Tube Heaven: The great Telefunken 803S and Tesla E83CC

For some time now I've used a Tesla E83CC in my Croft preamp as my NOS ECC83-type tube of choice (along with the main output NOS 6SL7 tubes I've mentioned before on another thread, RCA5691s and Tung Sol 6SU7GTYs), as they are to my ears, along with the Telefunken 803S, unquestionably the finest sounding ECC83/12AX7s ever produced.

The filigree detailing, sheer midrange 'presence' and huge soundstage these tubes give has to be heard to be believed!! :eek:

To that end, I bought a matched quad of NOS ones from 1982 from Tubemonger in the US before they were discontinued to do me for years (these are exactly the ones I bought). Btw, this is the 'proper' Tesla from Czechoslovakia, not the inferior 'JJ' of today:


http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8701/2612.jpg


Telefunken 803S:


http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/2740/803s4a.jpg


However, there are TONS of fakes around, and people claiming that grossly inferior tubes are 803s or E83CC, which makes it a bit of a minefield for people trying to distinguish between them.....

So, I found a couple of interesting articles which describes exactly what to observe when looking for GENUINE 803s or E83CC frame-grid tubes:


http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/ECC83-part-numbering1.html


http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/images/Fakes/index.htm


Therefore, if you're in the market for buying these very special tubes which have such unique and desirable sonic characteristics, you'll no longer be fooled by inferior sounding imitations! :cool:

Marco.

Hello Marco.

Many thanks for your very informative links again.

I have been looking for low noise ECC83 type valves to the phono stage Nick is currently building for me. Have you tried new Russian valves with your Croft? I ordered some Tung Sol ECC803 to start with, but knowing myself there will be many more valve types I will try :doh:. Only problem will be that I need 4 of them and trial and test will be expensive :rolleyes:

I am most interested in valves which produce noise as little as possible, which will be important with my phono stage.

But given your new phono stage has two separate RIAA stages in it, you can just buy two and use in one chan for a back to back comparison to other types.

You are right :o

The simplest solutions are usually in the front of me, I just have to see them :doh:. One could not imagine better option to compare valves than that :lol:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lurcher

But given your new phono stage has two separate RIAA stages in it, you can just buy two and use in one chan for a back to back comparison to other types.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marco

For some time now I've used a Tesla E83CC in my Croft preamp as my NOS ECC83-type tube of choice (along with the main output NOS 6SL7 tubes I've mentioned before on another thread, RCA5691s and Tung Sol 6SU7GTYs), as they are to my ears, along with the Telefunken 803S, unquestionably the finest sounding ECC83/12AX7s ever produced.

The filigree detailing, sheer midrange 'presence' and huge soundstage these tubes give has to be heard to be believed!! :eek:


i
To that end, I bought a matched quad of NOS ones from 1982 from Tubemonger in the US before they were discontinued to do me for years (these are exactly the ones I bought). Btw, this is the 'proper' Tesla from Czechoslovakia, not the inferior 'JJ' of today:


http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8701/2612.jpg


Telefunken 803S:


http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/2740/803s4a.jpg


However, there are TONS of fakes around, and people claiming that grossly inferior tubes are 803s or E83CC, which makes it a bit of a minefield for people trying to distinguish between them.....

So, I found a couple of interesting articles which describes exactly what to observe when looking for GENUINE 803s or E83CC frame-grid tubes:


http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/ECC83-part-numbering1.html


http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/images/Fakes/index.htm


Therefore, if you're in the market for buying these very special tubes which have such unique and desirable sonic characteristics, you'll no longer be fooled by inferior sounding imitations! :cool:

Marco.

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Funny, I have just been down this route myself and did research Tesla etc regarding authenticity and did see that very informative site jacmusic. Subsequently I did get hold of some Authentic NOS Tesla ECc83 and stuffed the Croft 25R with said items.

I can concour that the result was unbelievable and a massive improvement over the JJ Teslas. It was difficult however obtaining these tubes as I dont think there are many genuine ones available on the open market.

I spent months researching NOS tubes as I believe you must have but the results are very much worthwhile.

Wish I had found this post on AOS way back as it would have saved me a lot of time, however the research was very educational. I would say for those intending to go down this route be very careful with purchasing any of these NOS valves as the genuine ones are nuggets of gold and as such are rare and often faked.

A year on from my last post I have now put some NOS Tesla ECC83,s in the valve reg stage. I was not expecting much difference but the improvement was dramatic. I have had enough NOS Tesla,s to do this for ages but only did this last night as an experiment.

The soundstage was far bigger and the sheer presence of vocals was astonishing. Everything became more focused and detailed and the whole sound lost some of its coarseness in comparison with the JJ Teslas I had previously in the regulation stage. Wish I had done this sooner.:doh:

My 12BH7A arrived today - a1960,s NOS GE 12BH7A with gold Frame Grid:stalks: This will be popped in the linestage next weekend so could improve things even further:eek:

I will update when it has burnt in.:)

Nice one, Jim. There's a MASSIVE difference between the sound of the best NOS valves, compared with current production pap. Enjoy! :cool:

Marco.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marco

Nice one, Jim. There's a MASSIVE difference between the sound of the best NOS valves, compared with current production pap. Enjoy! :cool:

Marco.

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You are certainly right there Marco. Might have to invest in some more so have enough NOS valves to see me out. :)

Can,t go back to some of those new production valves as the difference is simply too great.

One small thing that troubles me is getting hold of NOS valves that have never been used. There are too many circulating that have had many hours on them.

Might have to invest in a tube tester such as the one below:eyebrows:

http://www.gak.co.uk/en/orange-vt100...FUTnwgodcYsAdQ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

You are certainly right there Marco. Might have to invest in some more so have enough NOS valves to see me out. :)

Can,t go back to some of those new production valves as the difference is simply too great.

One small thing that troubles me is getting hold of NOS valves that have never been used. There are too many circulating that have had many hours on them.

Might have to invest in a tube tester such as the one below:eyebrows:

http://www.gak.co.uk/en/orange-vt100...FUTnwgodcYsAdQ

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That tester will not do much to sort the sheep from the goats, NOS is a condition rather than a measurable state. Theres an argument that you are better off with lightly used tubes anyway as they will not suffer the plate degradation as their getters have been more active mopping the stray gasses up before the damage gets done.

Agree about the Teslas, and the good news is that Peter at Edicron has stocks of them, very nice tubes.

It'll tell you if you are buying tired valves being sold as NOS though.

Cheers James I will take a look at that supplier. NOS Tesla's hard to come buy.:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ali Tait

It'll tell you if you are buying tired valves being sold as NOS though.

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Not necessarily. Valves that meet minimum manufacturers standard were sold as new. Say they degrade 30% and now test at 70% they will be hovering around the replace mark. New valves that measured much better than manufacturers spec that were sold new, lost 30% of emmission, can still measure well above that minimum spec, so even though they are far from new and arguably sonically tired they will measure as or better than minimum manufacturers standard. That is why this spec, now often taken as a litmus for NOS condition, is really not.
However I do agree that a valve that measures poorly cannot be to minimum manufacturers standard and so cannot be NOS in any rational sense unless new old reject stock and should definitely be avoided...
I hope this helps some who find the world of valves confusing [emoji2]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jazid

Not necessarily. Valves that meet minimum manufacturers standard were sold as new. Say they degrade 30% and now test at 70% they will be hovering around the replace mark. New valves that measured much better than manufacturers spec that were sold new, lost 30% of emmission, can still measure well above that minimum spec, so even though they are far from new and arguably sonically tired they will measure as or better than minimum manufacturers standard. That is why this spec, now often taken as a litmus for NOS condition, is really not.
However I do agree that a valve that measures poorly cannot be to minimum manufacturers standard and so cannot be NOS in any rational sense unless new old reject stock and should definitely be avoided...
I hope this helps some who find the world of valves confusing [emoji2]

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Good point James. It's a minefield when considering the number of valves advertised as NOS and worse than this is that generalisations get heaped on one particular brand or other, elevating prices (or the reverse) when quite often there may be less sonically between various brands than meets the eye, given two different valves with the same specs and measurements.

The other point is that many valve designations were more performance specs than blueprints for a specific construction and various manufacturers followed their own designs for their own reasoning, giving some very specific performance specifications for similar valve designations.

The ECC83 has long been used for the gain stage in preamps etc and is a very popular valve with a fair few differing constructions, meeting the same electrical output values (give or take). It's when one examines the construction for things like microphonics and consistency of batches for tolerance, that one can start to generalise more accurately. This involves a fair bit of research and testing and I wonder if any one resource as yet has all of that info clearly displayed? There are a few sites I know of which get close.

I've largely given up trying to get any warranted tolerance matching for NOS bought valves and to a greater extent dont bother these days as they're so ridiculously over-priced (Telefunken 803s in particular but also some of the ladder plate Mullards). I look for low microphonic new issue valves, and in particular recommend the gold pin JJ803s for ECC83 positions over just about any new valve (it's based on the Tele 803s construction). A cleaner sounding 83 type I've yet to find. The new types though have their own issues regarding matching, and can be 10% out on tolerance so where important, usually worth paying to have closely matched valves sorted together.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

You are certainly right there Marco. Might have to invest in some more so have enough NOS valves to see me out. :)

Can,t go back to some of those new production valves as the difference is simply too great.

One small thing that troubles me is getting hold of NOS valves that have never been used. There are too many circulating that have had many hours on them.

Might have to invest in a tube tester such as the one below:eyebrows:

http://www.gak.co.uk/en/orange-vt100...FUTnwgodcYsAdQ

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The pic shows a few 12BH7A's I rolled in my Air Tight ATM2. The best, I thought, were the RCA black plates by the boxes on the far right. The plates are a very gloss black, maybe made around 1966?

Mid-70's Mexican RCA 12BH7A were pretty good too. In that circuit:) Worth checking out sometime maybe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reffc

Good point James. It's a minefield when considering the number of valves advertised as NOS and worse than this is that generalisations get heaped on one particular brand or other, elevating prices (or the reverse) when quite often there may be less sonically between various brands than meets the eye, given two different valves with the same specs and measurements.

The other point is that many valve designations were more performance specs than blueprints for a specific construction and various manufacturers followed their own designs for their own reasoning, giving some very specific performance specifications for similar valve designations.

The ECC83 has long been used for the gain stage in preamps etc and is a very popular valve with a fair few differing constructions, meeting the same electrical output values (give or take). It's when one examines the construction for things like microphonics and consistency of batches for tolerance, that one can start to generalise more accurately. This involves a fair bit of research and testing and I wonder if any one resource as yet has all of that info clearly displayed? There are a few sites I know of which get close.

I've largely given up trying to get any warranted tolerance matching for NOS bought valves and to a greater extent dont bother these days as they're so ridiculously over-priced (Telefunken 803s in particular but also some of the ladder plate Mullards). I look for low microphonic new issue valves, and in particular recommend the gold pin JJ803s for ECC83 positions over just about any new valve (it's based on the Tele 803s construction). A cleaner sounding 83 type I've yet to find. The new types though have their own issues regarding matching, and can be 10% out on tolerance so where important, usually worth paying to have closely matched valves sorted together.

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Hi Paul,

oh, the joys of valves :)

Re; the JJ ECC803s they would appear to be a copy of the Tesla ECC803s which, as JAC music somewhat labours, is neither a frame grid, nor a close relative of the famous Tele ECC803s, but rather a variant of their long plate ECC83 using summat like Tesla's old tooling for their ECC803s which in turn was also not a frame grid. This however confers no implication from me on how it sounds or behaves which you have investigated and I haven't - I haven't even heard one AFAIK, so have that in my 'to do' tray which is currently about 8ft high :( We may be thankful they are good, at least one new ECC83 type is performing.

The only frame grid ECC83 production was from Tele as their famous ECC803s, and the Tesla E83CC. Since Tesla's demise the modern incarnation is the JJ ECC83s. I believe the original Tesla tubes have different metalurgy to the JJ ones and slightly different manufacture and glass, etc. The original Teslas are in my opinion fab sounding with low microphonics as standard. I do have a few of the JJ produced Tesla branded ones, but have never listened to them, that is also in the 8ft high list...Sadly the JJ ECC83s appear unloved by many who have tried them...

For the real obsessives there was a selected production stock of the old Tesla E83CC that got bought and branded by Mazda and these had gold pins. These may or may not be the same as the Tesla gold pin E83CC that some are selling nowadays; I have heard others (who should know) claim that the gold plating was added on the Teslas recently and no original stock was ever produced with them. I have some NOS Mazdas and they are old and of known provenance, the gold may or may not have been added at Mazda's factory for marketing, or Teslas, but it certainly wasn't added after original sale. They are very nicely made tubes, I have only tested mine, no reports of sonics.

Other notable frame grid tubes include the ECC88 and Western Electric 417a. The regularity of performance was the main advantage to manufacturers and electronics companies, this was achieved because the grid windings could be exceptionally consistent and fine, and the construction was well suited to (very high quality) mechanised manufacture. You can't even SEE the grid on a 417a without a magnifier, and it is spaced .045mm from the cathode and cathode to anode distance is only .58mm. No other winding method allowed such precision. In practice it was of especial benefit in double triodes where balanced sections, low noise, and linearity were (and are) highly desirable of course.

Hi James

yes, it is a Telsa copy, not the Tele as I mistakenly listed above...well spotted!

A little more data on the JJ 803s:

Product description:


The JJ/Tesla ECC803s Gold pin version is a hi-performance 12AX7 that has a spiral wound filament to reduce noise and hum. The construction is different from the JJ ECC83 in that the plates are more conventional, but have a special heat dissipating fin that serves to improve efficiency and gain. The plates of the tube are also longer as compared to most standard 12AX7 tubes. This over sized plate structure improves details in the bass and low mid-range responses.This is a premium sounding / high performance tube ideal for linestage preamps, mic preamps, studio gear etc. Long plated tubes are not suitable for combo/ high gain guitar amps because they can be prone to microphonics.

It's also a thick glass 12ax7/ECC83 type which is meant to further reduce microphonic risk, but as a long plate, it's still prone to microphonics so isn't recommended for guitar amps for that reason. It does make a superb audio amplifier valve though.

Data sheet (note the interesting comment "non-microphonic", yet it is a long plate type, so I don't buy the non-microphonic bit)

Datasheet

I've said this a few times - I had a pair of Tele ECC803S to see what the fuss was about and the Tesla ECC803S gold pins (not JJ).

I could not tell them apart in the Air Tight ATM2, even though the construction was different. Rare thing that I usually think I can when construction is different. I sold the Teles and made some money:)

Tesla tubes (not JJ) really are excellent - the top notch ones particularly as they produced different grades of various types.