Kef Reference

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12-10-2021, 09:55
MisterMoseley

Kef Reference

morning all
Having previously asked about Celestions, I had lots of great/helpful answers and several pointed me towards older KEFs as a possible alternative.
I’ve come across a pair of model two-twos and before I do anything, just wanted to ask opinions.
Room 4.3 * 3.8m. Amp Rega Brio 50 WPC.
Any things I should look for in particular? Any weak points on these? Any common faults/items needing repairs?
Replacement parts/driver availability?
Thanks so much for any help if only to say ‘they’re not for you’.
12-10-2021, 11:17
Macca

Very good speakers but low impedance, so I'm not sure you will get the best out of them with the Brio amp which is not designed for 'difficult' speaker loads.

Foam can deteriorate on the driver surrounds, but that is repairable. Tricky though as there are drivers inside the cabs.

You might be better off looking for a Rega speaker if you want to keep the amplifier long term.
12-10-2021, 12:25
MisterMoseley

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macca

Very good speakers but low impedance, so I'm not sure you will get the best out of them with the Brio amp which is not designed for 'difficult' speaker loads.

Foam can deteriorate on the driver surrounds, but that is repairable. Tricky though as there are drivers inside the cabs.

You might be better off looking for a Rega speaker if you want to keep the amplifier long term.

Thanks, Martin

I’m not against upgrading the Brio but with budget not unlimited, I’d need a compelling reason to do so. And because the KEFs would have been an option but no more, that probably isn’t a good enough reason for me.

I realise that Rega speakers are the sensible and sound advice but (bit embarrassed here) I simply don’t like how they look. I realise that it’s a very personal thing but I can’t feel any love for those side firing woofers!

Stuart
12-10-2021, 16:29
Lawrence001

You won't hear them at their best with the Brio. You're better off with some 104/2s with their "conjugate load matching" but be prepared to do the inner bass speakers' doughnuts (and outer surrounds if they're the later biwire version) and even the tweeter ferrofluid, unless you pay more for a serviced pair.

When you say your forever speakers could be Celestion 44s or some older KEFs, I'll say it again, try some IMF TLS80s!!
12-10-2021, 18:52
MisterMoseley

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lawrence001

You won't hear them at their best with the Brio. You're better off with some 104/2s with their "conjugate load matching" but be prepared to do the inner bass speakers' doughnuts (and outer surrounds if they're the later biwire version) and even the tweeter ferrofluid, unless you pay more for a serviced pair.

When you say your forever speakers could be Celestion 44s or some older KEFs, I'll say it again, try some IMF TLS80s!!

Thank you Lawrence

I have to be honest and say I’d overlooked your comment about the TLS80s. Apologies.

I know precisely nothing about IMF speakers but will now make the effort to read what I can and see what’s around.

Stuart
12-10-2021, 19:50
walpurgis

The big IMFs are incredibly heavy, as in being a two man job to shift them safely :).
12-10-2021, 19:56
MisterMoseley

Quote:

Originally Posted by walpurgis

The big IMFs are incredibly heavy, as in being a two man job to shift them safely :).

just starting to dawn on me just how big/heavy these are. even the TLS50s look big enough for my lounge.

I’m not surprised that there appears to be almost nothing for sale at the moment. Still, I’ll keep looking - the same as I’m doing for several other makes/models.

the sad thing is that if I do find anything I like the look of then it’s going to have to be ‘one in, one out’
12-10-2021, 20:21
walpurgis

Nice looking set of TLS 80 Mk.II here.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334166592...4-633737353438
12-10-2021, 23:50
Lawrence001

I think I paid £400 for mine with the usual scratches on the top and the odd one on the side. One B110 was slightly scratchy but I sorted it with some sound advice from @edward . The B139s had the odd dint/scratch which seems par for the course for some reason.

In terms of sound they are worth what's being asked on eBay given the restoration if the cabinets and drivers are basically mint. In fact you'll not find anything like them in the market today as far as I know. I'd say £5k+ easy if there was something like them now looking at current prices.

Yes I know imaging is not top class but I didn't find it bad at all as some say, and their presence and soundstage are unrivalled (with the exception of the biggest Tannoys) so it's just a matter of taste.
13-10-2021, 06:51
Macca

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterMoseley

just starting to dawn on me just how big/heavy these are. even the TLS50s look big enough for my lounge.

I’m not surprised that there appears to be almost nothing for sale at the moment. Still, I’ll keep looking - the same as I’m doing for several other makes/models.

the sad thing is that if I do find anything I like the look of then it’s going to have to be ‘one in, one out’

I have some TLS 50 that I would sell.
13-10-2021, 16:03
Lawrence001

I was going to suggest the 50s if you didn't have room for the 80s, or struggle to find any
13-10-2021, 21:47
MisterMoseley

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lawrence001

I was going to suggest the 50s if you didn't have room for the 80s, or struggle to find any

thanks.
I’ve been in touch with Martin following his offer of the 50s. He kindly linked me to his previous post where I discovered that the 50s need far more space behind them then I have available. I’m really disappointed that they’re a ‘no’ as well - I really like how they look.
I appreciate that Super Compacts aren’t TL but just wondering if they should be considered?
Stuart
14-10-2021, 06:08
Lawrence001

I used my 80s one foot from the rear wall, they are front ported from the line. Where did you read that they need to be away from the wall?
14-10-2021, 06:37
MisterMoseley

in one of Macca’s old posts. We’ve been in touch by PM and he kindly offered me a pair of 50s.
I need to go back and see if I’ve misread or misunderstood it. Quite possibly I have in view of your comments.
Thanks
14-10-2021, 07:23
walpurgis

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterMoseley

I appreciate that Super Compacts aren’t TL but just wondering if they should be considered?
Stuart

Some like them, but I didn't think they were particularly special.
14-10-2021, 07:35
walpurgis

If you are still interested in classic speakers that are KEF derived or built (IMFs include KEF drivers), you could do worse than a set of KEF Reference 104AB's or the previous very similar 104 speaker, they have great transparency and at least second-hand parts are available. A proper 'Classic' design and beginning to be recognised as such, prices for good examples are rising and I anticipate will get rather steep soon.
14-10-2021, 07:51
Lawrence001

Duplicate post
14-10-2021, 07:59
Lawrence001

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterMoseley

in one of Macca’s old posts. We’ve been in touch by PM and he kindly offered me a pair of 50s.
I need to go back and see if I’ve misread or misunderstood it. Quite possibly I have in view of your comments.
Thanks

Every room will be different. You can excite a certain node in any room and moving the speakers back and forth can help, so even going closer could sometimes work. Although it's generally true that placing speakers closer to the rear wall changes the balance towards the bass (some are voiced to be against the wall and sound thin otherwise).

In almost all cases putting big speakers with rear ports close to the wall is bad, although I found my Celestion A3s didn't mind at all which was a surprise. The IMFs aren't rear ported so don't suffer from this.

In the case of the IMFs some people used to bass reflex rather than transmission line say the bass is too light. In fact that is probably because it's very neutral and goes very low but without and exaggeration, which reflex speakers tend to have around the port tuning, it makes them sound bigger and bassier but it's not neutral. So again a reason you shouldn't worry too much about the wall.

Lastly I've learned though much trial and error that a "strong" amp can help with bass control. Whether that's watts, current or damping factor I'm not sure. I suspect it's a combination of all 3. You can actually get a great tight sound from a Yamaha pro amp for under £150 if you don't mind the pro looks. That way you can have big speakers in a modest room not far from the wall. You'd need a pre as well though, unless you have digital volume at source. It has attenuation knobs on the front which can keep you going while you look for a pre.

So I wouldn't be concerned about the wall, but as I said each room is different. If you can get them at a good price and they are in nice condition then you should be able to move them on quickly, there's plenty of demand for the classic IMFs.

Having said all that I'd be interested to read Martin's comments as people's experiences can differ according to room, system and personal taste. Can you paste a link in the thread?
14-10-2021, 11:31
MisterMoseley

Hopefully, you’ll be able to click on this link;

https://theartofsound.net/forum/show...ight=imf+tls50
14-10-2021, 19:34
Lawrence001

Thanks, the comments about being close to the wall in a small room seem to be surmiseb rather than from experience, and I've tried the 80s close to the wall so I think you'll be ok. Having said that every room is different.

The last comment from DJSR on the need for a high damping factor aligns with mine, and his opinions were very well respected when he was on the forum.
16-10-2021, 19:07
Lawrence001

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterMoseley

morning all
Having previously asked about Celestions, I had lots of great/helpful answers and several pointed me towards older KEFs as a possible alternative.
I’ve come across a pair of model two-twos and before I do anything, just wanted to ask opinions.
Room 4.3 * 3.8m. Amp Rega Brio 50 WPC.
Any things I should look for in particular? Any weak points on these? Any common faults/items needing repairs?
Replacement parts/driver availability?
Thanks so much for any help if only to say ‘they’re not for you’.

Urgent PM sent,!
18-10-2021, 18:10
Lawrence001

Have you seen the Chris Rogers TLs in the classifieds? Not a million miles away from you and the perfect chance to dip your toe in the TL water, if not maybe find your keeper speakers.
18-10-2021, 20:48
Batty

I have a pair of KEF Reference 104aB, and can drive them with an 8 watt class A Pass ACA to reasonable listening levels, so I'm sure the Brio would be plenty for those if you could find a pair, I would avoid the non aB version though as it is not as robust with higher power amps.
19-10-2021, 15:16
MisterMoseley

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batty

I have a pair of KEF Reference 104aB, and can drive them with an 8 watt class A Pass ACA to reasonable listening levels, so I'm sure the Brio would be plenty for those if you could find a pair, I would avoid the non aB version though as it is not as robust with higher power amps.

many thanks for this.
The 104ab is one of the speakers previously recommended and it’s on my list of possibles.
Stuart
24-01-2022, 12:15
Bencat

I own two pairs of these which have been stacked and made active and they sound immense . They also sound excellent as a passive speaker and being sealed baffle they work best close to a wall which is ofet useful in smaller rooms . This looks to be a reasonable pair and they should go for a pretty low price .

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/165294020...AAAOSw2ZBh1xW3