I haven't heard any Naim hifi myself but have saw alot of good reviews about them but I don't always trust magazine reviews as I suspect there's money going under the table for exposure, so is Naim any good?
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I haven't heard any Naim hifi myself but have saw alot of good reviews about them but I don't always trust magazine reviews as I suspect there's money going under the table for exposure, so is Naim any good?
Why do you suspect that? Is it not possible that they're actually quite good?Quote:
Originally Posted by James the Albarry lover
Ive bought hifi on reviews alone before and have been very disappointed with some and happy with others, it was more of a throw away comment and not suppose to be aimed at any particular magazine. Giving the large following Naim has I'm pretty sure alot of people love them and some people might tell me otherwiseQuote:
Originally Posted by Beobloke
I think Naim hifi is very well engineered and there is nothing wrong with it per se, it’s just whether you like how it sounds. Last time I heard any Naim gear it was probably around 9 years ago. I wasn’t a fan at that time but it can be hard to tell for sure unless you listen to the music you know and like. I don’t like the plinky plonk audiophile music some dealers play and it affects my judgement on a system.
I'm very happy with my Supernait 2.
Way way back when I had a Naim pre/power combo with separate PSU and I didn't keep it very long. I found that it just didn't match up to the hype which back then was enormous. I replaced it at the time with a huge output Jap thing made by Trio that was much better suited to my ears. I also ended up with some cash in pocket.
Maybe I should add though that it was extremely well made and the MC phono boards were fantastic. The sound just wasn't for me.
Wow, a couple of years back this would have been an incendiary thread on the 'Wam! Now two hours in and no abuse, fantastic :)
To the OP I actually hated the old' olive' era Naim sound, never could get what was good about it, it made music sound small, shouty, and congested to me, and the upgrade paths had a strong whiff of marketeering about them. Now I read that their new products are far more neutrally voiced and rather engaging, possibly even to my tastes? I haven't heard them though so best taken for what it is, hearsay. Definitely well made stuff though.
Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
They are well built, reliable, but definitely have a 'house sound' which you may or may not like. I wouldn't describe them as neutral.
It's a bit pricey for what your getting. Especially the add-on power supplies which are verging on a total rip-off. I liked the original Nait integrated, that had some charm to its sound and looked good, as did the range that came after. The stuff with the light up logos is a bit meh in looks and sound though. And scarily expensive.
Naim stuff today does sound different from the older chrome bumper and olive stuff. Both still have great rhythm and timng though, but the older stuff is less neutral and perhaps more "committed". I like both but prefer the older stuff myself.
Naim tends to polarise people because it does some things exceedingly well. If you value its strengths, you will likely be hooked. If not, you'll probably wonder why others love it so much.
I'm not sure where anyone would get the idea of "money under the table " with Exposure gear though. It tends to be the older John Farlowe era kit that is so highly praised. Nothing to gain by hyping that, as the new stuff is completely different and only really shares the brand name.
Yeah I was expecting some angry comments, how dare you speak ill of Naim! Stuff like that lol they look the part in a no nonsense kind of way, I was planning on going for an active Naim pre amp for my AlbarrysQuote:
Originally Posted by Jazid
My experience of the newer Naim stuff is limited (ok, non-existent) so I can only comment on the older stuff from Julian Vereker's time. I don't think it's particularly well-engineered at all and sounds dreadful to me. It's hard, abrasive and two dimensional. I once heard a sound at a show that was so bad it was comical - and the amps were Naim.
However, I'm told the newer is quite different.
Based on the older units I've heard I wouldn't touch it with a dead man's todger!
Latest Naim sounds nothing like the older Naim. It is now more rounder and warmer, some say it is now lacking excitement and attack.
It is good gear but now is far from being the value for money it once was. There is better for far less money.
Yes I agree the pricing is shocking for what you getQuote:
Originally Posted by hifi_dave
Yes, its good. Very good. The new Unit range are excellent at what they do.
However,It's not to my taste, I had Naim for many years & have now gone a different route. I didn't like the never-ending "just add another box" upgrade path.
Is there better VFM elsewhere? Yea, probably.
It's a good strong brand, with some excellent engineering & highly dedicated personnel.
You have to listen to it to work out whether its right for you though.
Just my opinion.
Way back when I first got into "proper" hi fi, I moved from a Creek amp to a Naim pre & power & PSU, can't remember the model numbers but I have to say I rather liked it & it wasn't long before I upgraded to the next model up. In fact I did that twice, until I went to a hifi show at a posh hotel in Buxton of all places. I sat in on a demo which had what seemed a whole wall of Naim kit, & I thought it sounded amazing, even now one of the best sounds I have ever heard in a large room, but then again it should have, the retail on that lot must have been 6 figures. It was then that I totally changed direction, because I didn't want to be forever looking at the next "better" amp on the upgrade path. I traded it all in for a Michell Orbe/SME IV/Ortofon Rohmann, Unison Simply 4 valve amp with Simply Phono phono stage & Audio Physic speakers, & I was in love, totally seduced by the glowing tubes, in fact I have never had SS amplification in all the time since.
I do often wonder though why my system sounds so harsh with certain genres! The thing is one Naim user will listen to music where Naims faults or signature sound may not show up so much, personally I listen to a lot of music which was made to sound harsh and raucous, so an amp which carries this sonic signature is I guess too much. All the criticisms made by others here ring true! I've also just upgraded to a more revealing, solid TT, so it really is time to try something else. Having had not much experience with other amps I find it hard to say what makes Naim different, I do remember having an Arcam Alpha 7 which I found lacked punch. The marketing / upgrade side is also a bit nauseating. What I do like is its slightly chamber sound, which seems to accentuate rhythm, which works with some music but not others! I currently use 'olive' half width amps, though with after market boards, plus the power amp has been altered by Avondale, like many Naim users, our systems aren't really Naim!
My little Onix OA21 beat the pants off my old, much more expensive Naim 102 pre 180 power.
Compared to other gear, Naim is overpriced. It also has an insidious upgrade system where some very expensive gear is only really competitive when more power supply boxes are added, at huge cost. It does hold its value well, and there do seem to be some Naim classics out there that are well worth consideration, like a well-sorted pair of NAP135s or even some bolt-down gear.
I've always preferred Exposure gear though, in comparison Naim seems to have this 'high contrast', less neutral house sound.
I must admit, I find the whole ‘cult of Naim’ thing is a bit tiresome, so for anyone who’s interested, I ‘ll relate my Naim story and I can disappoint you now by admitting that it contains no envelopes full of twenties, no trips abroad and no badgering or indoctrination!
I started going to hi-fi shows when I was 13 with my father and I remember Naim from those early days. I think the first setup I heard was a full Linn/Naim six pack system which I recall as being quite impressive, and so I generally found myself wandering into Naim demos from then on. Some were very good; some less so - for example the first time I heard the DBLs at the Bristol Show, I thought they had lovely midrange but I genuinely thought they’d forgotten to connect the bass driver and tweeter. The next time I heard them, they went straight into my all-time favourite loudspeaker top ten and are still there. However, ignoring the audio politics aspect, I never could quite understand why Naim inspired such strongly polarised opinions from most quarters.
Anyway, fast forward to 2006 and I found myself working for Hi-Fi World magazine. When I joined, there was a huge backlog of review gear and amongst it was the Naim NAC122XS/NAP150XS/Flatcap XS and this unfortunately kept getting side-lined, at least until the day a funny pair of speakers came in. The reviewer had reviewed them and given them a glowing report. They measured well but did present a difficult load to the amplifier. However, on having a second opinion listen in the World listening room (something which Noel, David or I always did) they sounded flat and lifeless. We tried them with various valve amplifiers in the system at the time, plus a couple of transistor designs that we had kicking around with no change. We were almost on the verge of ringing the reviewer to query his findings, when Noel said to me “Give them one last go through the Naim”. I duly dug out the amps, fired them up and suddenly there were the dynamics and the soundstaging that the reviewer had praised! The speakers genuinely sounded totally different and this became the start of a long period where any slightly awkward loudspeakers that passed through our hands always went on the Naim. Yes, there were other amps that subsequently turned out to be as capable, but none were quite as consistent as that setup.
Move on a little while and, just before Christmas 2007, I found myself without music as my beloved Quantum Electronics amplifiers had thrown a wobbly and were not well. The Naim Supernait had just been reviewed by David Price and it was sitting in the office, boxed and ready to go back to Naim in the New Year. I remember being incredibly impressed by it, so I borrowed it for the Christmas holidays so I wouldn’t be without music. To cut a long story short, it never went back – I wrote Naim a cheque for it instead! Whilst I have other amplifiers, and I’m sure many others will continue to come and go, the Supernait is a keeper – it’s reliable, sturdy, will drive pretty much anything, sounds superb and has all the features I require.
And finally, there is one other important area that I would like to offer a few thoughts on, namely the power supply upgrades that you “have to buy”. It may actually astonish everyone to know that, actually, no – you don’t have to buy them. There is no team of Naim ‘heavies’ that will come round to your house and force you, nor will your amp stop working if you don’t add a Hi-Cap to it within six months! My experience of the PSU upgrades suggests that they always make a difference, but it’s not always one I have liked. Personally, I think the Supernait sounds better without a Hi-Cap and the 122XS/150XS sounded different with the Flatcap XS but I’d be hard pushed to say which version I actually preferred. On the other hand, I found that same Flatcap XS to really add a new dimension to the performance of the CD5XS CD player.
So there you are – as far as I’m concerned, Naim are just like any other manufacturer of high quality equipment. I like a lot of their gear, even though there are one or two bits that haven’t floated my boat. I admit that I also like the fact that it’s made in England, about 30 miles from me. Most importantly, I like the sound it makes. Of course, you may not like it and that’s fine, too – no one is forcing anyone else to buy it. But the common method of painting it as some sort of insidious cult is, frankly, bizarre.
Good Post!!
Yes, nice post Adam. I too find the whole cult thing a bit of a pain as well. And I have never understood why folks get their knickers in a big twist over the whole upgrade thing either. No one is forcing them to do so, it is there if one feels like it is worthwhile. With that being said, yes, pricing is eye watering, especially on this side of the pond. That being said, I have yet to find anything for me that I would trade my Uniti for, it just works and sounds good enough for me.
There used to be a tiny circulation underground magazine called Common Ground which Les Wolstenholme of Avondale Audio used to write in. I learned a lot from this articles and realised what serious engineering short-comings Naim amps had. That's why I'm baffled to hear people say Naim amps are well-engineered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeandvan
"Insidious" might be going too far but browsing forums gives the distinct impression that a cult has grown up around Naim with their advocates believing that Naim's designs possess some engineering genius that eludes the rest of the world's manufacturers. Personally, I'm not convinced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beobloke
You do see quite a bit of that. But not just with Naim. Everyone is a fanboy for something I suppose.Quote:
Originally Posted by RothwellAudio
Yeah, that is exactly how I would have described my 42/110/snaps combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by RothwellAudio
One of my favourite Naim combos :) . Problems only arise when people believe their "truth" has to be shared by everyone else. The Flat Earth kinda took that road and a little of that history still lives on. I learned long ago that there are many ways to getting a sound you're happy with and I've never felt the need for others to agree with my choices (or me theirs).Quote:
Originally Posted by Haselsh1
My sentiments exactly!Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby
Having owned quite a few bits of Naim kit over the years (28 to be exact), these are my thoughts:
1. Like all manufacturers, there some good ones, some excellent ones and some average/mediocre ones
2. The upgrade path is often very, very expensive for relatively small benefit. I think you have to jump at least two steps up to hear any real improvement and even then, since our ears are all different and hifi is (IMO) very subjective, the "improvement" might only be a "difference" which is neither better or worse, but just different
3. I serviced all my kit when they reached 10 years of age and to be honest, I did not hear any day and night difference like many Naim fans claim they hear but I did notice that my bank balance had gone down significantly so I guess in that sense, yes, there was a big difference before and after
4. Trying non-Naim accessories like interconnects or speaker cables did not cause a small nuclear meltdown but they did sound, to my ears, better in some cases to Naim cables.
5. I'm not convinced that the lower end PSUs actually make any difference and for the cost, you could buy quite a lot of very nice vinyl for your music collection
6. Different Naim combos sound "best" to different people so everyone can live peacefully side by side, or at least they should, rather than trying to ram down other people's throats what they should be thinking is the "best" combo. Come on, hifi is subjective isn't it?
Has anyone got any of the "not so good" ones I can have for free?
Many thanks in advance ;)
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by vintage60
Ain't that the truth, bro (especially the bits in bold)! It never ceases to amaze me how so many folk need their choices 'validated'/approved by others before they're happy, rather than having the confidence and gumption to trust their OWN EARS, and stand by their choices regardless :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby
Or get pissed off if the gear that they're using isn't as loved [eulogised and discussed on forums] by others as much as they feel it deserves! :doh:
Anyway, yes it was a good post from Adam, the sentiments behind which I entirely agree with. Naim, or Linn, for that matter, are not the 'big bad wolves' some folk think they are. I'll relate some of my own personal experiences later, as a previous (and happy) Naim owner for some six years, and of the company itself when Paul Stephenson was at the helm.
Marco.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Absolutely. To both points.
I rather enjoy the opposite. Using gear that I know is good, but few others if any are familiar with. Approbation is not something I want!
Me neither. Like you, I go out of my way to own equipment that no-one else is likely to have, certainly modified the way mine has been. I've never been a sheep or one for following 'trends', much preferring instead to plough my own furrow. I'm a leader, not a follower ;)
And as for 'caring' what others think of the gear I use, I care more about the contents of my last dump, than what some 'faceless Internet entity' thinks of my hi-fi (or me)!! :D
Marco.
Me too....................Hang on. There can't be two of us here! :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
There are 3 people in this world those that can count and those that can’t !!
And those three are a fine pair if ever I saw one. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael loves music
Pretty much my thoughts exactly. It's a long time since I've gone out of my way to listen to Naim stuff as I thought it sounded awful back in the day when it was touted as being the bee's knees.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazid
I've heard that it's much easier on the ears these days, but the odd dip into the Naim forums does make me wonder if I've wandered into a parallel universe.
Naim is generally decent gear that holds its value well. It was never the panacea it was made out to be, and this is where some of the resentment towards the brand has risen. Unreasonably promoted and now unfairly maligned would be my take.
lol GeoffQuote:
Originally Posted by walpurgis
That's brilliant and well put:rfl:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Strictly speaking, no, I'd argue that it isn't - high fidelity is all about getting as close as possible to the truth. Surely there's only one truth?Quote:
Originally Posted by vintage60
Having said that, if the truth lies at the top of a mountain and two audiophiles are climbing that mountain with the aim of getting to the top, one might be climbing the north face and one climbing the south face. They might be equally high and therefore equally close to the top but still get a very different view from their respective points on the journey.
Or I could be talking bollox :lol:
There are various 'Holy' persuasions that might differ on that! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by RothwellAudio
I contend that there is only one truth, but also that there is a limit to the usefulness of metaphors.
James I have tried to 'get' the Naim sound for more than 20 years. Over that time I've had quite a few Naim amps for home demo but just couldn't get on with the sound at all and wondered what all the fuss was aboutQuote:
Originally Posted by James the Albarry lover
However, as I reported a few months ago, I thought I'd have one last go to see if I could now appreciate the Naim sound and to my surprise this time it was a revelation and absolutely loved the sound
I now have both the XS2 and Supernait 2 amps, don't ask ;), and I now totally 'get' the Naim sound. I have also got a Naim CD5XS and a Naim Dac... that's how much I like Naim now
I have no idea why it took me so long but it might be that in the past I only tried their entry level amps and this time I moved up the range a bit. It might also be that over all that time Naim has changed it's signature sound somewhat, I have no idea
If you told me I would have a complete Naim setup some years ago I would never have believed it
The other surprise is that Naim gear really does like Naim cables so I am now using NACA5 speaker cable and the standard 5 pin din cable between Dac and amp. The only cable that isn't Naim is the Black Cat BNC cable between Cd and Dac
If you asked me to describe my Naim sound I think the best I could do is to say that it is an incredibly musical sound and always 'foot tapping' and so much fun to listen to
In the past I would have described the Naim sound as a bit harsh but the XS2 and Supernait 2 are nothing like that at all, actually quite a smoothy sound to be honest
I also love the build quality of my 4 Naim's, very solid and a joy to use especially the cd player with it's swing out drawer
So now I definitely wouldn't say Naim is overrated and would go as far to say that I think it represents pretty good value for money especially on the used market which is how I got mine. However Naim holds it's value pretty well on the used market and apparently the Naim service department is very good and can still service Naim's going back quite a few years
Do I miss my valve setup ? actually no I don't
Just my thoughts :)
If I decide in the future to go back to valves for some reason I know there is a ready market for my Naim gear and should sell easily
My experience was back around 1979 and although there was nothing wrong with the 42/110/snaps combo I had it really didn't suit my ears or the rest of my system at that time. I was then using IMF Super Compact loudspeakers which I loved but the Naim was just too brash for me. Twenty years later I discovered valves and realised where I had been going wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby
Nice metaphor - I think Jerry (jandl100) would understand and agree!Quote:
Originally Posted by RothwellAudio