TT with Optical Out (A Blasphemous outrage!)

Hi chaps and chapesses,

as the title suggest I am committing what would be regarded as audio sin by many and with good reason.

The main (audible) attraction of vinyl can be traced to its pure analogue signal path. In this realm most harmonic distortion within the signal is more than acceptable and often preferable, especially on some recordings. Nothing else quite captures the space and realism of recordings IMO.

So why then would I want to convert that signal into a digital one before reconverting it into analogue?

My reasons are two fold.

- Firstly I am a curious soul. I saw these turntables advertised with "USB out" for recording and such purposes a while ago and dismissed them for the reasons outlined above. They also appeared mainly on some relatively cheap equipment where the sound quality was not top of the list of requirements.

- Secondly I am short of inputs on my amplifier (1). I have a very good source selector switch which I use on my other system but using the optical out on a turntable I can actually send the signal through my DAC and straight into the amplifier without the need for another selector switch as the source can then be controlled from the DAC.


The turntable in question is a Pro-Ject Essential III Digital, a significant upgrade over the II and a decent offering in its own right regardless of the digital function. It has a decent MM phono stage built in and both the phono stage and digital/optical out can be bypassed to utilise a stand alone phono stage.


If the sound quality is desperately lacking compared to an analogue path I will revert to the phono stage and selector switch, but for a lot less than the cost of the switch I get the digital out option on the turntable compared to the price of the Pro-Ject Essential III (non digital).


Worth a try I reckon, anyway if anyone has any experience with this kind of thing or anything similar please chime in.


This is just a bit of fun with my second "budget" system and of course sound quality is still important, I'm fully aware it would undoubtedly sound at its best as a stand-alone turntable - phono stage - amplifier setup.


The digital out section is switchable between 48/96k, likely to be used in a Sonos/Receiver type setup but like I say, just a bit of fun to try.

At least I didn't give the bluetooth a second thought . . . .


Cheers,

Chris

Can a Sonos setup accept an optical input?
If it can then select 48KHz sample rate, because the Sonos stuff doesn't do 96KHz.

I'm not entirely sure to be honest re the Sonos input, sorry that wasn't worded particularly well.

When I said "likely to be used in a Sonos/Receiver type setup" I didn't actually mean by me! I was referring to the clientele it was marketed towards.

You are certainly correct in regards to Sonos being 48k hence why I think the digital out has this option.

I will be connecting it to a Jolida Glass FX III DAC just to hear what it sounds like but will also test the virtues of the table in a full analogue setup.

I was thinking it might be nice to use the digital connection to the DAC when I just have music on in the background of my lounge where my second system resides. Then if I want to have a proper listening session I can flick on my Mark Travis phono stage and switch the TT's output to RCA's.

My streamer also has a few digital in's and outs so I can send the signal to other components and just have a general play about!

Why on earth would you want to do such a thing? if you want to listen to digital music then choose a digital source as it will be far better and cheaper than changing from one format to another and then back again. Regardless of how fantastic your DAC is the ADC on the TT is doing the initial conversion so the end result will only ever be as good as the weakest link in the chain. If it was me i'd be looking to spend £339 on something else as the whole reason for listening to vinyl is to get away from the sterilisation caused by digital encoding.

This TT is aimed at people that have SONOS and the quality of the sound isn't as high on their list as aesthetics and convenience but they like the idea and nostalgia of records and a TT, unfortunately vinyl is anything but convenient, it needs to be looked after and stored correctly to maintain it's sonic quality, i would imagine the the people who in general would buy this would stick an old LP on that they have had in storage since their las TT was scrapped probably back in the 90's, realise it's sounds shit and regret the purchase while phoning Richer Sounds to see if it can be returned or at least be exchanged for another one of those fantastic little SONOS speakers.

Hi Mike, I'll try and address your questions.

- Firstly the TT is fairly decent in its own right and as I was in the market for a decent budget TT it fitted the bill. The digital output is not the reason for the purchase, its just a little bit of a gimmicky bonus and a bit of fun to try.

- As stated I am fully aware a lot of the attractions of vinyl will be lost in the conversion (and subsequent) re-conversion of the signal. I am just curious to hear what it would actually be like.

- It's not destined for my main (critical) listening system, I just wanted something that I could chuck a record on in my second system. To listen to digital I have to turn on my NAS drive located in another room, wait for all the connections to find each other and connect to my streamer via my phone. In actual fact if I'm stood next to my hifi its probably a toss up between which method would be more convenient to listen to at the time. (Assuming the vinyl is to hand).

- Preaching to the converted on the rest of your points, spent 3 hours last night cleaning 30 or so brand new 180 gram reissue albums (as they often arrive absolutely filthy even when "sealed"). I am saving up for a proper machine but for now the acid bath wheel method will suffice.

Basically its just a little play about with some tech that comes with a decent turntable for not much more outlay over the non digital version. As both the inbuilt phono stage and ADC can be bypassed its not exactly going to be a problem for me.

For my proper listening experience I will migrate to the loft and power up the Quad 57's and LP12, no issues there.

Appreciate what you are saying though (hence the title of the thread . . . )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jac Hawk

Why on earth would you want to do such a thing? if you want to listen to digital music then choose a digital source as it will be far better and cheaper than changing from one format to another and then back again. Regardless of how fantastic your DAC is the ADC on the TT is doing the initial conversion so the end result will only ever be as good as the weakest link in the chain. If it was me i'd be looking to spend £339 on something else as the whole reason for listening to vinyl is to get away from the sterilisation caused by digital encoding.

This TT is aimed at people that have SONOS and the quality of the sound isn't as high on their list as aesthetics and convenience but they like the idea and nostalgia of records and a TT, unfortunately vinyl is anything but convenient, it needs to be looked after and stored correctly to maintain it's sonic quality, i would imagine the the people who in general would buy this would stick an old LP on that they have had in storage since their las TT was scrapped probably back in the 90's, realise it's sounds shit and regret the purchase while phoning Richer Sounds to see if it can be returned or at least be exchanged for another one of those fantastic little SONOS speakers.

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There are many reasons. I started off with vinyl in the 1970s and was a reluctant adopter of digital. In fact, for more than a decade after the introduction of cds, I continued to purchase new albums on vinyl rather than digital format. I did buy a cd player and would purchase compilation albums and best of collections, but never really warmed to the sound. However, as the price differential between cds and vinyl reduced, I gradually veered towards digital, largely in expectation that the technology would improve and that currently harsh sounding disks would sounds better in the future. By the mid 90s I had effectively switched to cd for new purchases. At that same time, I started a series of long term overseas contracts that saw my vinyl and valve equipment go into long term storage. Two decades later, I have a huge cd collection that dwarfs my vinyl collection and have duplicated many of the titles I originally bought as albums. However, there are many discs which never made the transition to cd, including many "world music" titles.

Since getting my vinyl out of long term storage, I have been enjoying listening to music I have not heard in over 20 years as well as listening to music on vinyl that I have only heard on cd during this period. I have noticed that many of the early cd transfers were very poor and that much of my old vinyl still sounds better than the cd equivalent. I have recently sold off a lot of my vinyl hardware (e.g. an EAR834P, A Croft Phono Preamp, and an integrated valve amplifier with phono input). I have now acquired a Parasound - Zphono MM/MC Phono Stage with USB. This is a very decent phono preamp that includes a good analogue to digital converter and have begun the laborious task of digitising some of my favourite albums. I am very pleased with the results, and will now be able to listen to long "lost" albums from my younger days when I go overseas again or on my "Walkman" when I am travelling. I have also "ripped" a few albums that sounded poor when first issued on cd.

I see that Project have now produced a phono preamp that also has a digital optical output. I did consider buying one of these as it would have worked very well with my Nuforce DDA-100 amplifier. This has no analogue inputs at all and only operates in analogue at the speaker terminals. I can see many similar devices emerging as digital audio continues to improve.

Geoff

Interesting to hear your experiences Geoff. 100% agree that there is still a gulf between the vinyl and digital realms but I believe some non-oversampling valve DAC's with clean output paths now give vinyl a run for its money. Eliminating some of the harshness associated with digital music and especially those poorly recorded/mastered CD's you are referring to.

The Jolida DAC referred to above does an okay job (its slightly modified too) but I also have a Musical Paradise MP-D1 (also modified) which is as smooth and warm a DAC s I've ever heard. Has some lovely NOS Western Electric tubes in it also which certainly tame any shrillness.

I'm told that SW1X DAC's are even closer to true analoge sound but haven't actually heard one myself.

EAR 834P - Best phono stage I've had or heard. I swapped the V3 position for a 12au7 as opposed to a 12ax7. Noise floor dropped significantly (albeit slightly affecting the RIAA possibly) but it was deep beyond belief. Should never have let it go . . . .

Thanks,

Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Opti-cal

The turntable in question is a Pro-Ject Essential III Digital, a significant upgrade over the II and a decent offering in its own right regardless of the digital function. It has a decent MM phono stage built in and both the phono stage and digital/optical out can be bypassed to utilise a stand alone phono stage.

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Sounds like an absolutely ripping idea to me !!
Pro-Ject have a an established reputation for good quality gear at an affordable price and their TTs generally get good reviews by critics and users alike so the idea of adding an AD converter to the existing options is a real winner.

I have been digitising my vinyl for yonks and have used a number of gizmos; orginally from the likes of Roland/Edirol and Bheringer and more recently M-Audio and now Focusrite.
The Focusrite mixer I use at the moment has the option of outputting the digital conversion via a Coax SPDIF and I have quite often used that for listening while ripping - the sound is only marginally inferior to the original analogue source and I could quite happily live with it.

Only problem with my way of doing things over the Pro-Ject solution is the additional expense of an AD converter and phono stage - the only downside of their TT that I can see is a loss of flexibility in the choice of these two.
Obviously for obsessed 'box-swappers' this would be a huge deal breaker but if I was in the market for a new TT, I would definitely give the Pro-Ject a go (and have some fun) :rock:

But unless absolutely necessary why would you go from A to D then back again, i understand if it's a recording that's not available on any other format and you need to convert it so that you can put it on your ipod for instance, but for everything else it seems unnecessary and frankly a waste of money

From a purist perspective, certainly. From an experimental perspective I feel its an exercise worth trying.

If I stuck to the rules all the time (audio and otherwise!) my life would not be very exciting. Eyebrows were raised when I partnered my Quads with a cheap chinese SET amplifier but in my circumstance of smallish room with a pitched roof it is a revelation.

I'm also likely to fill my phono stages with rather expensive NOS tubes so when I'm not doing critical listening it'll prolong their lives a bit too!

As mentioned when I want to experience how good it can sound its at the convenience of a flick of a switch.

I can understand its a slightly abstract somewhat counter-intuitive experiment but like I say, I'm a curious guy . . . .

The recording feature is another useful point.

I'm getting the TT for a good deal less than the RRP and only marginally more than the cost of the II version and believe me I've wasted my hard earned on far worse . . .

Cheers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jac Hawk

But unless absolutely necessary why would you go from A to D then back again, i understand if it's a recording that's not available on any other format and you need to convert it so that you can put it on your ipod for instance, but for everything else it seems unnecessary and frankly a waste of money

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In this case the difference in price between the Pro-Ject Essential III Digital and the Pro-Ject Essential III is about £40 - even if you only occasionally rip your vinyl this is already a much cheaper option than a dedicated, reasonably decent AD unit.

That of itself is enough reason (provided the Pro-Ject AD conversion reaches the quality required) but the less obvious advantage is one less box to make desk space for, one less interconnect cable + sockets and one less PSU muddying the waters.

There are more but those two would be enough to convince me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mikmas

Sounds like an absolutely ripping idea to me !!
Pro-Ject have a an established reputation for good quality gear at an affordable price and their TTs generally get good reviews by critics and users alike so the idea of adding an AD converter to the existing options is a real winner.

I have been digitising my vinyl for yonks and have used a number of gizmos; orginally from the likes of Roland/Edirol and Bheringer and more recently M-Audio and now Focusrite.
The Focusrite mixer I use at the moment has the option of outputting the digital conversion via a Coax SPDIF and I have quite often used that for listening while ripping - the sound is only marginally inferior to the original analogue source and I could quite happily live with it.

Only problem with my way of doing things over the Pro-Ject solution is the additional expense of an AD converter and phono stage - the only downside of their TT that I can see is a loss of flexibility in the choice of these two.
Obviously for obsessed 'box-swappers' this would be a huge deal breaker but if I was in the market for a new TT, I would definitely give the Pro-Ject a go (and have some fun) :rock:

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Yes, considered a few others including Debut Carbon, Expression III, various offerings from Edwards Audio and Rega (usual suspects). I have had 2 Edwards Audio tables in the past and was seriously impressed by them but fancied trying something a bit different.

Had a Pro-Ject 2.9 Wood with an AT150MLX cart and a few mods (acrylic platter etc) which was a lovely sound so hopefully this will be similar.

I also like having the output box so I can have matching cables from tonearm/output box to amp (very sad I know and yes I do know its only as good as the wire from the pins on the cart) but its going to look cool with all Chord Chameleons snaking their way through . . .

Cheers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mikmas

Sounds like an absolutely ripping idea to me !!
Pro-Ject have a an established reputation for good quality gear at an affordable price and their TTs generally get good reviews by critics and users alike so the idea of adding an AD converter to the existing options is a real winner.

I have been digitising my vinyl for yonks and have used a number of gizmos; orginally from the likes of Roland/Edirol and Bheringer and more recently M-Audio and now Focusrite.
The Focusrite mixer I use at the moment has the option of outputting the digital conversion via a Coax SPDIF and I have quite often used that for listening while ripping - the sound is only marginally inferior to the original analogue source and I could quite happily live with it.

Only problem with my way of doing things over the Pro-Ject solution is the additional expense of an AD converter and phono stage - the only downside of their TT that I can see is a loss of flexibility in the choice of these two.
Obviously for obsessed 'box-swappers' this would be a huge deal breaker but if I was in the market for a new TT, I would definitely give the Pro-Ject a go (and have some fun) :rock:

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One of the neat features of my Parasound Phono Preamp is the option to switch off the internal RIAA processing and to post-equalise using software. It is fascinating to hear what the unprocessed signal from a vinyl disc sounds like!

Geoff

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sherwood

One of the neat features of my Parasound Phono Preamp is the option to switch off the internal RIAA processing and to post-equalise using software. It is fascinating to hear what the unprocessed signal from a vinyl disc sounds like!

Geoff

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Lovely feature for the purists and enthusiasts there Geoff. Did not know you could actually do that. Great stuff.

Could you describe the difference at all (in as few or many words as you care to!)?

Cheers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Opti-cal

Lovely feature for the purists and enthusiasts there Geoff. Did not know you could actually do that. Great stuff.

Could you describe the difference at all (in as few or many words as you care to!)?

Cheers

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This short video, despite the crap music and hifi, gives a good sense of how the audio signal is manipulated to increase playback time. Without reverse "fiddling" it sounds awful!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hNq1rl_QVo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sherwood

One of the neat features of my Parasound Phono Preamp is the option to switch off the internal RIAA processing and to post-equalise using software.
Geoff

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Cool ... I have done that using my mixer but it was a bit more laborious (re-routing interconnects)
RIAA eq was done via Audacity which has this as a built in feature - there are even downloadable curves for other vinyl/shellac platters here
Only problem I found was a significant decrease in the volume of the signal .... but it was fun trying ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Opti-cal

Interesting to hear your experiences Geoff. 100% agree that there is still a gulf between the vinyl and digital realms but I believe some non-oversampling valve DAC's with clean output paths now give vinyl a run for its money. Eliminating some of the harshness associated with digital music and especially those poorly recorded/mastered CD's you are referring to.

The Jolida DAC referred to above does an okay job (its slightly modified too) but I also have a Musical Paradise MP-D1 (also modified) which is as smooth and warm a DAC s I've ever heard. Has some lovely NOS Western Electric tubes in it also which certainly tame any shrillness.

I'm told that SW1X DAC's are even closer to true analoge sound but haven't actually heard one myself.



EAR 834P - Best phono stage I've had or heard. I swapped the V3 position for a 12au7 as opposed to a 12ax7. Noise floor dropped significantly (albeit slightly affecting the RIAA possibly) but it was deep beyond belief. Should never have let it go . . . .

Thanks,

Chris

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I now have a streaming system that stands up well to a good vinyl system in terms of SQ. The ability to travel with my entire digital library is a bonus.

I agree that the EAR834P is a good phono preamp although I think its MC input fell somewhat short of the MM input. For that reason I used it with an Audio Technica AT630 step up transformer. I got a good price for it, given that it was in excellent condition.

Geoff

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RothwellAudio

Why not just plug it in and try it?

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Doesn't arrive until today (hopefully). I was just wondering what I could expect!

Will certainly plug it straight in and document my thoughts when I can.