Garrard '401's & stuff

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13-07-2010, 17:37
Rare Bird

Garrard '401's & stuff

I started this cost it's killing the techy fora area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSJR

Hey, I've just thought of summat... :idea:

Andr'e, you used an FR64S and found CD vastly better! HiFi Dave used an SPU - IN AN FR64S and found the combo wanting..

I'm wondering if the FR64S is just not cutting it in terms of sound quality. Forget the cachet of such an arm for a minute, I'm talking of an arm which actually may not be as good as 1970's golden memories of it are....

P.S. My favourite 301/401 combinations were with SME's with properly matched cartridges, the Transcriptors "Fluid Arm" with ADC XLM and a couple in Bastin plinths with NAS tonearms (the old Omega Point arm/Decca was an awsome combination with a Garrard).

I'd agree with Andr'e about mains voltage affecting 401 motor speed and before too long I'll locate the early 70's article and scan it to post here as proof. The 401 didn't use a beefed up "Synchro Lab" motor, just a heavy-duty induction type as I recall and these are sensitive to mains voltage changes.

Whats Dave using the FR on?

I loved the asthetics of the Transcriptor arm but the cue was strange & dangerous thing :lolsign: That kite shaped headshell was realy nice looking design..Only ever used one on the Hydraulic Ref TT..

I was torn between the '401' & the 'TD124' at the time, i honestly couldnt decide which i prefered. I found the bottom end of the '401' larvley but the top end a touch restricted, quite the reverse with the 'TD124'..I ended up selling the Thorens keeping the Garrard
13-07-2010, 17:42
DSJR

I've turned down three TD124's in my time (stupid bunt) and rather prefer them to the common-or-garden Garrard, a 401 I still technically own if only I could get it back.

The FR is on a NAS Dias IIRC and this deck works with anything you can sling on it as far as I'm concerned, including Linn arms and SME V's..

Andr'e, you've had a huge amount of stuff over the years. You're not a Jerry clone by any chance ? :lolsign:
13-07-2010, 18:03
Rare Bird

I'm a magpie i always have been, i used to buy decks like changing underpants. Time when cash was plentiful.
13-07-2010, 18:18
Marco

Hi Dave,

Just to pick up on this:

Quote:

Hey, I've just thought of summat...

Andr'e, you used an FR64S and found CD vastly better! HiFi Dave used an SPU - IN AN FR64S and found the combo wanting..

It of course could be that you had a duff FR64, however I think it's more likely that the FR/SPU combo just didn't suit the Spacedeck - not in terms of any mechanical mismatch, but rather a sonic one: a lack of synergy, if you will.

In my experience, high-mass tonearms and SPUs work best on idler or direct-drive T/Ts, where the synergy is better. I've heard a few FR64s (fitted with M3Ds and 103s) on TD124s, for example, and the results are always superb :)

Likewise, my SPU sounds excellent in the Jelco on my Techie, or on Dave's Kenwood L-07D. Therefore I don't think the fault lies with the FR64, as to why the SPU you heard didn't work very well, but rather the arm and cartridge were on the 'wrong' T/T.

Marco.
13-07-2010, 18:38
hifi_dave

My FR-64S is the one I wrote about in Hi-Fi for Pleasure back in the very early 80's and it's been on more turntables than I can remember and had more cartridges bolted to it than you can shake a stick at.....:scratch:

At the time I was reprimanded for talking in glowing terms about high mass arms with detachable shells and MC cartridges. The establishment then was into low mass and 1/4 gram tracking weights. So long as it could negotiate a test disc it was the bee's knees....:doh:
13-07-2010, 22:31
Barry

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSJR

I've turned down three TD124's in my time (stupid bunt) and rather prefer them to the common-or-garden Garrard, a 401 I still technically own if only I could get it back.

The FR is on a NAS Dias IIRC and this deck works with anything you can sling on it as far as I'm concerned, including Linn arms and SME V's..

Andr'e, you've had a huge amount of stuff over the years. You're not a Jerry clone by any chance ? :lolsign:

Perhaps the three Thorens TD124/IIs you turned down are the three that I have?

I would have more decks if I could - though I might end up like Adam (Beobloke) who has, I believe, at least a dozen!

I'll stick to four, though I do fancy a Technics SP10. :)

Regards
14-07-2010, 07:10
DSJR

The first 124 was a chassis mk1 in 1975 in Kilburn for £25.

The second was in a basic HW plinth with SME for £50. I had an LP12 and didn't *need* another deck...... :mental:

The third was sixteen years ago, a mk1 with 12" SME for £125 and HiFi Dave bought it. The then owner bought my Mentor shortly after for peanuts :(
14-07-2010, 09:22
Marco

Hi Dave,

Quote:

My FR-64S is the one I wrote about in Hi-Fi for Pleasure back in the very early 80's and it's been on more turntables than I can remember and had more cartridges bolted to it than you can shake a stick at.....:scratch:

Like I said, I doubt the problem was with the FR-64S, but rather the lack of synergy between the FR-64S/SPU and the Spacedeck, because the 'syrupy', overly-lush, sound of the SPU described by both Dave R and your good self is diametrically opposed to what I get in my system with the Techie or in Dave Anderton's with his L-07D.

The SPU undoubtedly has a 'full-bodied' balance compared to many of today's moving coil cartridges, but as I've said before, that's only because the latter, IMO, are often artificially anaemic.

As you've obviously used the the FR-64S with various cartridges, on a multitude of turntables, did you ever find that it performed better with low-compliance MCs, on idlers or direct-drive T/Ts, than it did on medium-mass belt-drives; in fact, going a little further on this, did you ever try the FR-64S with an SPU on an SP10, L-07D, TD-124, Garrard, or something of that ilk, in a properly matched system?

By "properly matched" I mean one not set-up to 'expect' the inherent colorations of an LP12, which was of course the defacto T/T choice in the days of rampant Linn/Naim dogma when you were likely carrying out most of those comparisons.

Quote:

At the time I was reprimanded for talking in glowing terms about high mass arms with detachable shells and MC cartridges. The establishment then was into low mass and 1/4 gram tracking weights. So long as it could negotiate a test disc it was the bee's knees....:doh:

Lol - what idiots... I salute your free-thinking and for speaking out against "the establishment" of the day, as I detest any form of blinkered dogma. Long live the heretics, haha! Thank goodness these days we have forums like AOS, which allow the voices of genuine enthusiasts to be heard, pricking when necessary any dogmatic 'religion' portrayed by the hi-fi industry or media in order to further their commercial and financial interests.

Bursting such bubbles, by alerting people to viable or maybe better (often less expensive) alternatives than perhaps the industry would like, where the 'latest and greatest' equipment and new technology is ALWAYS portrayed as best, when that isn't necessarily the case, is something I take particular pleasure in doing ;)

I bet some don't like it, but they will just simply have to lump it, because Internet 'discussion boards', such as AOS, where people can freely voice their opinions on audio and music, not only represent the present, but the future..................

If only they existed 30 years ago, then the hi-fi industry (particularly the UK scene) would be in far better state than it is now!!

Marco.
14-07-2010, 10:28
Rare Bird

Just for the record. I had the FR64S on Garrard '401', Ariston 'RD11' Superiour & Logic 'DM101' (Last revised version) With Dynavector & Logic Moving coils. Prefered the Logic Deck out of all of em.
14-07-2010, 10:38
Marco

Nae probs, dude... Have you ever tried it with an Ortofon SPU on any of those decks, though? ;)

That's the crux of the matter, as far as my 'debate' with the two Dave's here is concerned.

Marco.
14-07-2010, 10:59
The Grand Wazoo

Love the track of the week idea Andre!
Good track too!
14-07-2010, 11:37
Rare Bird

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco

Nae probs, dude... Have you ever tried it with an Ortofon SPU on any of those decks, though? ;)

That's the crux of the matter, as far as my 'debate' with the two Dave's here is concerned.

Never use an SPU...

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Grand Wazoo

Love the track of the week idea Andre!
Good track too!

Thought you'd like the idea :) Just wondering if it's legal!
14-07-2010, 13:29
Beobloke

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry

I would have more decks if I could - though I might end up like Adam (Beobloke) who has, I believe, at least a dozen!

Eh? My wife certainly wishes I only had a dozen.

I sold one last week and so am currently down to 41 at present..........:)
14-07-2010, 13:59
Marco

41? You are a very, very mad poppet :eyebrows:

I doubt even hi-fi dave could compete with that! How many of them, though, do you use regularly?

Marco.
14-07-2010, 14:17
Beobloke

Well, if I include my main reference deck, the deck I use for playing singles, the deck I use when I'm reviewing and the deck I use as a spinning platter for record cleaning purposes, then I suppose the number of turntables in my collection that I use regluarly is....er....1.

But what the hell's that got to do with anything?!:rolleyes: :lol:
14-07-2010, 15:37
DSJR

Any chance of a list???????

Mine are all the "wrong" ones -

TD125/R200
Technics SL-150/G707 (may be selling this soon and it DOES have great potential)
Dual 701 (seriously good still and I love it to bits)
1972 Beogram 3000 x 2 (one for bits)/SP14 or SP12

and coming soon..

Thorens 160 Super/SME 3009 II Fixed
and maybe a Spacedeck if I'm VERY lucky - that will be the end of this turntable journey for now..
14-07-2010, 16:18
Beobloke

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSJR

Any chance of a list???????

Yes, absolutely -

ADC Accutrac +6
ADC Accutrac 4000
Aiwa D50 (with a tray front loader!)
Aiwa LP3000
Ariston RD80
Audio Technica Sound Burger
B&O Beogram 1202
B&O Beogram 1800
B&O Beogram 4002
B&O Beogram 5000
B&O Beogram 8000
B&O Beogram 8002
BSR Accuglide XR50
BSR Accuglide XR60
Empire 598
Garrard 301 (my main deck with Alphason HR-100S and Ortofon Kontrapunkt b)
Garrard 301 (with Decca FFSS arm and head - in a big walnut cabinet with Quad 22/II/AM2)
Garrard 401
Garrard AT6
Garrard BA1
Garrard GTD4 (shop display turntable, so maybe it doesn’t really count!)
Garrard Lab A
Garrard LAB80
Garrard Zero 100S
London Acoustical Developments EL80
London Acoustical Developments GAJ 835Mk2 twin deck (in a Sound Creations SC-909 DJ console)
London Acoustical Developments GAJ828
London Acoustical Developments GAJ942
Rational Audio Aura 01
Scandyna Dansk 1702
Sonab 65S
Sony Biotracer PSB80
Sony PS-Q7
Technics SL110
Technics SL1210Mk2
Technics SL-1960
Technics SL-3350
Vestax PVT-E2
Vestax PVT-E2 (another one – they were sold as a pair)
Zenith Autochanger of unknown model.

I don't think I've forgotten any......:scratch:
14-07-2010, 17:32
John

WOW:stalks:
14-07-2010, 19:01
tannoy man

Andre, I had a DM 101 with an Ittok and Supex SD 900 all new and sounding superb with Camebridge A60 and Mission 770 mk2
14-07-2010, 23:04
Rare Bird

Quote:

Originally Posted by tannoy man

Andre, I had a DM 101

Which near the end if it's time should have wiped the floor with most anything ;)
15-07-2010, 08:47
Clive

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beobloke

Yes, absolutely -

ADC Accutrac +6
ADC Accutrac 4000
Aiwa D50 (with a tray front loader!)
Aiwa LP3000
Ariston RD80
Audio Technica Sound Burger
B&O Beogram 1202
B&O Beogram 1800
B&O Beogram 4002
B&O Beogram 5000
B&O Beogram 8000
B&O Beogram 8002
BSR Accuglide XR50
BSR Accuglide XR60
Empire 598
Garrard 301 (my main deck with Alphason HR-100S and Ortofon Kontrapunkt b)
Garrard 301 (with Decca FFSS arm and head - in a big walnut cabinet with Quad 22/II/AM2)
Garrard 401
Garrard AT6
Garrard BA1
Garrard GTD4 (shop display turntable, so maybe it doesn’t really count!)
Garrard Lab A
Garrard LAB80
Garrard Zero 100S
London Acoustical Developments EL80
London Acoustical Developments GAJ 835Mk2 twin deck (in a Sound Creations SC-909 DJ console)
London Acoustical Developments GAJ828
London Acoustical Developments GAJ942
Rational Audio Aura 01
Scandyna Dansk 1702
Sonab 65S
Sony Biotracer PSB80
Sony PS-Q7
Technics SL110
Technics SL1210Mk2
Technics SL-1960
Technics SL-3350
Vestax PVT-E2
Vestax PVT-E2 (another one – they were sold as a pair)
Zenith Autochanger of unknown model.

I don't think I've forgotten any......:scratch:

I'm ashamed about having just 2 decks, bet you can't get them all in a single photo! :-)
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...kins/decks.jpg
15-07-2010, 08:58
Marco

Hi Clive,

Could you take a really nice close-up, high-resolution, photograph of Vic's T/T and pop it into the thread in Critic's Corner, where we're considering pictures of people's kit for the new banner?

Cheers, matey! :cool:

Marco.
15-07-2010, 09:27
Clive

Sure Marco....hi res, that's means I'll need to get the duster out!

BTW, that's my new DHT preamp below the 301. Review coming at the end of the month on enjoythemusic.
15-07-2010, 16:56
alfie2902

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco

Nae probs, dude... Have you ever tried it with an Ortofon SPU on any of those decks, though? ;)

Marco.

Marco,

I've had 2 different SPU's on my FR64s recently but not on my TT or in my system.

Speedy Steve's SPU silver Meister on my FR64 on ISC Voyd Ref through ISC system & the deck, arm, cart worked very very well together, both Steve & Pete prefered the FR64 to an SME V they had tried :eyebrows:. SPU silver Meister I want one :)

This was also bourne out on another friends 401 that he's just made a plywood plinth for! Through his system his SPU Classic GM E MKII on my FR64 also sounded very nice. I want one of these to & probably more in my price range!

Also, I've had a play with some plywood & my DP-6000 with the FR64 & 103 & this sounds promising or will do once a decent plinth is built & I've acquired an SPU or Io (In my Dreams). It didn't leave my old rubber band bouncy Systemdek with the same arm/cart behind though :)