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So... As much as I'd love a Mike New bearing, I don't think I can justify the cost any time soon. Does anyone have the knowledge and experience to tell me honestly whether there's much advantage in fitting the Mike New over the Timestep bearing? I'd love to know that I've got that beautiful brass piece of engineering beneath the platter, but I can live without it if there's no performance improvement over the cheaper Timestep model.
Please try to be subjective. ;)
Dave Cawley's you're man for that, as he's probably the only one with experience of both bearings.
There is a thread here which discusses it IIRC. The Timestep bearing looks to be a re-enforced standard one and I understand it fits in between the standard and Mike New in terms of available performance.
Are you planning on getting the new platter? if so, the New bearing is the way to go. if you have a shabby but good working deck, or don't intend to spend on the platter, then I'd probably suggest either leaving as standard, or the Timestep one.
TBH, the SL1200 series looks to becoming a cash-cow for certain parties. I agree the performance gains are worthwhile, but at what total cost?
'Scuse the cynicism.
Dave is right - there is a thread about it.
I got so far through it then came across this post http://theartofsound.net/forum/showp...1&postcount=30 which probably answers the OP's question.
:exactly:Quote:
Originally Posted by DSJR
I have the Timestep Bearing ' and i would say it improves the performance of the 1210 quite dramatically' in fact i am so happy with the performance ' i have no plans to get the Mike New bearing or forthcoming platter .
Very soon i will be fitting an SME 309 to my 1210 and that's going to be it ' after that its basically look at different cartridges and other things like Mark grant cables and so on .
Then for me a long held desire to get a Valve amp back into my system ' and yesterday i listened to Guy Sargeant's 2A3 integrated amp ' :) i want one .
I say go for the Timestep Bearing ' if you have the Outboard psu (Timestep)
these two together with a quality arm and mat ' i think you would be delighted :) .
Thanks. Can't believe I missed that. :doh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stratmangler
TBH, the SL1200 series looks to becoming a cash-cow for certain parties
OK, I'll stop all development and discounts to AOS members. What an insult from a fellow member!!
Dave
Dave, hang on... Dave DSJR is entitled to his opinion. I don't particularly agree with it, but you're not doing yourself any favours mate by reacting like this :)
I know you're passionate about getting the most from the SL-1200 and this is what drives you to pursue futher modifications, so chill man, and take Dave's remarks on the chin :cool:
Marco.
Sorry Marco, I don't take outright rudeness from any forum.
Dave
I think Dave's (DSJR) comment was unnecessary ' the upgrades are well thought out and so far ' speaking for myself excellent value and very worthwhile , compared to what Linn charge , i would hardly call it a cash cow ?
I don't take outright rudeness from any forum.
l am going to be doing the upgrades Dave;)
Thanks guys!
Dave
Apologies Dave. It just reminded me of the continuous £500 upgrade "thing" all over again and you know where that led with the old fruitbox..... :)
A quick look at the price of a fully loaded LP-12 and a (so far) fully loaded SL-1200 should reveal which is the cash cow. As to which sounds better is a matter of opinion: mine is that the Techie doesn't lose out to the Linn in any parameter.
I never said it (LP12) did, but a path I, and many of my age group HiFi contemporaries took in the 80's was the £500-each-upgrade path - you know, Rega/R100, LP12/Basik, LP12/Ittok, K9 to Karma/Troika, add a Lingo/Armageddon, next an ARO or Ekos. Go from Nait to Naim pre/power, add a power supply and then upgrade the power amp - most of these in clearly devised steps of approx £500
Apologies again. I just have this ingrained into my psyche after so many years following that path.
hi all,
while reading briefly through the many threads relating to the upgrade path of the 1210, i dont think i have ever seen anything relating to the comparison of a fully modded 1210 and an SP10, anyone [without a vested interest] know how these two realy compare, reason being,,, from what i have read there dosent seem to be much of the original 1210 left after all the mods, so is the final cost worth it or is the SP10 still a better deck? also if its true that there is very little left after all the mods then why dont those who offer all the upgrades for this paticular deck just bring out a deck with all these upgrades implemented under their own name?:scratch:
A...
I have to say that l think the Techie upgrades are pretty reasonable in the hi-fi scheme of things, in that they seem to work and good VFM, all imho of course:sofa:
Since it's unlikely that the SP10 will ever be resurrected, hows about designing a new SP10 style base and plinth (or all in one) which will allow any arm to be fitted, coupled with the decent bearing and power supply, but using the basic motor/drive and controls of the techie 1200. Made over here it may well cost the earth (perhaps why I kicked off so as UK labour charges are high and "we" are poor, relatively speaking), but it may be possible to out-source for a better price?
Well out of my league, but some of you could afford to do this if the performance was better.
Ok. Let's call it the Technics SL-1200. Oh, err....Quote:
Originally Posted by DSJR
hi all,
i guess what i am realy saying is,,, the people who come up with all the mods for this deck,,, why dont they just bite the bullet, put their neck on the line so to speak and bring out their own version of this iconic direct drive turntable, because from where i see it the only thing they seem to rate on this deck is the motor [or is it that thats the only part they cannot replicate] because lets face it thats basicaly all thats left of the original design at the end of the day!
never before have i seen such an original piece of equipment so severely modified that it bears little to no resemblence to its original design.
A...
Very well put Anthony, one I completely agree with, a couple of years ago I totally reworked an Esoteric D-03, when finished it sounded most agreeable, then when you realised you changed/added, over 200 pieces, it was time to seriously design your and incorperate all those upgrades, shorten circuit pathways, greatly improve power supply lines, use lower voltage componets, spent more time with RFI issues, correct shielding, and out stage selection.
At the end of it, you have piece which gives great pleasure and pride of ownership.
My observations of some comments here would be that:
a) I suspect that 'money-pit' rather than 'cash-cow' might have been a slightly more turn of phrase. Relative to Dave's other business, I suspect that the pain-in-the-arse to income ratio of some, if not all of the Techie developments isn't all that great.
b) Yes it's possible that equivalent performance (though some might just say different) can be bought elsewhere for similar money, but to my knowledge, it's not easily done in such bite-size chunks and with a deck that's as unfussy and unobtrusive.
As for being modified so far from it's original design, surely much the same could be said of Linn. How much would actually be left from an original LP12 which was fully modded?
I thought us diyers and fiddlers was bad:lol: Totally agree with what your saying though Anthony.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyTD
If i may comment as a new member , i got a technics because i couldnt afford a michele gyro or top of the range Linn or whatever. My only option was to buy a Project deck and be grateful or get a techy and have fun improving piecemeal style as i could afford it.
If panasonic were bothered about the hi fi market they would have upgraded the platter ,arm and bearing but it wouldnt have been worth it , tooling expenses etc, as there market was djs who wanted a workhorse.
I imagine those who have taken the time to do those modifications are not going to retire rich on their sales from such a niche market . I rather think as ex engineers it has been an interesting project to embark on and i hope they continue to transform a deck that needed transforming 30 years ago
hi all,
lets get one thing clear here, no one is saying that modifying an already good piece of kit for the better is a bad thing, quite the opposite, but thats just it, we modify equipment because we find merit in its original design, and we concentrate on rectifying its weak points in an effort to make an already good piece of kit even better, [if we agree so far everyone say aye :eyebrows:] my point is, if there are all these mods available for this paticular product, what was it that was so good about it in the first place!
A...
If im honest , i like the deck for nostalgic reasons. That design is iconic to me.
But the thing thats special about the engineering is the fact its one of the few quartz lock direct drives the japanese did that actually worked properly. Despite my advancing years i still like to listen to a bit of electronic beat stuff, and nothing ive heard does that precision timing like the 1200. I havnt owned a cd player that times as well as a technics.
...altogether now, the motor!
now we are getting somewhere!Quote:
Originally Posted by colinB
A...
It's a cost effective entry to a well designed DD motor unit!
The cost to develop & produce DD turntables is huge & I believe thats part of the reason most new TTs that appear are belt-drive.
When you add up the price of all the mods needed to elivate the 1200 to the very high standard that it can achieve you could buy a good condition SP10 which IMO is still a better TT!
The Japanese developed alot of very nice DD TTs that were & still are world class, but all have been out of production for some years & command high prices on the 2nd hand market & then there's no telling what history or problems they may have! Brand new 1200 can still be picked up for relative money then upgraded as & when! But to develop a new DD TT would be very expensive I would think.
There's some stunning alternatives to the now Reference SP10 but the outlay will be High, Denon DP100M, Denon DP-75 M, Exclusive P3a, Sony PS-X9, Kenwood L-07D even my DP-6000 ;). Now, if someone could make a modern DD today to better these decks that would be great but I think R&D would just cost to much. Building on the 1200 motor unit is though attainable today!
LOL just rambling on
Cheers, alfie
Hi Anthony,Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyTD
See my reply to Shaun on the other thread - 'Turntables: Setting Your Bias'. This should explain things very clearly :)
Marco.
P.S The filter is bloody fantastic, mate - I am absolutely delighted with it!
Cheers :cool:
I have to say this cos this is what i see. This 1210 thing is turning into what the LP12' did.
hi marco,Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
i have read the other thread and can see both points.
my reasons for asking the original questions in this thread was not as some may see as to question this turntables true ability and integrity but out of interest as to other peoples take on the merits of owning a piece of kit that seemingly needs so many mods to make it perform properly that it begs the question,,,why....;)
A...
PS, glad to hear the filter is doing what it was designed to do in your system!:)
Yup, mate, I totally get what you're saying....
Basically, just see it as a top-notch motor mechanism, not as a 'ready to go' high-end turntable. When I bought my SL-1210, I never bought it as a completed solution; it was bought merely as the basis for a long-term project to make into something rather special to play my records on :)
Marco.
While I'm awaiting delivery of a modified Technics, and don't have a direct experience with one as such, the thing that attracted me to the Technics is that it represents a way to get a solid performer for relatively little money. I've heard the 'table stock, and it sounded quite "acceptable" - not a world beater by any means. People whose opinion I respect indicated that with appropriate modification, the Technics was an excellent table, with mods that can be added as desired, with less overall cost for many new grinders.
One friend of mine has an LP12, with many and costly upgrades; another has a VPI Scoutmaster, to which he has added several of VPI's upgrades (not as costly as Linn's); the cost to fully trick out a new Technics 1200 or 1210 is generally less than either of those fine tables prior to those upgrades. The Linn, while I appreciate its little colorations, finding them pleasing to the ear generally, is rather a pain to maintain; the VPI much less so, but still requiring a bit of fiddling.
Another thing to consider is that there are plenty of people like me who are either a) coming back to vinyl, or b) are getting into vinyl for the first time. Those people who never listened to LPs have digital stability and ease of use as their benchmarks for listening. A direct-drive turntable offers relative ease of use, with sounds arising from a stable sonic platform. The Tech doesn't require huge amounts of time and energy to perform well; if you're interested in using a Concorde-style cart, another potential hassle is removed from the equation.
I think I can answer anthony's question better than anyone else so far... Why take on a bit of kit that need to be modded to within an inch of it life to sound at it's best??
My answer - Because it's fun!
And to reiterate what I was saying in the other thread about dave and his aparent enjoyment of this project ... I think if pushed that might well be not far from his answer too! Dave has the desire to make lots of bits for this turn table to the point of it being barely even recognisable, he along with mike new also have the technical know how ... So why the hell not I say!
There is a grain of truth in what your saying Andre ' but .Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre
There is an orderly queue of folks wanting to put the LP12 down generally by those that don't own or use one , and its the same with the modded SL1200 :rolleyes:.
Yeah Baby! We're like the Max Power world of audio! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by hamish
INNIT MAN, YEAH!! :lol::eek::ner::doh:Quote:
Originally Posted by twelvebears
Has anyone actually done before and after comparisons measuring the various speed control modification options from all the different manufacturers?
All we need to see is an FM demodulation of a test tone recording. It's nice reading all the waffle and cod psychology in the marketing spiel but speed stability is the easiest thing to measure on a deck, why don't any of them provide the comparison before and after data?
All we need to see is an FM demodulation of a test tone recording
It's called a wow and flutter meter. But your first two posts are arguably confrontational, at a very odd time too?
I'm not sure why you are talking about speed stability, but I'll give you the benefit of doubt. So perhaps you can give us your take and experience on speed stability?
Dave
SimonQuote:
Originally Posted by sq225917
There are other forums where your style of posting and objectavist views are more comfortably accommodated than here on AOS. Art of Sound is an ears first forum (not saying measurements don't have there place by the way) so your aggressive tone is not welcome here.
Your second post on AOS is designed to wind people up and nothing more imho. In saying that though what you propose has merit, just not the way you propose it.
Regards D S D L
Edit now heading for three posts and no post in Hello and Welcome. I fear Simon is here to troll and thus is heading for extermination.
It does seem that some people like to offer windups with every post, but it would be interesting to see how "others" have dealt with fine-tuning the techie motor supply. At least Dave C has published figures and screen-shots of the results of his efforts and they (the results) do seem very good to be fair. The very close tolerance Mike new bearing probably helps too, and I daresay there would be figures for that as well to back up the audible improvements it gives.
All the speed regulation is performed in the Technics main circuit board so how are you going to differentiate between external PSUs by just reading speed regulation on a meter? The external power supply needs several characteristics to be successful and regulated voltage is just one of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by sq225917