Hiface 24/192k USB to spdif converter

I've been playing about with one of the Musiland USD 24/192k USB to spdif converters as a cheap way of proving high res spdif to my dacs , anyway I was kindly offered a Hiface to try and compare against the Musiland, these units looked quite promising but seemed hard to get hold of until now, as can be seen in the trade section Purite Audio now stock these in the UK which is great news.
They are available with either BNC or RCA output, more details can be found on their website

Heres a pic of the Musiland USD, Hiface and a standard USB mem stick to give an idea of the size

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...busoms/020.jpg

The Hiface has been powered up since it arrived (16/12/09) so I've been giving it time to run in.
Installing the drivers was straightforward, these came on a mini cd and also available on their website http://www.m2tech.biz/download.html
I currently have it installed on a 32bit Vista OS, next I will try it on 64bit windows7.
The software used is Foobar2000, Hiface KS was recognized in the output options so it was selected

This is just first impressions today

First I compared the Musiland against the Hiface using 16/44.1 material , dacs used was my diy Sabre, an Audial AYAII and the Beresford Caiman.
I have to be honest the Hiface trounced the Musiland to my ears using all three dacs, Musiland has a sharpness around the edges with an added grain in the highs which is noticeable after directly comparing it against the Hiface, the Hiface gives a detailed and wide soundstage having more finesse than the Musiland , the highs are cleaner, cymbals lack the slight splash of the Musiland

I then tried 96k , obviously the higher res ones was mainly used with the newer dac chips used in the Caiman and my diy Sabre, the sound now was a little bigger, more detailed , some added air in the highs and around instruments. funny thing is I found a few 96k tracks to sound sort of fake using both Hiface and Musiland , piano's mainly lacked realism although some recordings did sound very good

I then tried HRX 24/176.4 into the Sabre as this is the only dac I have which can accept higher than 96k , I found these recordings extremely good, with the Hiface sounding the most realistic so far , piano was by far the least electronic sounding, the Musiland also sounded good but still had the slight issue in the highs compared to the Hiface, the Hiface also had more depth, the Musiland sounded slightly flat and lacked some of the realism

Next was 24/192k, I found this similar to 96k,a lot of dynamics, the recordings varied, some sounded very good and a few sounded slightly processed, again the Hiface (IMO) was better

Its nice to see USB has improved lately enabling people a chance to taste the Hi res formats on the cheap, even the standard 16/44.1 formats sound very good using the Hiface feeding three different dacs, the Musiland USD is very cheap but I could only recommend it to the diyers as it needs work to improve the performance , with very simple cheap mods the Musiland can be improved but I feel its still not as good as the Hiface regarding performance.
I'd like to compare them again after I've fully modded the Musiland with better regs and an external psu, this will obviously boost the price up

A quick note to say I'd advise care if plugging the Hiface direct into the USB socket , if a heavy stiff spdif lead is used this could put stress on the Hiface USB plug with the weight causing damage and possible fractures on the plug/socket joints, also if anybody caught the lead it could cause damage, I'd add some form of cable clamp on the pc case to hold the cable in place taking pressure off the USB plug and socket, easier still is to use a short USB extension lead
In most cases it should be fine but just incase;)

I have a Hiface on loan from Purite as well. I am using it on Macbook with aiff files via iTunes into my Chevron Audio Dac. Its early days yet but things are looking promising, I will do some comparisons with the std usb and digi outs over the Xmas break.
I will also try it on my Widows notebook when time allows.

I've often wondered about having something like this for dedicated SPDIF out. I've long held a suspicion with the Mac that the mini TOSLINK connector isn't an ideal connection, especially if you're using a good quality optical cable but having to use a standard to mini TOSLINK adapter. I imagine that these adapters are using plastic rather than glass fibre and thus negating some of the good work that a good quality optical cable is doing.

I'd really like to get hold of one of these for a try.

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Originally Posted by lovejoy

I've often wondered about having something like this for dedicated SPDIF out. I've long held a suspicion with the Mac that the mini TOSLINK connector isn't an ideal connection, especially if you're using a good quality optical cable but having to use a standard to mini TOSLINK adapter. I imagine that these adapters are using plastic rather than glass fibre and thus negating some of the good work that a good quality optical cable is doing.

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Et tu Brutus? Optical is still superior to USB, and plastic optical cables have been used in Gigahertz network wiring for years.

I think I see what you mean Stan. You're going through the USB interface and then converting to optical - hence the worst of both worlds? So how about one of your lovely optical cables with a 3.5mm connector on one end especially for Macs ;-).

Lovejoy
Drop Keith at Purite Audio an email I am sure he will send you one to try, I don't think you will be disappointed.

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Originally Posted by lovejoy

I think I see what you mean Stan. You're going through the USB interface and then converting to optical

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Nope. In my case I am going from USB chip straight into the receiver IC using the SPDIF protocol. There is no conversion to optical at any stage. It's all plain copper tracks on the PCB.

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Originally Posted by leo

A quick note to say I'd advise care if plugging the Hiface direct into the USB socket , if a heavy stiff spdif lead is used this could put stress on the Hiface USB plug with the weight causing damage and possible fractures on the plug/socket joints, also if anybody caught the lead it could cause damage, I'd add some form of cable clamp on the pc case to hold the cable in place taking pressure off the USB plug and socket, easier still is to use a short USB extension lead
In most cases it should be fine but just incase;)

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Aye i thought so Leo apart from the white plastic finish what you pointed out was one of the main reasons i refrained from buying it!

I would be interested if someone could try the 'hiface' with a Bdac customers are successfully using the with Audio Note, Bryston, Lavry's etc.
Keith.

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Originally Posted by purite audio

I would be interested if someone could try the 'hiface' with a Bdac customers are successfully using the with Audio Note, Bryston, Lavry's etc.
Keith.

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I will, Keith, but I will order one on early January. ;)

Thanks for the heads up roob, and thank you Keith for your kind offer. I'll be sure to give you a thorough review.

Thanks guys, it may not make the slightest improvement, but I would be interested to hear your thoughts, have a great Christmas and a peaceful and prosperous New Year
Keith.

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Originally Posted by Andre

Aye i thought so Leo apart from the white plastic finish what you pointed out was one of the main reasons i refrained from buying it!

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Using a small USB extension lead would sort it out no probs :)

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Originally Posted by purite audio

I would be interested if someone could try the 'hiface' with a Bdac customers are successfully using the with Audio Note, Bryston, Lavry's etc.
Keith.

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Bdac, if you mean the Beresford I can assure it works bob on with it

I've since tried one of the Trends UD-10.1's USB to spdif converters http://www.trendsaudio.com/index.php...d=40&Itemid=28 , obviously could only compare below 96k seeing as though the Trends is limited, the Hiface was superior imo

Guys,
I've modded my HiFace for I2S out & PS replacement. These changes make a significant improvement to it
- supplied clean 5V supply to DIT
- supplied clean 3.3V to clocks
- supplied clean 3.3V to CPLD

Pics & details here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digit...ml#post2035822

I had previously modded my Musiland 01US & will have a chance to compare it to the HiFace over the next week.

Well, I've lived with one of these going into my Beresford for about a week now. I too am running it via a short USB extension cable as I didn't like the thought of it being sat directly onto the USB socket of my Macbook.

All I can say is that I couldn't go back to the optical port on the Macbook now. There is not one single area where the HiFace doesn't sound better, but mostly it's at the extreme ends of the frequency spectrum. Bass control like I've never heard before, and super sweet and natural treble. It's got me going through my entire collection again.

Anyone thinking of spending money on fancy optical or USB cables would be far better off spending it on one of these.

I agree but this is still the best digital front end I have used to date.
http://www.chevronaudio.co.uk/html/untitled24.htm

I agree Rich & the clock PS mod raises the SQ bar significantly to the level of very good (expensive) analogue - so this is the sound of low jitter :)

Yes, Roob, I would love to hear one but can you live with the interface?

jkeny
Yes its a bit of a pain in the arse esp re ripping cds to sd cards as mine are ripped in AIFF on the mac but at the end of the day we go to extreme lengths to get the best sq, its quite easy to navigate through your library with the supplied remote.
As you are probably aware it can be modified further to take i2s output direct to dac although Colin at Chevron hasn't got around to this yet but its in the pipeline.

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Originally Posted by jkeny

I agree Rich & the clock PS mod raises the SQ bar significantly to the level of very good (expensive) analogue - so this is the sound of low jitter :)

Yes, Roob, I would love to hear one but can you live with the interface?

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I had a look at your mods jkeny. Fascinating stuff. They look a little intricate for my unsteady soldering hand unfortunately, so I don't think I'd like to attempt it myself. I was thinking along the lines of some less invasive surgery - taking a USB lead, cutting out the supply from the computer and putting in my own stable 5V. I wasn't sure how you'd go about the wiring though as I imagine that if you completely isolate the HiFace from the power coming from pins 1 and 4 on the USB port, then the computer won't actually see a device there...

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Originally Posted by lovejoy

I had a look at your mods jkeny. Fascinating stuff. They look a little intricate for my unsteady soldering hand unfortunately, so I don't think I'd like to attempt it myself. I was thinking along the lines of some less invasive surgery - taking a USB lead, cutting out the supply from the computer and putting in my own stable 5V. I wasn't sure how you'd go about the wiring though as I imagine that if you completely isolate the HiFace from the power coming from pins 1 and 4 on the USB port, then the computer won't actually see a device there...

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Yes you'll get some benefit from supplying a clean 5V instead of the 5V from USB. It's simple really, I butchered a USB extension cable to do this - disconnect the red 5V wire & put in your clean 5V BUT you MUST leave the black USB ground wire connected & connect your ground to this!

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Originally Posted by jkeny

BUT you MUST leave the black USB ground wire connected & connect your ground to this!

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That'll be where I went wrong then. I disconnected both red and black from the USB and fed in my +5V and 0V clean supply. I'll give it another go. Thanks very much.

!! BE CAREFUL WITH THESE CONNECTIONS - remember wrong connections can ruin your unit!!

Got it working in the end. Thanks for your help.

Tried it with a very simple 7805 regulator from a linear PS. It worked a treat and sounded a little different, but I didn't think it an improvement.

You have me thinking evil thoughts of a nice new case to house the Beresford, the HiFace and separate power supplies all round, but that's for another day, I'm very pleased with how it all sounds for the time being.

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Originally Posted by lovejoy

Got it working in the end. Thanks for your help.

Tried it with a very simple 7805 regulator from a linear PS. It worked a treat and sounded a little different, but I didn't think it an improvement.

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That's not too surprising as 7805 is not a particularly good regulator - try it with batteries to get a flavour of what a better PS will do. You may also have a reasonably good 5V on the USb - what are you running off, laptop, PC?

Remember, also that this 5V then feeds some switching regs in the HiFace & these will limit the improvement you can get from a better 5V

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You have me thinking evil thoughts of a nice new case to house the Beresford, the HiFace and separate power supplies all round, but that's for another day, I'm very pleased with how it all sounds for the time being.

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Ah, you fell into my evil trap :)

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Originally Posted by jkeny

That's not too surprising as 7805 is not a particularly good regulator - try it with batteries to get a flavour of what a better PS will do. You may also have a reasonably good 5V on the USb - what are you running off, laptop, PC?

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I am running from a Macbook Pro, not sure how good the 5V is from the USB, it would be interesting to get a scope on there to see what it's like.

What I might do is knock up another TeddyReg board (I have a few spare) and give that a go to supply 5V. The 7805 was a bit of a proof of concept to see if I could tell any difference, which I could, so I shall pursue it further.

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Remember, also that this 5V then feeds some switching regs in the HiFace & these will limit the improvement you can get from a better 5V

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Understood. I'm very much anti-switching PS in anything audio, so these will have to eventually go ;-).

Update:

TeddyReg board built and supplying a nice stable 5V to the HiFace.

The difference is not small! Soundstage, imaging and depth have just improved so much that the speakers completely disappear. WOW!

I think I can safely say I can live without going in for the invasive surgery.

I have a pile of questions for HiFace users :)

1) Can foobar play CDs inserted into a PC's DVD drive?

2) Can it play them through the HiFace?

3) How does playing a CD compare to playing a file (e.g. WAV, FLAC)?

4) Anyone compared the HiFace to a Transporter (or Squeezebox) yet?

TIA :cheers:

Just put one in to try it, seems to work fine. It took about 3 seconds to read the disc then it was ready. It shouldn't really be any different to using another device with foobar in that respect. Sound quality wise, straight cd seems to work as well as ripped, though this is only after a couple of minutes listening.

Thanks for that. So the basic mechanism works :)

Anyone listened critically?

I'm thinking I could potentially by one of these HiFace doohickeys and sell both my CD player and my Transporter.

Any thoughts?

Chris Hi, I can send you one to try if you like, I would be interested to hear your thoughts, very best,Keith.

Thanks Keith. I may take you up on that.

I was hoping to gather some opinions first before diving in. Generally the feedback on the web is pretty positive for these things but I don't know the credentials of most of those doing the feeding back - they might all be cloth-eared MP3 users - hence why I asked here :)

I guess the only way to really know if this will beat the CD player (and potentially the Transporter too) is to get hold of one and try it for myself.

I've been told that the Modwright modded transporter s the way to go.Not cheap though.

I have just spent a day and a half playing with the hiFace together with foobar2000, winamp and MediaMonkey and the kernel streaming plug-ins. Listening tests were mostly done with foobar. I used the following configurations:

1. Logitech Transporter -> Beresford Caiman

2a. PC WAV files -> hiFace -> Beresford Caiman

2b. Logitech Squeezebox 3 -> Beresford Caiman

3. PC DVD-ROM drive -> hiFace -> Beresford Caiman

4. Myryad MC100 cd player -> Beresford Caiman

The Caiman fed the Croft Syntegra i and thence the Zu Druid MkIV i speakers.

The order shown above was the order of performance.

The Transporter won by being more 3-dimensional, especially in the depth perspective, more sharply focussed, more relaxed and more involving. It had a groove factor that seemed to slightly elude the other combinations. It set the toes tapping and the head nodding where the others did not or did less so. This was obviously dependent on the track but where the groove was subtle, the Transporter reproduced it and the others skipped it to varying degrees. This I usually put down to very low jitter but the very quiet background of the Transporter may also be helping. The difference wasn't obvious on all music though and on many lesser systems would be missed entirely

I'm a little disappointed (but not really surprised) that the hiFace didn't surpass the Transporter. It got closer than a £100 converter has any right to!

When playing WAV files, the hiFace and the Squeezebox were indistinguishable.

CD replay was very interesting. The hiFace definitely outclassed the Myryad by sounding a little more refined but again there really wasn't much in it. When using treated CDs it was hard to identify any difference. The hiFace made a better job of untreated CDs than the Myryad and this suggests to me that there is some useful jitter reduction going on through the hiFace (or maybe the DVD-ROM drive is better than the Myryad as a transport).

Comparing WAV files to CD, both played through the hiFace, similar comments apply. The WAV files came through with a touch more refinement but the gap closed somewhat when using treated CDs.

So, to sum up for the hardware, it is a great device for £100. It does seem to have low jitter and can be considered a viable replacement for a Squeezebox and for a mid-range CD player at least. It doesn't however outperform a Transporter.

I am also pleased to report that there were no clicks, pops or drop-outs throughout the listening sessions.

And so to the software...

I was able to get foobar to scan my WAV library and play a file readily enough but that's where the 'good' ends and the 'bad' begins. The configuration options are I'm sure very powerful but they are also absolutely unintelligible. There was also no way to get foobar to extract useful tags from my folder and file names so manual tagging would be required :(

Winamp fared slightly better by at least looking good and having a useful interface without any need for configuration. Again however, there was no way to get winamp to extract useful tag information from folder and file names so again manual tagging would be necessary :(

MediaMonkey was the best of the three but still not ideal. It at least attempted to interpret the folder and file names. It failed dismally but then redeemed itself by offering a re-tagging function where I was able to specify my folder and file naming convention. It then created and saved the correct WAV tags. Hoorah! (so why isn't it possible to specify the naming convention in the preferences and have it done right first time? :scratch:)

But... would these tags be acceptable to Squeezebox server. No they were not. The latter failed to recognise the track number tag. MediaMonkey has a hidden option (in a .ini file) to write a slightly different track number tag. This revised tag did prove acceptable to Squeezebox server. Hurrah!

But... this new track number tag was now not acceptable to winamp or foobar (or several other players). If I had started with any hair, I would have less of it by now :steam:

WAV tagging is clearly still a hit-and-miss affair. Squeezebox server is probably to blame (there is a bug report outstanding for this very issue).

Both winamp and MediaMonkey produced an unintelligible error message dialog at startup. Annoying :steam: MediaMonkey also seemed to do an inexplicably poor job of displaying album art. Even when displaying a large image, it displayed it at very low resolution even though the source file was at a higher resolution. Weird :scratch: Winamp displayed it better.

I also thought about how I might use a hiFace setup in practice (for the main hifi) and concluded that it would be a royal pain without some kind of remote control. We are really spoilt by Squeezebox server. It is a polished application with a clear and intelligible interface, clear and intelligible settings and the ability to remote control it from any device that has Wifi and a browser or indeed by using the infrared remote that comes with the Squeeze device. Using a wireless mouse and squinting at the TV just isn't the same.

So, to sum up for the software, I guess I'm not the target audience for any of these applications but I was still hugely disappointed. At least these apps are free - I'd be angry if I had paid money for any of them.

I did download SqueezePlay to see if that would play through the hiFace but it couldn't. Indeed I couldn't find any way to get Windows Media Player, Real Player or plain old Windows sounds to come out through the hiFace.

I won't be using a hiFace for the hifi because the Transporter sounds better and has better interfaces.

I won't be using a hiFace for headphone audio at my PC because the software isn't up to it unless I convert my music collection to FLAC and even then the software seems to have issues. I'll keep using the Squeezebox for headphone audio from the PC.

So, the hiFace is a good piece of hardware at a very attractive price but from my perspective at least, the software has some way to go.

Great review, technobear - I see you rate the Hiface playing WAV files in second place! I believe it can easily take first place from the transporter with some mods to the unit. Here's my report on the sound of the modded unit compared to a modded Musiland from here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digit...ml#post2048687

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I re-worked my Musiland 01US to use a socket for I2S so that my ESS DAC could plug into it. Well the modded HiFace leaves the modded Musiland in the dust. The Musiland has everything done to it that can be done
- disabled all switching regs
- disabled power to DAC & output op-amp
- replaced PS de-coupling caps with larger uf OSCONs
- external clean 5V supply replaced USB 5V (as per the HiFace)
- short I2S to DIP8 socket glued to top of Xilinx chip

The HiFace has better clarity all through the frequency range
- bass is amazingly textured & powerful
- treble has an airiness to it
- finer details are revealed
- soundstage is deep & wide with venues & recording ambience being revealed clearly
- as I said already, just like really good analogue, not a bit of digititis in it. Last night I listened for about 4 hours through headphones without a hint of harshness or headache
- This unit really is a killer when modded - I would love to hear others try it & report their impressions! It would be interesting to hear how it compares against some of the big ticket Transports/DACs (Ayre, Wavelength,dCs, etc) - I don't own or have access to these units

So, I'm thinking of completing the final mods to the HiFace
- replace the 1.2V reg with external clean 1.2V supply
- It just dawned on me that I can power off the clocks & supply my own external clocks! Doh! So this is something I'll experiment with eventually.
- I'll eventually test the BNC output that I have on this unit when I build a DAC with BNC input.

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Interesting stuff Chris.How does the Transporter fare on it's own compared to with the Caiman?

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Originally Posted by Ali Tait

Interesting stuff Chris.How does the Transporter fare on it's own compared to with the Caiman?

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Hi Ali

Chris' post about it is here.

Chris:)

Top review.

Worth doing a few cheapo mods to the SB3 as I suspect the difference between SB3 into Caiman and Transporter into Caiman may be to do with the better smoother internal supply in the Transporter.

Regards

Chris

The fact that the Transporter can also handle twice the sample rate natively might also have something to do with it;)

That's one hurdle you're unlikely to get over without a redesign of the unit.

Over on the Slim forum there's also mention of the S/PDIF being better implemented in the Transporter.

Chris:)

Hi Chris,

I had assumed that the music files were ripped standard red book for the comparison. If we are talking higher res then yes SB3 should not be in the same league and the Hiface and Transporter solutions should show their additional capability.

Regards

Fair 'nuff on the red book CD rips.
Interestingly, all of the Squeezebox family convert 16 bit to 24 bit for the digital volume control to work.
And it is implemented upstream of the digital outputs too.
So 16/44.1 wavs/flacs are always played back as 24/44.1 .

Even more interestingly is that when you compare a true 24/44.1 (HDCD content ripped with dbPoweramp) file against a 16/44.1 converted to 24/44.1, the superiority of the true 24/44.1 file is all too readily apparent. Just so long as you don't allow yourself to be fooled into thinking that the louder ('cos it is by 6dB) 16/44.1 files has more detail initially.

Chris:)

Too true. No matter what you rip in i.e. 16 or 24 bit you cannot better the cd original you start with! Buying music originally recorded in Hi Res format should be quite different though.

Think that I will stick with the SB3 until recording material catches up with things.

Regards

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Originally Posted by Stratmangler

Hi Ali

Chris' post about it is here.

Chris:)

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Cheers Chris.

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Originally Posted by chrism

Buying music originally recorded in Hi Res format should be quite different though.

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I'm quite taken with the ripped DVD-A stuff that I have - 24/96 stereo or 24/192 stereo stuff that I know the SB3 cannot handle natively. In fact there are no Squeezebox products that can handle the 24/192 stuff natively. Correct playback depends on server side downsampling, which you're probably aware of.

If you have any DVD-A stuff that you want to rip google DVDA Explorer - the program only seems to work on MLP (Meridian Lossless Packaging) files.

I've also ripped all of my music video DVD's - all of them have a sample rate of 48 kHz, but curiously only one of them has 24 bit word depth (Jethro Tull Live in Montreux 2003 as it happens).

Chris:)

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Originally Posted by Ali Tait

Cheers Chris.

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No probs.

Chris:)

All my listening was done with CDs and CDs ripped to WAV with EAC :)

Just boxed up my modded HiFace for an audio meet - Top 8 pin connector is for I2S out & connectors on the side are for two 3.3V power supplies, one feeds the clocks & one feeds the Xilinx chip. My review of the sound is below.

At the meeting it was run through BNC into an Pass D1 DAC, Airtight amplifier , QUad ESL 989 speakers. Comments were f***ing Hell! Another person said they hadn't heard as good a sound from PC. It beat the Lector CDP (with tube output stage) as this had some edginess ( tubes had recently been changed on this!) in comparison to the liquid HiFace sound.The owner was experiencing this edginess for a while now so maybe an unfair comparison.

I'm offering a mod service 50 euro to change the PS to external connectors as in the pic. PM me if interested!

http://imgur.com/f1aKY.jpg

Here's my write-up of the sound after I did the PS mods:

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The HiFace has better clarity all through the frequency range
- bass is amazingly textured & powerful
- treble has an airiness to it
- finer details are revealed
- soundstage is deep & wide with venues & recording ambience being revealed clearly
- as I said already, just like really good analogue, not a bit of digititis in it. Last night I listened for about 4 hours through headphones without a hint of harshness or headache
- This unit really is a killer when modded - I would love to hear others try it & report their impressions! It would be interesting to hear how it compares against some of the big ticket Transports/DACs (Ayre, Wavelength,dCs, etc) - I don't own or have access to these units

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Excuse my ignorance but where do you take the power from on the modded unit, do you need a separate ps.

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Originally Posted by roob

Excuse my ignorance but where do you take the power from on the modded unit, do you need a separate ps.

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That's the whole point of the modification - to supply an external clean power supply to the critical parts of the circuit. The white connector at the side is where the power for the clocks & the Xilinx chip are fed - these can be separate individual 3.3V supplies or both fed from one supply!

Here's a photo with battery attached.
http://imgur.com/Xah1I.jpg

And here's the ESS DAC attached via I2S - I know it's uncased but it's driving HD650s beautifully! It shouldn't but it is? The red & black wire are for 3.3V supply (the same battery as above), the two core shielded black cable feeds the headphones directly, no amplifier, no caps, nada :)
http://imgur.com/aC6T0.jpg

Can anyone tell me if theres any benefit of a modded one of these over USB connection to a beresford caiman? On just standard 16/48, or is there no benefit unless you go for hires material