the end I don't think he liked them much in his last years.

I also recommend reading this book by Bella Bathurst if you want to know more about the kinds of problems some people have had - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sound-Memoi...s=books&sr=1-6 Sound - a memoir of hearing lost and found

If you are thinking about hearing aids to better enjoy your music, I’d think twice. My aids only serve to make it sound tinny, harsh and very sibilant. My high frequency range is all but gone. If you need them to get on with life and actually converse with people,then get them. I only use mine when I absolutely need to, ie in work meetings and social settings with lots of background chatter where I have to interact. To be honest, working from home has really suited me as all work meetings are virtual and sticking on headphones makes hearing people so much better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

An NHS hearing aid user here as I have moderate hearing loss and tinnitus.

Everyday life and listening to music has been enhanced by the use of the hearing aids, so I would recommend getting checked out and giving them a try.

I have severe hearing loss in my right ear, nothing much above 5k, and some in the left. In my last job as a BT field 'engineer' I had to trace lines using a detector which produced at maximum a level of 131.5 dB in the headphone, and high levels were necessary when in a noisy environment, eg. 105dB at London Bridge.

irony, after litigation I purchased my current loudspeakers which go up to 50kHz.

At the BBC in '70 we used to clean uniselectors, and used an aquarium full of Inhibisol with our arms emerged in it up to the elbows; it is not unlike carbon tetrachloride.

At the Lab of the Gov't Chemist I used to maintain gas chromatographs, lined with asbestos, and on the notice board were the three types, white, blue, and brown, listed as a serious hazard to the lungs.

I do think that hearing aids are a no no for me because they are unlikely to be transparent, and as with glasses, I insist on making myself work to maintain what I have, and, although briefly, listening at 130dB at 30 ft on ATC 100s which I did in about '98 does not improve intelligibility. I restrict myself to about 75 max now, and hear everything, (except due to hearing loss, the ding bells on Enigma).

A friend got hearing aids, audiologist said hearing loss was without doubt caused by power tools at work. Hearing is now great but he could no longer listen to his oris horns with lowther dx4. Had to move them on.

If someone who develops severe hearing problems has to alter his system to suit, I bet it would sound bloody awful to a partner with good hearing.

I once bought a record, "Space" by Magic Fly from a work colleague who was profoundly deaf. Apparently it was the vibrations he "listened" to. Pity his neighbours. Anyway, the record was so crackly it was unplayable, so went straight in the bin :(

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Originally Posted by Pigmy Pony

If someone who develops severe hearing problems has to alter his system to suit, I bet it would sound bloody awful to a partner with good hearing.

I once bought a record, "Space" by Magic Fly from a work colleague who was profoundly deaf. Apparently it was the vibrations he "listened" to. Pity his neighbours. Anyway, the record was so crackly it was unplayable, so went straight in the bin :(

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My hearing was damaged at a concert a decade ago. I was right at the back of a well known very large venue in East London... Hyperacus, tinnitus and top end loss. I found it's a case of trying to adapt and appreciate what you've still got. Nowadays I can listen to music up to c.75db comfortably, my tinnitus doesn't trouble me, and my hearing is only the equivalent of 10 years worse than it would've been and so I'll settle for all that. I work with a hearing charity now. As has been posted above, hearing aids don't restore a "normal" balanced range across all the frequencies - in the same way that cupping your hands behind your ears helps some frequencies, it also makes things sound odd overall. To the OP, yes, it is a serious question and can be troubling. I do hope it works out for you.

Space Magic Fly was insanely catchy, essentially the same little synth ditty repeated over and over. I remember them on Top Of the Pops, wearing space hemets, naturally.

Damn! I've got it in my head now! Must find it and give it a listen...

Pete

Check out your hearing on this web page. Its worryingly accurate. It will give you a good idea if you need hearing aids

https://hearingtest.online/

I ran a stereo test CD which produces tones at various frequencies and found I couldn't hear anything at and above 9k :doh:.
It got me thinking about my IMFTLS50's and whether the recap I did was working as expected. I downloaded a frequency analyser app for my phone and played the test CD and sure enough there were clear peaks above 9k on the frequency analyser app although I couldn't hear a thing.
I was able to compare channel output separately and satisfy myself the the speaker outputs were roughly similar and good enough for my needs.
For a cheap cheerful quick check it was quite informative.

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Originally Posted by winstonmalcolm

I ran a stereo test CD which produces tones at various frequencies and found I couldn't hear anything at and above 9k :doh:.
It got me thinking about my IMFTLS50's and whether the recap I did was working as expected. I downloaded a frequency analyser app for my phone and played the test CD and sure enough there were clear peaks above 9k on the frequency analyser app although I couldn't hear a thing.
I was able to compare channel output separately and satisfy myself the the speaker outputs were roughly similar and good enough for my needs.
For a cheap cheerful quick check it was quite informative.

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Certainly cheap, but being shown that I'm mutton jeff didn't make me cheerful :doh:

Yeah it is frustrating although I have had trouble deciphering some speech on TV for a while so it wasn't a great surprise.
Still enjoying my music and system so that's the main thing. Won't be spending fortunes on upgrades that's for sure.

I have hearing problems, but they don't bother me much normally. My recently purchased telly has rubbish sound quality though and I mean really rubbish through its own speakers. I tried it connected to the Hi-Fi, but didn't like that, so I dug out a Cyrus 'Cyruslink' 2.1 sub-sat system I'd had for years and rigged that up with excellent results. I don't want surround sound, as I dislike it.

If you want a bit of extra clarity for undemanding listening in any setup, check out NXT 2.1 systems. I have one on each computer and they work brilliantly. One from Advent and one from TDK. They haven't been marketed for years, but can still be found second-hand very cheaply. You get the same kind of presentation that electrostatic speakers offer.

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Originally Posted by Stranraer

Stating the obvious we all presumably spend a considerable amount of time and / or money on music, and it's becoming increasingly apparent that my left ear is in far better shape than my right.
I blame it on being in the firing line of a Marshall guitar cab most nights over a 12 year period. I wasn't even the talent. This was colateral damage.

So rather than thinking about the next cable or box of electronics, I'm wondering if anyone out there's invested in hearing aids, and how it panned out.
I definitely don't yet need them in my day to day life but like reading glasses, am fairly sure I could upgrade the sound quality by giving my ears a helping hand

Anyone been down this route ?

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same for me back in the seventies, night after night with a Marshall stack in my left ear. Always noticed using a phone in my left ear was not as clear as my right. Not so bad that I felt the need for hearing aids. Nowadays bands use some kind of specific ear plugs

A factor which makes it difficult for me is the change in dialect/enunciation from the time of my formative years. If I listen to any TV showing Pathe News it is always intelligible, and Auntie spoke correctly in the 60s and 70s, but they gradually changed.

I struggler with American films to understand much speech, and R4 obscures its lack of really valid argument with poor enunciation, and some inserts are absolutely wordless to me.

Of course wide band speakers makes this worse because of a lack of attention to mic. usage in media generally, and we have proximity effects most of the time. If you listen to the TV news on wideband speakers, you will hear the lavalier mics. under the chins producing a really adulterated FR.

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Originally Posted by Pharos

I have severe hearing loss in my right ear, nothing much above 5k, and some in the left. In my last job as a BT field 'engineer' I had to trace lines using a detector which produced at maximum a level of 131.5 dB in the headphone, and high levels were necessary when in a noisy environment, eg. 105dB at London Bridge.

irony, after litigation I purchased my current loudspeakers which go up to 50kHz.

At the BBC in '70 we used to clean uniselectors, and used an aquarium full of Inhibisol with our arms emerged in it up to the elbows; it is not unlike carbon tetrachloride.

At the Lab of the Gov't Chemist I used to maintain gas chromatographs, lined with asbestos, and on the notice board were the three types, white, blue, and brown, listed as a serious hazard to the lungs.

I do think that hearing aids are a no no for me because they are unlikely to be transparent, and as with glasses, I insist on making myself work to maintain what I have, and, although briefly, listening at 130dB at 30 ft on ATC 100s which I did in about '98 does not improve intelligibility. I restrict myself to about 75 max now, and hear everything, (except due to hearing loss, the ding bells on Enigma).

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If you dont fancy a regular hearing aid you could look at a bone conductive one,they can fit on your glasses:) I tried a cheap Chinese one and found it incredibly natural, I lost it when we decorated :scratch:

I do not consider that a hearing aid will (yet), improve my hearing, and with a change of diet I have improved it and got rid of tinnitus, even gaining a return of some HF in the right ear.

I do not wear glasses, I do eye exercises and eat for my vision.

Regarding intelligibility, after years of the Hi-Fi fraternity talking about flat responses, and then a downward sloping one, I have just come across this from an apparently respectable source, and it seems to make a mockery of flat and sloping graphs.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f....17598/page-88

Doesn't surprise me. Let a non-discerning listener loose on a Hi-Fi system that has a multiband graphic equaliser and I expect you'd find they'd set it up like that. Plenty of boosted presence and bass!

The top end roll-off is also to be expected, as the average listener may either not understand treble or not be able to hear it clearly.

An interesting one Dennis,
Obviously we all hear sound diffrently to a degree, but for someone to state that Graph as the norm to strive for i think is a bit misleading.
I did a sweep of my system a while back using a calibrated Mic into a real time analyzer [Mic was placed at the listening position at head height] anyway; i did the sweep using a signal generator and got the result below.

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Originally Posted by Pharos

Regarding intelligibility, after years of the Hi-Fi fraternity talking about flat responses, and then a downward sloping one, I have just come across this from an apparently respectable source, and it seems to make a mockery of flat and sloping graphs.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f....17598/page-88

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Originally Posted by Pharos

Regarding intelligibility, after years of the Hi-Fi fraternity talking about flat responses, and then a downward sloping one, I have just come across this from an apparently respectable source, and it seems to make a mockery of flat and sloping graphs.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f....17598/page-88

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if you read the thread it is relating to headphones, not speakers.

For loudspeakers, studies show preference for a downward curve, level at 20Hz to be 10db higher than level at 20Khz. This is a 75% preference, there will be 1 in four who are outliers who don't like it like that.

if a speaker measures flat in an anechoic chamber then when placed in a room bass frequencies will be boosted by room gain and high frequencies will be attenuated by soft furnishings, thus delivering (roughly) the generally preferred balance.

This is why it's a good idea to design commercial speakers to have a flat response anechoically, more people will like them and you will therefore sell more of them.

I realised that Macca, but it is seemingly rather extreme, and to me rather unexplainable.

I also agree with Geoff's point re. graphic equaliser, but not about the top which can often stick out as a separate entity.

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Originally Posted by Pharos

I realised that Macca, but it is seemingly rather extreme, and to me rather unexplainable.

I also agree with Geoff's point re. graphic equaliser, but not about the top which can often stick out as a separate entity.

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Back in the 1980s when 5 band equalisers were quite common on midi-systems you'd more often than not see them set to 'smiley face.'

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Originally Posted by Macca

Back in the 1980s when 5 band equalisers were quite common on midi-systems you'd more often than not see them set to 'smiley face.'

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That's how I liked them. But none were at or below zero, after all you want more of everything if you can get it [emoji16]

lol yeah they could have just left off the negative settings and saved a few quid.

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Originally Posted by Pieoftheday

If you dont fancy a regular hearing aid you could look at a bone conductive one,they can fit on your glasses:) I tried a cheap Chinese one and found it incredibly natural, I lost it when we decorated :scratch:

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Mrs. P would have spotted the lump under the wallpaper straight away. She not only has hearing like a bat, she has eyes of a hawk :)

I've just listened to an amazing radio program on BBC 4 about sensory perception, I highly recommend listening to it if you can access it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000zlqc
After listening I searched for Prof David Eagleman online and eventually found his commercial offerings.
It so happens that the device is proven to work on tinnitus. It's not cheap and doesn't appear to be available in the UK yet but I thought I'd post as it's such an interesting area of research.
https://neosensory.com/tinnitus-solution/

The programme, which did not impress me, was on R4; I listened thrice.

I was not impressed by the contributors, and know that Jim Alalili has on BBC4 on a programme on gravity, stated serious errors.

There has been an increasing tendency for a certain subsect of academia to not only use media as a showcase for themselves, but also for there to be much mutual ingratiating during programmes.

There is a professor of mathematics who keeps saying 'like', mid sentence, and in a way which is not consistent with correct grammatical usage.

There are a few examples of very good academics, and one is Dr Sam Willis; very articulate, correct intonations and sensibilities, and humble.

I think, in common with our society, academia has become dumbed down, but of course it is possible to attempt to discredit my opinions because I do not have a degree.

Yesterday i had a remote video consultation with an audiologist at the hospital, she reset my hearing aids to work with open domes (they allow rather than block normal hearing and then the hearing aids complinent), she also remotely installed a music programme.

I need to have the volume set slightly higher than before but way way lower than without hearing aids and i have to say music is sounding way better than it has for a long time, serious upgrade.

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Originally Posted by Mr.Ian

Yesterday i had a remote video consultation with an audiologist at the hospital, she reset my hearing aids to work with open domes (they allow rather than block normal hearing and then the hearing aids complinent), she also remotely installed a music programme.

I need to have the volume set slightly higher than before but way way lower than without hearing aids and i have to say music is sounding way better than it has for a long time, serious upgrade.

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That’s incredible that they can do that remotely! But even better that it has improved things for you. :)

I had a car accident about 3 years ago, all the air bags went off, resulting in hearing loss in my right ear, something to do with how I was angled in the seat of the car at impact.
Tinnitus for a couple of years, and now just a big gap in certain frequencies.
The last 2 years has been a search for amplification that has the flexibility needed, as some days i need to have the balance and Treble canted more towards the right ear.
I started off with an Accuphase pre that had separate tone controls for each channel, and a balance control, but I didn't like the over all presentation, the Accuphase sound?
I tried several combinations of pre and power, and even an integrated, but nothing really worked.
Then I stumbled across the Pass Labs XP30 pre.
This has 4 live outputs , 2 x Master , 2 x Slave , and a gain wheel on each of the 2 channel boxes, which operate independently.
So you can bi amp, using entirely different amps for LF and HF, and change the gain to suit.
So, I've now got the LFs being driven by a 300W Class D power amp, Master, and the HFs are driven by my Plinius SA100 MK3 , about 150W Class A , slave.
I can dial in , or out, the HFs with the wheel(s) at the front, and there's a balance control too.
And I can swap between AB and A bias on the Plinius too , hooligan or Sophisticated !
Seems to have solved my problem , fingers crossed.

good to hear neil.. if you still struggle you could try nuraphone cans. they adjust freq to suit your ears. other possibilities are in digital pc type front end where you can alter freq at every point etc. roon can i think, as can jriver.