LP12 & Denon DL 304

A few pics of my freshly re-tipped DL 304 riding in my freshly setup LP12.

Its just had a nude elliptical stylus put on it. Deck is sitting on a little shelf I made from double ply that is very rigid but light (as recommended for LP12's)

Arm is dead flat on 180g vinyl but I'm just wondering if the stylus looks a little acute to the record there?

It's only got a couple of hours on it so I'm thinking it might break in and drop a tad?

Sounding very good bar a bit of simbilance which I'm hoping will disappear with a few more hours.

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I really do like the look of an LP12. I can't help with your question, but I can pay your great looking deck a compliment :)

I would shorten those bolts, they could get very close to the record surface, they also add weight. What are they made from?

Try dropping the tail a little which may help with the sibilance, I assume you have all the other settings VTA, bias etc done?

Is the sibilance more prevalent on inner grooves?

Gary

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Originally Posted by Opti-cal

A few pics of my freshly re-tipped DL 304 riding in my freshly setup LP12.

Its just had a nude elliptical stylus put on it. Deck is sitting on a little shelf I made from double ply that is very rigid but light (as recommended for LP12's)

Arm is dead flat on 180g vinyl but I'm just wondering if the stylus looks a little acute to the record there?

It's only got a couple of hours on it so I'm thinking it might break in and drop a tad?

Sounding very good bar a bit of simbilance which I'm hoping will disappear with a few more hours.

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Judging from that first photo, the needle appears to be riding in the groove about right. Just slightly forward of 90 degrees. Of course this can be different for different manufacturers, but from some reading I’ve done in the past, it was suggested that the SRA (stylus Rake Angle) should be around 93 degrees, and the Sumiko cartridge I own says right in the paper work the same thing.

Plus, the bottom of the cartridge body looks parallel to the record surface, a good starting point, as most of the time that’s what the makers are going for.

But as always, the best test is how it sounds! If it sounds right, it probably is. Adjust the VTA, at some point it should pop into focus.

Russell

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Originally Posted by Stryder5

I would shorten those bolts, they could get very close to the record surface, they also add weight. What are they made from?

Try dropping the tail a little which may help with the sibilance, I assume you have all the other settings VTA, bias etc done?

Is the sibilance more prevalent on inner grooves?

Gary

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I was looking at the screw end too. Probably not a problem, but looking at it makes me nervous.

Russell

Thanks for the replies fellas.

After a prolonged listening session this evening I can confirm all is well. More than well in fact, it's breaking in and it's just wonderful to hear.

It's one of my favourite experiences of hi-fi ownership. Listening to a piece of equipment, be it tubes or a new cartridge, coming on song.

The sibilance was only apparent in what turned out to be a bad pressing of Dire Straits "Dire Straits". I'm much more used to the remastered digital version where obviously the more severe sibilant parts have been dealt with. I tried it on another TT with a perfectly aligned AT440mlb which deals with sibilance better than most being an ML stylus, it was still there so definitely the pressing.

Everything else I'm playing on it sounds really nice.

It was setup last week by Peter at Cymbiosis including fitting the cartridge and providing the bolts so I'm not gonna mess with that. They do seem a little long but the bottom of the cart is still lower than the bolts. Agreed they do look long though.

The cart is relatively light too so a little extra mass should be fine, the Ittok likes a little weight IME.

As you say Russell, if it sounds good, it should be.

Comparing it to a Benz Micro ACE (low output) I had on a Clearaudio Concept, I would say this is more musical and weighty. Probably not as detailed though and soundstage is not quite as big.... Yet. Here's hoping things improve even more as its only around 10 hours, but if it doesn't I'm happy anyway!

Cheers guys.

Chris

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Originally Posted by stairpost

I really do like the look of an LP12. I can't help with your question, but I can pay your great looking deck a compliment :)

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Thanks Rich, it was the old man's prior to my ownership and I thought it deserved a bit of love. He was a bit skeptical regarding the "upgrades" I've carried out but his fears will be laid to rest when he hears it for 5 seconds!

Cheers

I don't believe Cymbiosis would make a careless mistake when setting up your cartridge, and if your happy with the sound no worries. He's always on the end of the telephone should the need arise.

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Originally Posted by antonio

I don't believe Cymbiosis would make a careless mistake when setting up your cartridge, and if your happy with the sound no worries. He's always on the end of the telephone should the need arise.

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They wouldn't, Peter is the definition of professional and it was a genuine privilege to watch him work. As I say I believe any sibilance was present on the record I was playing as confirmed by my other TT.

I’ve always been intrigued by the LP12. Ive never heard one outside of a show, which isn’t really always the best place to make any judgement. Im not a 100% sure on this but I suspect that many recordings, particularly older ones, do have some level of sibilance or overloading of the mic when the singer lets go and more accurate cartridges and phono stages can pick this up where less detailed equipment can mask it. It can be hard to distinguish this from a worn cart or other issues though.

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Originally Posted by Primalsea

I suspect that many recordings, particularly older ones, do have some level of sibilance or overloading of the mic when the singer lets go and more accurate cartridges and phono stages can pick this up where less detailed equipment can mask it.

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These echo my thoughts. Listening to the same record on my other TT its still there, but seems a bit more pronounced with better cart/phono stage. I've not been able to detect anything like this level of sibilance from anything else I've thrown at it, so all is well.

The LP12 and Denon now drag out so much detail and music that there is no where for any imperfections to hide. My Quads also will not tolerate badly recorded material the way say my Loth X's would. Completely different setups mind.

Regarding the LP12 getting it setup was by far the best money I've spent on it. It's quite amazing how every little adjustment affects the harmony of the entire turntable. Hence why unless someone's been tinkering with it at a show for an hour at least (after its travels), its unlikely it would have sounded anywhere near its best. When it's setup properly though you'll know (hear) it.

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Originally Posted by Opti-cal

Thanks Rich, it was the old man's prior to my ownership and I thought it deserved a bit of love. He was a bit skeptical regarding the "upgrades" I've carried out but his fears will be laid to rest when he hears it for 5 seconds!

Cheers

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Fantastic! That's a great piece of kit to have inherited from your Dad, I'm sure he'll be very happy with the upgrades.

From what I know of Peter, your deck couldn't have been in better hands.

have a 304 without a tip wonder if its worth getting a quote to fix it ??

Looking good Chris, and as the guys have said, Peter is the dog danglies so im sure it sounds fantastic too. Did you have a listen to any of the other Lp12 ‘s he has there?


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Great looking LP12 you have there and set up by Peter.................can't get better than that.
If you look on the Cymbiosis website you should find VERY comprehensive details of how to rebuild/set up the LP12. Makes interesting reading should you ever need it

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Originally Posted by alan_g

have a 304 without a tip wonder if its worth getting a quote to fix it ??

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I'm now probably quite bias . . . but yeah. I'm probably around 50 hours now and it has improved from the 10 hour mark.

No attention drawn to it except to say its very musical. A grey-vanilla term to use I know but its not warm/bright/dull/analytical/rich etc in my setup.

Excellent match with the Linn of course.

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Originally Posted by Bigbird

Looking good Chris, and as the guys have said, Peter is the dog danglies so im sure it sounds fantastic too. Did you have a listen to any of the other Lp12 ‘s he has there?


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Unfortunately I did not get to listen to much else . . . actually make that fortunately. Mine was by far the cheapest deck there and sounding superb playing some Chris Jones stuff (I think).

I know the upgrade path is steep from here, won't be ruling anything out though.

Anything playing through their Kudos Titan 808's on anything half decent is going to be pretty special though.

They say you should spend the largest proportion of your outlay on the speakers. They're not wrong.

Sounds like you had a lucky escape then. It coulda been an expensive trip for you .

I agree with the speaker argument to some extent too. It was probably my biggest single upgrade going from my Q’s to Spendors. Huge jump in sound quality. All the other upgrades have been smaller and incremental but the speakers blew my mind.


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Are your Croft's sorted now Karl??

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Originally Posted by Opti-cal

Are your Croft's sorted now Karl??

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Yes all sorted thanks chris, it was a failed regulator that heats the filament so not too hard on the wallet. Still enjoying the new cart?


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Originally Posted by Bigbird

Yes all sorted thanks chris, it was a failed regulator that heats the filament so not too hard on the wallet. Still enjoying the new cart?


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Yup, I'm actually running it in a different system as my current main rig is not too well . . .

Its partnered with a single input 300b parallel configured amp and some Loth X horn speakers. Its a refreshing little change from KT88's and Quads.

Glad yours is sorted, maybe one day we'll both have our systems sorted at the same time?!?! Even if its just for 5 minutes!

Oh no what’s happened now?

These bloody hifi’s are a pain the arse arent they . We spend small fortunes on them and half the time they are either broken or were not happy with them [emoji849].


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Well . . . swapped my aging pair of Quad 63's with a fading treble panel for a pair of recently refurbished and much newer ones. Fully tested them at the sellers house and they were silent and sounding great. Drove like Miss Daisy with them wrapped up in a duvet to transport them home . . . you can probably tell where this is going.

Turned them on and one has a rattle on resonant bass notes and a slight mains hum and the other one has a ticking bass panel.

I literally have never had any problems transporting them (and less carefully) in the past.

Unfortunately the issues are audible from my listening position so completely ruins my listening experience!!!

Luckily I think the issue (rattling on bass notes) is the dust membrane needing re-stretching which can be done with a heat gun and the ticking panel might improve after a few days of "settling in" and acclimatising again after de-charging.

I had a bloomin lovely sounding system for a couple of months and was really enjoying it. But its like its always on a bloody knife edge, what with all tubes and electrostats its always going to be maintenance and potentially things going wrong all the time.

That's before I even get started on TT's and grounding issues . . . .

Wonder why we bother sometimes . . . (Well I do know why we bother but as you say, PITA!)

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Originally Posted by Opti-cal

Well . . . swapped my aging pair of Quad 63's with a fading treble panel for a pair of recently refurbished and much newer ones. Fully tested them at the sellers house and they were silent and sounding great. Drove like Miss Daisy with them wrapped up in a duvet to transport them home . . . you can probably tell where this is going.

Turned them on and one has a rattle on resonant bass notes and a slight mains hum and the other one has a ticking bass panel.

I literally have never had any problems transporting them (and less carefully) in the past.

Unfortunately the issues are audible from my listening position so completely ruins my listening experience!!!

Luckily I think the issue (rattling on bass notes) is the dust membrane needing re-stretching which can be done with a heat gun and the ticking panel might improve after a few days of "settling in" and acclimatising again after de-charging.

I had a bloomin lovely sounding system for a couple of months and was really enjoying it. But its like its always on a bloody knife edge, what with all tubes and electrostats its always going to be maintenance and potentially things going wrong all the time.

That's before I even get started on TT's and grounding issues . . . .

Wonder why we bother sometimes . . . (Well I do know why we bother but as you say, PITA!)

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Ah mate what a pain in the arse!! Do you think they were knocked about on route home or a dodgy restoration job?

Any luck in fixing any of the issues yet?


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Originally Posted by Bigbird

Ah mate what a pain in the arse!! Do you think they were knocked about on route home or a dodgy restoration job?

Any luck in fixing any of the issues yet?


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Must have happened on route as the seller, lets just say would have no need to "get rid" of or do a rushed job on restoring. He probably had 30k's worth in one room. A big dedicated listening room slightly larger than the downstairs of my house . . . . plus he was a genuine honest guy to boot and has since offered to help me fix them, which he had no obligation to do.

Just bad luck as I was super careful with them.

Luckily with some pounding bass tracks run through them the rattling does seem to have subsided. I think it is a dust membrane which apparently, when it goes, does a pretty good impression of an angry bee on bass notes. It's no longer audible from my listening position, which is nice.

Additionally the other speaker has "calmed" slightly too. Ticking is less audible and above all the music sounds as it should. That's the main thing.

As I'm moving soon I'll get them into their new home and then set about fixing them properly unless they magically heal after another move . . . sounds stupid but this has actually happened to me before . . . .

Cheers Karl.