Any needle drops for setting VTA?

I have been reading about the David Shreve method for setting your VTA. With certain records you can tell if its is too high if it sounds one way and too low if it sounds a different way. You converge on the correct setting using iterative mid-point selection method until you can't tell any difference. The range of adjustment is tiny, you are looking for a magic sweet spot in height thats sits inside maybe less 0.5mm height variation at the arm.

Of course I have tried and I don't get anywhere.

English descriptions of the "sounds" are no use to me, they say "muddy" "bloated", or "hard", "edgy", "sibilant", but I have a good system and i doesn't hear any of those things anyway.

I want to be able to "hear" what it sounds like, the extent of variation.

So I am looking for an audio recording somewhere that clearly illustrate how it sounds when too high/too low/and in focus. But I can't find anything. Anyone have a link, does anyone fancy doing one, am I deaf, or is it all a load of nonsense anyway?

AI tells me "nonono you can't use generic needle drops, they are not from your system, you must do your own", this isn't helping.

I apologise in advance if this has already been asked and answered.

Happy new year!
Peter.

I think you can drive yourself mad trying to find the ideal - thicker 180-200g pressings will cause the arm to be more 'tail down' compared to older 120-150g discs, making the sound more bassy and less defined (to my cloth ears anyway).

And Shibata stylus profiles are reportedly more critical then say eliptical. That is my understanding, but I could be mistaken. I certainly didn't want to have to go to the lengths of changing platter mat thicknesses to suit, so changed my 2M Black for a "lesser" Quintet blue, and no longer think about it.

So many ways to set VTA, use the one which sounds best.

what cartridge do you use?

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Originally Posted by karma1967

what cartridge do you use?

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Fozgometers are easier to use than Oscilloscopes. :lol:

What is a "needle drop" in the context of audio? I've heard the phrase a few times in recent years but never before, is it an Americanism or something that started getting used the same time as "vinyls" for records?

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Originally Posted by Lawrence001

What is a "needle drop" in the context of audio? I've heard the phrase a few times in recent years but never before, is it an Americanism or something that started getting used the same time as "vinyls" for records?

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The term “needle drop” refers to the sound made when a needle is placed on a vinyl record. It was originally used by radio DJs who would play records live on air. The phrase became popularized in the 1960s when it was used as a technique in film scoring.

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Originally Posted by peter

Ortofon Cadenza Black.

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That Cadenza Black is fitted with a nude Shibata stylus on a boron cantilever. It is thus very sensitive to VTA setting.

The only practical way of finding the optimum VTA that suits you is to use a pickup arm which allows a continuous adjustment of VTA whilst the record is playing.

I have a cartridge fitted with an Ogura 5 x 20 um stylus which is a fine-line stylus similar to, but slightly smaller than a Shibata stylus. I find that the best VTA is achieved when the tone arm is exactly parallel to the record surface, when the cartridge is playing at the recommended VTF (usually about 0.25g below the maximum).

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Originally Posted by Barry

The term “needle drop” refers to the sound made when a needle is placed on a vinyl record. It was originally used by radio DJs who would play records live on air. The phrase became popularized in the 1960s when it was used as a technique in film scoring.

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I assumed it was referring to the same thing but I can't imagine what it means in the context of setting VTA. As in what information you can get to help you set vta from the fraction of a second the needle physically lands on the record and stabilises. I'm still sure I've never heard it in the context of turntables until recently.

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Originally Posted by Wakefield Turntables

Fozgometers are easier to use than Oscilloscopes. :lol:

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The Fozgometer is designed to help in setting up the cartridge azimuth, and hence the L - R channel balance. It cannot be used to set up the correct VTA for a cartridge.

Ok so I looked it up and got this from t' internet.

Audio Context
A needle drop refers to a version of a recording that has been transferred from a vinyl record to digital audio or other formats.
It is often used when the original vinyl recording is not available in a digital format.
Other terms for needle drop include "vinyl rip" or "record rip."

So the usage now makes sense to me, but I still want to know how long this phrase has been used and where it came from. Mainly as it annoys me so much and I want to make sure there's a good reason it annoys me. (Like it was invented after I grew up in the 1980s as I think any phrase invented after then is annoying [emoji23]).

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Originally Posted by Lawrence001

Ok so I looked it up and got this from t' internet.

Audio Context
A needle drop refers to a version of a recording that has been transferred from a vinyl record to digital audio or other formats.
It is often used when the original vinyl recording is not available in a digital format.
Other terms for needle drop include "vinyl rip" or "record rip."

So the usage now makes sense to me, but I still want to know how long this phrase has been used and where it came from. Mainly as it annoys me so much and I want to make sure there's a good reason it annoys me. (Like it was invented after I grew up in the 1980s as I think any phrase invented after then is annoying [emoji23]).

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I would say at least fifteen years if not more. Being able to 'digitize' vinyl in the home with inexpensive consumer products wasn't possible back in the 1980s.

Probably it started in use when it became possible to create a sound file on a computer and link to it on line. Not sure when that was, maybe late 1990s?

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Originally Posted by Lawrence001

Ok so I looked it up and got this from t' internet.

Audio Context
A needle drop refers to a version of a recording that has been transferred from a vinyl record to digital audio or other formats.
It is often used when the original vinyl recording is not available in a digital format.
Other terms for needle drop include "vinyl rip" or "record rip."

So the usage now makes sense to me, but I still want to know how long this phrase has been used and where it came from. Mainly as it annoys me so much and I want to make sure there's a good reason it annoys me. (Like it was invented after I grew up in the 1980s as I think any phrase invented after then is annoying [emoji23]).

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I have one arm that nothing can be adjusted on the fly, another (Reed 3P) that can adjust azimuth, VTA and anti-skate on the fly.

As others above, I've found dead level with a 180g disc works. I've tried minor adjustments of VTA and there is no snapping in to place.

Anti-skate I do with a big gap on the HiFi News test record that allows you enough time to stop the arm swinging on or out.

Azimuth seems very critical for balance, my phono stage has a setting mode, play a 1khz test tone and the VU meters should react equally. That you can hear doing it on the fly.

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Originally Posted by Macca

I would say at least fifteen years if not more. Being able to 'digitize' vinyl in the home with inexpensive consumer products wasn't possible back in the 1980s.

Probably it started in use when it became possible to create a sound file on a computer and link to it on line. Not sure when that was, maybe late 1990s?

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I've heard of vinyl rips long before I've ever seen the term needle drop used, I'm convinced in this context it's quite recent phrase, and one that makes no sense.

Anyway I must go and do a few more laser drops tonight, I've still got several thousand CDs to rip.

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Originally Posted by Lawrence001

I've heard of vinyl rips long before I've ever seen the term needle drop used, I'm convinced in this context it's quite recent phrase, and one that makes no sense.

Anyway I must go and do a few more laser drops tonight, I've still got several thousand CDs to rip.

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It's not recent but I agree it makes no sense. But then neither does 'ripping' given we already had the word 'copy'.

Although I still 'tape' tv shows even though I've not used a VCR to do that in 20 years.

Apologies to the OP for a bit of thread drift but I've re-read the first post and now understand it so it's been worth it [emoji23]

In my language I think what you want is a digital copy of a record playing with the VTA set too high, too low and just right?

Ideally it would also be of a record you own so that you can compare it to your system with various levels of VTA so that you get the closest sound to the ideal copy, with the caveat that every TT will sound different so it's not a case of sounding the same but the equivalent sweet spot between the various settings.

Was playing a new record, when the first side finished the stylus jumped back into track again.

Just about to send the record back when i thought I better try another couple of records, all the same issue, I am aware that I should know how to solve this but my aged brain is not working.

Any suggestions?

Assuming you haven't moved your deck or whatever it's resting on (check it's still level), maybe bias adjustment? Or maybe arm is barely clearing the arm lift?

Good advice there.

For what it's worth, modern stylus profiles require much less anti-skating bias than the earlier conical profiles used. Some arms display the anti-skating force in grams to match the vertical tracking downforce, also expressed in grams.

In my experience modern bi-radial stylus profiles only need about 1/3 that suggested for a conical profile stylus.

But check the deck is level in both planes, using a spirit level, first.

Thanks Steve and Barry , the deck has not been moved, will checked everything again today,

Apogies thought I had started a new thread for this.

No worries Robin, hopefully it'll be something and nothing. First rate front end you got there. Be sure to let us know how you get on :)

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Originally Posted by Pigmy Pony

No worries Robin, hopefully it'll be something and nothing. First rate front end you got there. Be sure to let us know how you get on :)

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Will do Steve, many thanks, the turntable is sounding good.

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Originally Posted by rmcin626

Thanks Steve and Barry , the deck has not been moved, will checked everything again today,

Apogies thought I had started a new thread for this.

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I've never seen it specifically given as the reason but the ground under houses does shift between summer and winter as the amount of water changes, so the TT level should be regularly checked, especially if you're in a clay ground area (like London).

Still I think anti skating is more likely for this particular issue but would be interested to know if you find anything.