Cartridge / Phono Combo for Thorens TD 160

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06-01-2021, 09:53
panos_adgr

Cartridge / Phono Combo for Thorens TD 160
Hello dear friends

I would like to ask for your advice through your experience.
I recently bought a Thorens TD160 with a Thorens TP 16 tonearm and an old Empire 999 cartridge.
I want to purchase a cartridge to replace the old Empire and a phono stage.

For the cartridge the budget i want to spent is 300 euros. I'm thinking of only MC's;
- Audio Technica AT-OC9XEB
- Audio Technica AT-F7
- Audio Technica AT-OC9XEN
- Audio Technica AT33EV (Exceeding budget which means less money for phono pre amp)
- Denon DL-103
- Denon DL-103R
Any other suggestions are welcome to discuss.

For the phono pre amp section the budget is until 450 euros and I'm thinking of;
- Musical Fidelity LX2-LPS
- Cambridge Audio Duo
- Vincent PHO-8
- Rega Fono MC
- Pro-Ject Audio Phono Box DS2
- Pro-Ject Audio Phono Box DS+
- Naim Stageline (Exceeding budget)
The system is (int amp) Pass Labs INT30A with (loudspeakers) Audio Physic Scorpio II.

As for the phono pre amp I would prefer to be punchy in drive (it surely has to do with cartridge matching). I'm listening all kind of music genres.

I would like to thank you in advance.
Happy new year to all!
06-01-2021, 10:11
Jac Hawk

Cartridges are in the most part down to personal taste and some cartridges will play better with your setup than others, for the budget i wouldn't rule out MM the Audio Technica VM750SH I've heard and it's very good indeed or if you want the to keep the retro look and you can find a good low hours used one an Ortofon VMS30 Mk2 would be a good match.

Regarding the phono stage, buy 2nd hand, i bought a Project tube box a year or 2 ago, i didn't pay a great deal for it and it's a great little thing, not the last word in phono stages by any means but it's very pleasing on the ear.
06-01-2021, 10:24
panos_adgr

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jac Hawk

Cartridges are in the most part down to personal taste and some cartridges will play better with your setup than others, for the budget i wouldn't rule out MM the Audio Technica VM750SH I've heard and it's very good indeed or if you want the to keep the retro look and you can find a good low hours used one an Ortofon VMS30 Mk2 would be a good match.

Regarding the phono stage, buy 2nd hand, i bought a Project tube box a year or 2 ago, i didn't pay a great deal for it and it's a great little thing, not the last word in phono stages by any means but it's very pleasing on the ear.

Thanks for the reply Mike!

I'm also thinking of a second hand phono pre amp because it will give the chance to have a better result. Suggestions would be welcome.

As for the cartridges yes. You are right that is a matter of personal taste. I used to own a TT setup in the past and I was using the Clearaudio alpha MM cartridge. Can't say that I was pleased enough though. The sad thing is that I cannot try any cartridges....
About the retro looks I do not mind. I prefer to install a good cartridge sound wise rather aesthetically wise.
06-01-2021, 11:23
Jac Hawk

I'd agree with your comment about sound over looks, the reason i mentioned the VMS30 was that it was more than likely one of the cartridges that the arm was designed to use, so it should sit within the arms compliance sweet spot, also it's still an incredibly good cartridge in its own right and in my view as good if not a bit better than the 2m Black which is its modern equivalent.

Here's one i found on ebay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Eine-Lege...kAAOSwCj9fid3w
06-01-2021, 12:30
panos_adgr

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jac Hawk

I'd agree with your comment about sound over looks, the reason i mentioned the VMS30 was that it was more than likely one of the cartridges that the arm was designed to use, so it should sit within the arms compliance sweet spot, also it's still an incredibly good cartridge in its own right and in my view as good if not a bit better than the 2m Black which is its modern equivalent.

Here's one i found on ebay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Eine-Lege...kAAOSwCj9fid3w

You have a point here, about cartridge and arm matching. I must check it out first.
As for the Ortofon VMS 30 MKII yes I've seen many setups during my search in the internet, before I purchased my thorens. It is a combination well met in many TD 1xx + TP 16 systems. Thanks for the link!
06-01-2021, 12:48
walpurgis

I wouldn't be too quick to sideline the Empire 999 if in good condition. Depending on stylus (there were various), it should sound pretty decent.

The TP16 arm is of medium to highish mass and is compatible with a wide range of cartridges.
06-01-2021, 13:11
panos_adgr

Quote:

Originally Posted by walpurgis

I wouldn't be too quick to sideline the Empire 999 if in good condition. Depending on stylus (there were various), it should sound pretty decent.

The TP16 arm is of medium to highish mass and is compatible with a wide range of cartridges.

Well I've read a few things about the Empire Cart.
I haven't received my turntable yet. I found it in an online site for used things in another city of country. It is received though by a family person who lives there and I'm waiting to send it to me soon. I was informed that it is like unused, and so does the cart look like. But until I get it in my hands I can't say a thing.
The Empire that is mounted on is the 999 VE/X.

The Thorens TD 160 I found is untweaked and all original. And judging from the Cartridge I think that it might be its first one.

Edit:
Well I had a look in ebay and there are stylus replacements for the Empire!
So as you said Geoff I will have a look first on the Empire's condition, do some listening with it and if I'm pleased I might keep it. There a few comments around the net being positive about it. But as we fore mentioned it is a matter of personal taste when it comes to listening.
06-01-2021, 21:27
Barry

Is it a TD160 Mk.I or Mk.II?

The arm on the Mk.I had a high effective mass of 16.5g, whereas that of the Mk.II arm is lower at around 7g.

If the latter, the Shure M75ED or the Ortofon VMS20 or 30 would be a good match.

Agree with Geoff, the Empire 999 is less well known but is a very good cartridge. Replacement stylii are still available:

https://www.lpgear.com/product/EMPS0999AEX.html
https://snvinyl.co.uk/Empire-S-999-V...artridge-999VE
06-01-2021, 22:04
panos_adgr

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry

Is it a TD160 Mk.I or Mk.II?

The arm on the Mk.I had a high effective mass of 16.5g, whereas that of the Mk.II arm is lower at around 7g.

If the latter, the Shure M75ED or the Ortofon VMS20 or 30 would be a good match.

Agree with Geoff, the Empire 999 is less well known but is a very good cartridge. Replacement stylii are still available:

https://www.lpgear.com/product/EMPS0999AEX.html
https://snvinyl.co.uk/Empire-S-999-V...artridge-999VE

Hello Barry!
It is the MK1. Basically I was looking for a MK1. And I found it. And yes indeed the arm is the tp16 with 16.5g effective mass.

I haven't put my hands on it yet. I'm waiting to receive it.
I have read good comments about the Empire 999 EV/X. Although it is an old cartridge there are users who say that is quite good.
I've done also my research for stylus replacement.
I want to give it a try as it is first and then I'll see what I will do.

Geoff was right. From the moment that the empire has a good rep I should check it out. BTW I had a look on ebay and I found a NOS one for 200 and something, euros. Anyway...

I also checked out for the Ortofon VMS30 and I found some nice reviews. I'll have it in mind.

I will start studying the case of phono pre amp.
07-01-2021, 18:39
worrasf

FWIW (maybe not much) but I have found from personal experience in my TD 150 my Decca Supergold is superb. I have no experience of your tonearm as I'm using a Mission 774 into a Quad 33/303 (both fully Net Audio upgraded).
This combo works very well and betters many other cartridges (MC & MM) by a country mile on this TT.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...9d1f1003c9.jpg

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
07-01-2021, 19:07
Barry

The Mission 774 arm is a very different beast to the Thorens TP16.

Whilst I agree a Decca cartridge can work well in a Mission (probably because of the facility for damping), I would hesitate to recommend its use in a Thorens arm.
07-01-2021, 19:22
walpurgis

Quote:

Originally Posted by worrasf

FWIW (maybe not much) but I have found from personal experience in my TD 150 my Decca Supergold is superb. I have no experience of your tonearm as I'm using a Mission 774

Now you'll have 774 owners asking where you got the nifty armrest from ;).
07-01-2021, 19:26
worrasf

Quote:

Originally Posted by walpurgis

Now you'll have 774 owners asking where you got the nifty armrest from ;).

Who me ?
What arm rest ?
.[emoji848]

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
07-01-2021, 19:42
panos_adgr

Quote:

Originally Posted by worrasf

FWIW (maybe not much) but I have found from personal experience in my TD 150 my Decca Supergold is superb. I have no experience of your tonearm as I'm using a Mission 774 into a Quad 33/303 (both fully Net Audio upgraded).
This combo works very well and betters many other cartridges (MC & MM) by a country mile on this TT.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...9d1f1003c9.jpg

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

Nice set up!

I have also no experience on my tonearm and TT. I haven't received it yet. I'm waiting for it. First thing I'm going to do is change the belt (I have order a couple) and service it. For the moment I will keep it as it is and listen to it. I want first to buy a phono preamp and check it with its cartridge as Geoff suggested. Then I 'll see what I'm going to do. I haven't had a TT for the past 5 years. I sold my old TT 5 years ago and I've kept my records. I always liked vinyl. So it is a nice chance to start over again.

I do know how I got into, buying this thorens.... I was looking around in ebay a month ago and I saw a Thorens TT and it all started. :)
10-01-2021, 00:29
panos_adgr

Today I received my Thorens TD 160 / TP16/ Empire 999 VE/X setup.

I spent about 3-4 hours cleaning it and examining it outside and inside. It is in a pretty good shape for its age but it needs some work.
I have to check and adjust suspension strength and level alignment.
I have order a motor knocking repair kit (it doesn't knock but it it not absolutely quiet)
I ordered an SRM Tech motor vibration damp rubber ring.
The Empire is in excellent shape but I think it needs stylus replacement. I will decide in the next weeks what I'm going to do with it.
It looks absolutely beautiful!
Now, that I have it in front of me, I understand all the hype around Thorens TD turntables.

As for the phono choice I'm more on the Clearaudio Nano Phono V2 or Smart Phono V2 but it is not a final decision

It needs some work and it will be fine!

https://i.postimg.cc/FH1xnVgw/DSC-0053.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/fR6Yqnb0/DSC-0034.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/nr0v3XsH/DSC-0032.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/CMNHhQcW/DSC-0055.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/sXz7yY7j/DSC-0041.jpg
13-01-2021, 15:29
Jac Hawk

Very nice, it looks in good condition, when you come to adjusting the suspension I’d recommend replacing the standard nuts with nyloc ones, they will be less likely to unscrew themselves over time and mean that once everything is set up it should stay that way for longer, other things I’d recommend are damping the top plate and sub chassis with bitumen sheet and replacing the motor circuit board.

other than that change the belt, clean and re oil the bearing and give the platter rim a polish with brasso wadding or duraglit
https://www.flickr.com/photos/185433...7/50087760407/

https://flic.kr/p/2jj5S8Z
13-01-2021, 19:56
panos_adgr

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jac Hawk

Very nice, it looks in good condition, when you come to adjusting the suspension I’d recommend replacing the standard nuts with nyloc ones, they will be less likely to unscrew themselves over time and mean that once everything is set up it should stay that way for longer, other things I’d recommend are damping the top plate and sub chassis with bitumen sheet and replacing the motor circuit board.

other than that change the belt, clean and re oil the bearing and give the platter rim a polish with brasso wadding or duraglit
https://www.flickr.com/photos/185433...7/50087760407/

https://flic.kr/p/2jj5S8Z

Yes indeed! It is optically in great condition. I've polished it and it looks super!
I have lubricated all the parts inside, the mechanisms and it works smoothly!

As for the functional condition I have ordered the following

Original Thorens belt
Motor vibration damping ring
Motor thrust bearing kit because motor is a bit noisy.
New suspension spring set from vinyl nirvana
New sponges for suspension
New stylus replacement for the empire 999 ve/x cartridge. An original NOS Astatic / Empire stylus.
New rca Plugs

And I'm waiting for them.
It is optically excellent and I want to service it and make it as new.
When I first took it in my hands I was kind of in love with it!
It is built optically and functionally in a way that makes the use of it an experience.

Edit
I will need help for adjusting spring tension. Vinyl Nirvana wrote to me in a question of mine after the spring purchase that he is going to send me 'how to' instructions. BTW the bolts of the new springs are with a material that prevents unscrewing. I think as you said that are made with nylon inside the nut.