Analogue MM fun

Dear all, vinyl and analogue lovers specifically (you know who you are!).

Recently I've been getting into some good ol 'broadcast style' mm carts. I like their classic 'full, warm' (etc, etc) sound and compared to my MC carts I certainly don't worry about keeping 'track' (ahem . . sorry) of the hours put on them. I like having a 'chuck a record on it' TT (AT-LP5 at the moment) so it's a pretty flexible tonearm (medium/low-medium mass).

I know a few people have previously referenced offerings such as:

Technics EPC 270C
Shure sc35c/v15/n97
Tonar Diabolic
Pickering XV 15/XSV range
Stanton 681/881/980/981
Nagaoka 321

FEEL FREE TO ADD TO THE LIST!

I'd really like to hear of others experiences in regards to ultimate 'matches made in heaven' combinations of turntables/arms/styli etc. I've modified (nuded) and rebodied a few styli in my short experience so again I'd love to hear what others have done to get good cartridges to compete with some more expensive offerings on a relative budget.

Others factors I'd be interested to hear about are headshells/wires/bolts etc, anything that has had a positive effect.

Looking to experiment with making up a few carts so if anyone has anything they might like to move on also, I could be interested! Also recommendations for stone cold bargains to be had would be appreciated.;)

Wishing everyone some analogue fun in these times.

Cheers!

The only "MM" cartridges I have experience of are the following:

Shure M3D^*
Shure M55E (Brown body)
Shure M55E (Black body)
Shure V15 II (Improved)^*
Shure V15 III^*
Shure SC35C^*

ADC 25
ADC10E Mk.IV

AKG P8ES

B&O SP6
B&O MMC20S
B&O MMC20E
B&O MMC20EN

Decca Mk.III
Decca SC4E

Decca Mk.V (aka 'Blue')
Decca Mk.VI (aka 'Gold)

Grado FTE+1^*

(^* no longer own)

All are good in their own way and are well worth trying, with the possible exception of the ADCs and the Deccas.

The ADCs have a very high compliance (as high as 60cu), so can only be used in tonearms with a very low effective mass. Futhermore, the soft rubber cantilever suspension quite often will have collapsed after such a long time (these cartidges are now around 50 years old), though third party replacement stylii are available.

Deccas are a bit of a 'law unto themselves' and benefit from the use of a damped medium mass tonearm. You also need to be careful with mating the three-pin connection of the catridge to the four leads in the headshell. But get it right, and they do things that no other cartridge to my knowledge can do.


I would also add the Sonus range of cartridges to the list; these being Peter Prichard designs made after he left ADC.

The shure M55E & SC35C are my favourite old school cartridges and when properly modified and matched can outperform most of today's offerings. You need to make sure cartridge output isn't too high with these carts as sibilance can be a problem. Make sure the cartridges "see" the correct amount of loading. This can be done by working out the capacitance of all cables in the signal path and then adding the relevant amount of additional loading via loading plugs into your MM phonostage. The M55E works with with after market Stylii, especially JICO and I've found aftermarket wooden bodies dampen the cart sufficiently to improve it's performance but still allowing vibrancy. I personally use a snakewood body which can be purchase from online. Both the shure carts offer a cheap way into getting into MONO recordings if you so wish, especially the M55E with the N55-1 replacement stylus for pre 1970 mono recordings, post 1970 and you'll need 0.7 stylus. My Shure's are used exclusively with a valve MM phonostage and to be honest make a really nice sound.

Sorry to repeat the above but the M55e is a truly great cartridge especially if you can get a NOS Shure stylus or use the expensive but in my opinion even better Jico eliptcial replacement stylus.

Another great MM I would add to the list is the Audio Technica AT95ex, this has a little more extra detail than the standard AT95e and is truly great for so little money!

Thanks for the replies so far chaps. The shure's are definitely on my list.

I'm a big fan of my 'nuded' and wooden bodied AT95EX too. It's incredible value for money really.

I have returned to my pre1980 A&R P77. It has been retipped with a Shure hyper elliptical and also the suspension has been renewed with higher compliance - it now tracks at 1.4 grams instead of its original 1.8 and it sounds wonderful. Full, majestic and high class in my Ittok LVIII and into my valve phono. My Esco Troika is in its box and it can stay there. I won’t be going back to it.

I also run a P77 in my case the P77Mg, (have 2 Mgs & a std P77) on a 401/RB250. Got back into them last year for my 2nd 80s system as it was my 1st proper cart (originally fitted to a Mk1 Mantra) and it sounds even better than I remember.

So since writing the first post I've managed to get my hands on a Technics 270c (completely brand new old stock) which I've mated with an aftermarket elliptical stylus. There's an image of it in action over on the 'get yet cartridges for the lads' thread.

Okay so it might not be quite up to the performance as with the original stylus but for the price it sounds really nice to me. Surprisingly dynamic yet beefy. A really fun listen.

Also on the recommendation of this thread I've also just bought a Shure M55e, again it comes with an aftermarket elliptical stylus so I'd be looking to try it with an original NOS one too at some point.

Looking forward to that arriving to have a listen too.

Cheers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Opti-cal

Also on the recommendation of this thread I've also just bought a Shure M55e, again it comes with an aftermarket elliptical stylus so I'd be looking to try it with an original NOS one too at some point.

Looking forward to that arriving to have a listen too.

Cheers.

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Good the M55e is a special little cartridge. Get in contact if you need any advice to hot-rod it.

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Originally Posted by REXTON

Good the M55e is a special little cartridge. Get in contact if you need any advice to hot-rod it.

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Thanks Andrew, always interested in the 'hot-rodding' aspect! Probably best you educate me before I waste any hard earned on mediocre styli etc....

Happy to converse via PM or on here.

Cheers

My Pickering XSV/4000 with D4000 stylus.

https://i.postimg.cc/FFPpvG0Q/cart.jpg

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Originally Posted by camtwister

My Pickering XSV/4000 with D4000 stylus.

https://i.postimg.cc/FFPpvG0Q/cart.jpg

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Lovely cartridge there - possibly a little too much filter?!?! Looks like its being beamed up by Montgomery Scott!

I've got a Pickering XV15 with Stanton 890e stylus 2 on the way. Prob not quite as nice as yours, but I have high hopes for it!

Shure M55e report . . . .

So I mounted my newly acquired M55e last night. Not the easiest to line up as the stylus guard on the Jico stylus gets in the way a bit and distorts your view of the stylus tip and cartridge body.

Anyway after some faffing about I got it fairly close to perfect channel balance after which just slight loosening and re-tightening of headshell screws can (after some experimentation) really 'dial in' the sweet spot.

Put on some of my go to records, kapow! Christ this thing is LOUD, possibly the Jico stylus gives it a little more oomph but it was way more than I was expecting having just swapped out a cartridge with very similar output. It tracks like an absolute demon, nothing has even gotten close to phasing it so far. Can't really detect any distortion either and its via a tube phono stage plus I use a tube pre-amp, so any grain becomes fairly obvious.

Sounding very accomplished too. Textured, layered but with good detail and instrument placement. I had my 390pf loading plugs in so just for fun I tried some 330's. Things improved further and there was now real nuance and realism to the music.

I guess I'm probably around 470-500pf in loading capacitance. Some have suggested going up above that, but as my system is very revealing bordering on bright with some material (although I run dual subwoofers!) it seems to sound best with the cart giving a slightly more 'dark' presentation.

Great stuff anyway, a definite keeper. Think I can stretch to a new Jico stylus once every year or so too no concerns putting many, many miles on it.

Thanks all for the recommendations, I know why this cart is so well regarded now, it gets out the way and really allows the music through. Does quiet and loud well (surprisingly dynamic) which is a difficult trick to pull off whilst being an excellent tracker, I can't really fault it!

Here she is:

https://i.ibb.co/8c0ZST9/IMG-20210308-230025-477-2.jpg

Woohoo congratulations Chris that looks great! I must pop mine back on the VPI soon!

If you have a new Jico stylus in the M55e at the moment it will get quite a bit better after 50 hours or so.

Told you so, it's an excellent cart. 450-500pf sounds about spot on. My advice would be to buy the best JICO you can afford for even more of what you've just described.

If you pop in the Jico SAS stylus the M55e moves to another level altogether!

That looks like this Jico stylus https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n55e-improved/

I have the slightly cheaper one and it's excellent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brian2957

That looks like this Jico stylus https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/n55e-improved/

I have the slightly cheaper one and it's excellent.

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Yes sir, that's the one.

The price/performance ratio is spot on for me. With an SAS my mind would be conscious of putting hours on it . . . . but never say never.

Aye, the SAS is a bit more than I want to spend too Chris. The Audio Technica LP5X has been on my radar for a while. I've never had a direct drive T/T in my system and would love to try one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brian2957

The Audio Technica LP5X has been on my radar for a while. I've never had a direct drive T/T in my system and would love to try one.

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If bang for buck is the goal, you cannot go wrong with the AT. New one also has moved the power supply to an external unit giving the possibility to upgrade it further with a low noise (iFi type) or a full on linear supply.

Moving the transformer out of the turntable will only yield positives over the original me thinks.

Ah..I see the LP5X uses a 12V 2A SMPS. I have a Chinese linear PSU which will be perfect I think. Otherwise, as you say, IFI or another manufacturer will supply an upgraded unit.

It also comes with the ATVMN95E cartridge which should sound very good.

Hi Chris,
The 270c is an extremely good well balanced MM cart being dynamic, with a midrange warmth. Only in the treble does it betray its relatively humble origins. Nagoaka provided the original stylus and the great news is its still available new from Japan.
It was supplied by Technics on the SL-1600/1700 range and this really is a heavenly match. Easily competitive with a modern £200 MM cart.
The genuine nag cart is well worth seeking out. Here is a 270c on the almost identical SL-1300. Final pic shows the 1300 with an OM cart.

Attachment 29287Attachment 29288Attachment 29289

Chris could you let me know if the LP5 has a height adjustable tonearm?:scratch:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

Chris could you let me know if the LP5 has a height adjustable tonearm?:scratch:

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Sorry just seen this Jim, that's a negative I'm afraid.

If it did I wouldn't have to use another TT mat and a shim in every cartridge, its bloody annoying.

Amazing design oversight as with the standard cartridge as it comes from the factory, the VTA is miles off and it cannot be changed without the aforementioned tweaks.

My suspicion is if it did have height adjustment, this TT would be stepping on some much more expensive competition . . . .

Hi Chris, I took delivery of an AT LP5x the other day and I'm well pleased with it :)

I did try it with a Linear PSU but preferred it with the SMPS. Go figure :)

How do you shim the arm BTW ? I was thinking you would have to loosen the screws at the bottom of the arm pillar and shim it that way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brian2957

Hi Chris, I took delivery of an AT LP5x the other day and I'm well pleased with it :)

I did try it with a Linear PSU but preferred it with the SMPS. Go figure :)

How do you shim the arm BTW ? I was thinking you would have to loosen the screws at the bottom of the arm pillar and shim it that way.

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Shims for the cartridges Brian.

I have to do it for every one, its getting quite annoying as I have quite a few.

I did give some thought to lowering the original height of the arm to negate the need for the shims but I came to the conclusion that leaving it standard was the best policy at the time.

Maybe they have fixed the issue on the newer model (I have a 2018 model and I think they've made a couple of changes since).

Is your arm and cartridge dead straight to the record without the need for an additional mat or shims?

If so, hey presto they've addressed and fixed the issue!

Even given those issues its still an excellent turntable, especially considering the price.

Just checked Chris and it's spot on with the supplied cartridge, ATVM95E. Things may change when I try another cartridge later on.

Any problems with hum on yours ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brian2957

Just checked Chris and it's spot on with the supplied cartridge, ATVM95E. Things may change when I try another cartridge later on.

Any problems with hum on yours ?

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That's good news Brian, I assume they have corrected any minor issues for this version.

No hum at all, really quiet actually. Are you using the internal phono stage or a line out into a separate phono stage?

Mine is so well grounded (and yours may differ as it's an external PSU) that I don't actually need the ground wire. Yours may be different of course?

Do you have a hum issue?

The internal phono stage is pretty decent IMO ( MM as I don't have an MC Cartridge )

However, I prefer the phono input in my Roksan Kandy integrated.

Yes I did have a hum issue, cured partly by using an earth wire, and completely by using interconnects with the screen connected to the plugs at the turntable end.

Once that was sorted I just found this turntable to be so user friendly and I'm very pleased with it :)

Chris, suggestions for an aftermarket headshell for the LP5 please :)

Hi Brian,

I've had success with a few different models. Very much dependant on the cartridge you're running of course in order to maintain the best compliance (combined total weight of headshell/cartridge/tonearm).

If you're sticking with the same Audio Technica carts I believe the standard headshell is pretty much the best match. I've tried a few but anything between 7-9g seems to be about right.

Personally I also quite like the Ortofon SH4's, they are a tiny bit heavier but still work well and look very nice.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ORTOFON-S....m46890.l49292

For some of my other carts I also use this generic machined aluminium headshell.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CNC-Machi....m46890.l49292

Lastly these are also very decent for the price, work well if you have a slightly heavier cart as they themselves are so light.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tonar-319....m46890.l49292

Not a huge amount sonically between them although some just sound better with certain carts.

More a matter of aesthetics but fun trying different ones anyway.

Thanks for the very detailed answer Chris, it's much appreciated.

Thing is, we seem to have a similar taste in cartridges, owning both an AT95EX and a Shure M55E fitted with a Jico stylus.

I'm afraid I'm a bit cack-handed and would rather mount each cartridge on it's own headshell to save me breaking leads or worse.

No problem Brian, the M55 works really well with the CNC machined one I referenced, it seems to like a slightly heavier headshell.

I have my AT95EX in the Ortofon and it sounds great to me. Once I have a cart mounted in a headshell and aligned etc I don't want to fiddle with it either so know what you mean.

For me the LP5 and these kind of carts represent a really good price/performance area where I'm happy to spend the money on them and use them daily without worrying about wearing through styli or replacing other parts.

Yup agreed Chris. This is my first direct drive turntable and I'm really happy with the LP5X :)

I will be following your recommendations and ordering the headshells. Thanks again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by camtwister

My Pickering XSV/4000 with D4000 stylus.

https://i.postimg.cc/FFPpvG0Q/cart.jpg

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I've got the lower xsv3000 and D3000 .

When compared against an epc p205mk3 the 3000 was certainly not out performed by the technics.

Chris, you wouldn't have been lucky enough to compare the 3000 and 4000 pickering's?

Keith

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hagzo

I've got the lower xsv3000 and D3000 .

When compared against an epc p205mk3 the 3000 was certainly not out performed by the technics.

Chris, you wouldn't have been lucky enough to compare the 3000 and 4000 pickering's?

Keith

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Hi Keith sorry the only (and very new) experience I have is with a Pickering XV15 . . . . the pic above is not mine. I've heard only good things about the models you mention though.

My XV15 appears to have a slight suspension issue but from what I can hear does sound nice, when its not spitting with sibilance that is, a likely result of the suspension woes . . . . oh well, that's vintage kit for ya . . .

My bad Chris!

Note to self: engage brain and don't try to reply to a forum while getting kids out the door in the morning.......home schooling is over you fool!!!

I re-read and noticed it was Johnny dodgem that posted the pic of his xsv4000 - hopefully he'll pick up.

I got a xsv3000 still attached to sony headshell that I bought from Yankville about 10 years back. I only took a serious look at it a couple of months ago when I switched it with an epc p205mk3. First listen to the xsv and I thought wow; that is very musical and a very different representational from the Japanese models that I typically use. I liked it so much that I had a quick look for higher models in the range (like the 4000) but they're thin on the ground, needles are few and far between and, like you said, the suspension on old stuff is a problem - this is definitely the case with the p205mk3. I have 2 that are nearly useless on account of collapsed suspension in the needles. Alhough I can use one by retro-fitting the needle from a epc100 mk1 to it. It fits ok and the body of the p205 works better than the epc100

Keith

Here is a very tasty MM cartridge with great dynamics and great sound.

ADM XLM Improved Mk2. This one was from Japan and mint but unfortunately sold now.

https://i.ibb.co/chkQWmW/IMG-1259.jpg

A nice pair! Both with NOS original stylus, yikes they were rough!

https://i.ibb.co/qRp0rfT/P1020190.jpg

Currently spinning.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...b192a4307f.jpg

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by hagzo

My bad Chris!

Note to self: engage brain and don't try to reply to a forum while getting kids out the door in the morning.......home schooling is over you fool!!!

I re-read and noticed it was Johnny dodgem that posted the pic of his xsv4000 - hopefully he'll pick up.

I got a xsv3000 still attached to sony headshell that I bought from Yankville about 10 years back. I only took a serious look at it a couple of months ago when I switched it with an epc p205mk3. First listen to the xsv and I thought wow; that is very musical and a very different representational from the Japanese models that I typically use. I liked it so much that I had a quick look for higher models in the range (like the 4000) but they're thin on the ground, needles are few and far between and, like you said, the suspension on old stuff is a problem - this is definitely the case with the p205mk3. I have 2 that are nearly useless on account of collapsed suspension in the needles. Alhough I can use one by retro-fitting the needle from a epc100 mk1 to it. It fits ok and the body of the p205 works better than the epc100

Keith

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No worries Keith, easily done.

Luckily most days I get to 'escape' the house early doors for work before my two year old wakes up. Sometimes he catches me though and his mum cannot hide the glee on her face as she knows I'm now roped into help with the morning 'routine' . . . .

Apparently we're having another one . . . not sure why, self truculence in the utmost, gotta love em though. (Actually got to).

I've got another XV15 with stanton stylus (890e II) on the way as like I say there is something slightly wrong with the other one, although from the brief listening I did the top end (although sibilant on mine) was exceptionally sparkly and reached higher than most of my other carts. I would imagine the XSV series only further improve this sound signature.

Good to hear they out-perform some of the 205's as they are even harder to get hold of!

Cheers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by oldius

Currently spinning.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...b192a4307f.jpg

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

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Nice, heard a lot about ADC's too. Quite underrated by all accounts or perhaps less well known would be more accurate as there don't seem to be any less than glowing reports on them.

What headshell is that Geoff? Looks good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Opti-cal

Nice, heard a lot about ADC's too. Quite underrated by all accounts or perhaps less well known would be more accurate as there don't seem to be any less than glowing reports on them.

What headshell is that Geoff? Looks good.

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The ZLM is reputed to be one of the best MMs. The headshell is AT's 50th anniversary headshell.

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Not sure what the differences were between the XLM and ZLM series of ADC cartridges but the XLM improved mk2 (30 x 10-6cm/Dyne 1975, tip; Diasa elliptical)was one of the highest rated for MM performance and indeed sounded great in my system. Very powerful and focused sound.

They're not MMs though. They're IMs.

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Originally Posted by walpurgis

They're not MMs though. They're IMs.

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Yes they are Induced magnet cartridges, similar to moving Iron so your are right geoff not technically a MM.

I believe Soundsmith employ moving iron designs. The principle is also not that far removed from the moving armature type which Decca use.

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

Yes they are Induced magnet cartridges, similar to moving Iron so your are right geoff not technically a MM.

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I didn't know that, cheers.

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Shure Ultra 500 Jico sas stylus Martin Bastin body. Bought used and thought £500 was expensive at the time, but now they are going for a grand or more if you can find one. Ended any thoughts of mc carts.