My Thorens TD 124 Mk1 - restoration project

Thanks to the many ideas and assistance received in the section Techiepedia I turned my Technics SL-1210 Mk 2 from a good machine in an high performance turntable, here is the description of the adventure --> http://theartofsound.net/forum/showt...s-SL-1210-Mk-2

In my microscopic turntable collection there are a driven belt turntable (a rare Benz/Emipre Troubadour), and a direct-drive (the SL-1210 Mk2), so I was very tempted by a new idler drive turntable, to have in this way a type piece for each transmission type.

I was very lucky fo find a Thorens TD 124 Mk1.
It is in excellent cosmetic conditions, but it at been unused for about the last 15 years.

Here it is

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...34&oe=576D8A00

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...76&oe=57698E7E

Next steps, not necessarily in that order, will be:

• total revision
• new plint
• new armboard (I will mount my Audiomods tonearm)
• mechanical upgrades (motor, idler wheel, grommets, etc..)

...and at the moment that's all :-)

Wow, that's in beautiful condition. :eek:


Thorens 124s are not too fussy about the plinths they are in, but being 15 years old, it will require:

[1] a new belt (almost certainly),

[2] a new idler (quite possibly),

[3] new rubber chassis support 'mushrooms',

[4] complete relubrication of the platter shaft, stepped pulley and motor bearings,

[5] the anti-click switch supressor checked (these can go short-circuit).

Good luck with the refurbishment - keep us posted. :)

Eugenio,

Your TD124 looks great. I agree with all the points that Barry listed. You should also look at the motor suspension rubbers. You can convert to MkII rubbers, silicon gel grommets, or the springs from Hanze HiFi in Holland. There are problems with finding the correct belts; many are too short (possibly designed for the US 60Hz pulley). I recommend buying from Turntable Basics as they have many different lengths, try 13.6 inches as a minimum. If the belt is too tight you will get noise from the idler.

http://www.turntablebasics.com/belts/thorens.html

Good luck with your restoration.

Hi Barry and Martin,
thanks for the information, in these days I am studying the topic "TD 124" :-)
I am very undecided whether to continue with the DIY or to leave the turntable to the care of a professional.
The most difficult thing to me is to rebuild the motor to mk2 specs, with new improved coils and new bronze bushings, while for the rest I think I will be able to do the proper maintenance/restoration.

Regarding the new idler wheel I'm pretty sure I will buy the Audiosilente modified one, that is very smart
http://www.audiosilente.com/_media/i...e/p1010297.jpg
it is an high precision piece, and the smart idea is that there is an o-ring, so when it is worn out, there will be not to replace the whole piece but only the o-ring, at a very low cost (and it also should have better performance than the original).

Another doubt relates to the motor elastic supports, are better silicon gel grommets or the springs from Hanze HiFi? Has someone tried to compare them?

Thank you :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eu_73

Hi Barry and Martin,
thanks for the information, in these days I am studying the topic "TD 124" :-)
I am very undecided whether to continue with the DIY or to leave the turntable to the care of a professional.
The most difficult thing to me is to rebuild the motor to mk2 specs, with new improved coils and new bronze bushings, while for the rest I think I will be able to do the proper maintenance/restoration.

Regarding the new idler wheel I'm pretty sure I will buy the Audiosilente modified one, that is very smart
http://www.audiosilente.com/_media/i...e/p1010297.jpg
it is an high precision piece, and the smart idea is that there is an o-ring, so when it is worn out, there will be not to replace the whole piece but only the o-ring, at a very low cost (and it also should have better performance than the original).

Another doubt relates to the motor elastic supports, are better silicon gel grommets or the springs from Hanze HiFi? Has someone tried to compare them?

Thank you :)

---

I was going to try one of those 'O'-ring idlers, but when I mentioned it to a member here (can't remember who it was) they said they had tried one in their 124, didn't like it and had gone back to using the original idler. Because of that I abandoned the idea, but you may find it's an improvement. Just thought I ought to let you know.

I have tried one of those... don't do it. Just buy a good condition original or buy a newly made one from Schopper. Expensive but worth it. Schopper also have some NOS ones in too.

Perhaps the Member I mentioned in my post was you Josie? :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Black Adder

I have tried one of those... don't do it. Just buy a good condition original or buy a newly made one from Schopper. Expensive but worth it. Schopper also have some NOS ones in too.

---

I have one of these 'o' ring idler wheels and it's terribly noisy - a TD-124 idler needs that cushion of rubber to isolate most of the contact noise. Regarding the Schopper new idler wheel, I have one of those too, and it is perhaps the noisiest conventional idler that I have tried - most disappointing giving its stellar price. I will happily sell both of these idlers, if anyone is interested.

After the Schopper disappointment, I decided to look at refurbishing old idler wheels. Re-moulding the rubber turned out to be a great deal more complicated than I expected (perhaps that's why Schopper use what seems to be machined polyurethane rather than moulded and cured natural rubber). The answer was to gently grind the rubber edge of an old idler wheel to eliminate any eccentricity, and to reveal a nice flat bit of undamaged rubber. Grinding does involve the use of specialist machinery and great experience on the part of the operator, so that's not me! Press in a new sintered bronze bushing, ream it out very gently to fit the idler shaft, and Hey Presto! a nearly silent idler. Dramatically better than the new Schopper idler, and for a very modest sum. The only proviso is that a badly warped idler cannot be rescued, since cured rubber cannot be re-moulded into shape.

If anyone has a noisy old idler that needs refurbishing, I can do this at modest cost. The rubber grinding is done by a local rubber company, whose helpful boss is a bit of an audiophile.

And to answer an earlier question, the Hanze motor springs are excellent. They do precisely what Hanze claim.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ammonite Acoustics

I have one of these 'o' ring idler wheels and it's terribly noisy - a TD-124 idler needs that cushion of rubber to isolate most of the contact noise. Regarding the Schopper new idler wheel, I have one of those too, and it is perhaps the noisiest conventional idler that I have tried - most disappointing giving its stellar price. I will happily sell both of these idlers, if anyone is interested.

After the Schopper disappointment, I decided to look at refurbishing old idler wheels. Re-moulding the rubber turned out to be a great deal more complicated than I expected (perhaps that's why Schopper use what seems to be machined polyurethane rather than moulded and cured natural rubber). The answer was to gently grind the rubber edge of an old idler wheel to eliminate any eccentricity, and to reveal a nice flat bit of undamaged rubber. Grinding does involve the use of specialist machinery and great experience on the part of the operator, so that's not me! Press in a new sintered bronze bushing, ream it out very gently to fit the idler shaft, and Hey Presto! a nearly silent idler. Dramatically better than the new Schopper idler, and for a very modest sum. The only proviso is that a badly warped idler cannot be rescued, since cured rubber cannot be re-moulded into shape.

If anyone has a noisy old idler that needs refurbishing, I can do this at modest cost. The rubber grinding is done by a local rubber company, whose helpful boss is a bit of an audiophile.

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That's useful to know Hugo. Can you give an indication of the "modest cost" please?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barry

That's useful to know Hugo. Can you give an indication of the "modest cost" please?

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I'd have to confirm the rubber specialist's charge, but I reckon around £25, including return postage.

Thanks

Very interesting, Hugo.

Did you use the idler bearing noise reduction thingimebob with the new idler? I believe it's a series of washers together with some grease that the idler sits on.

I might be interested in having my idler re-spun etc. It can't hurt I suppose.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Black Adder

Very interesting, Hugo.

Did you use the idler bearing noise reduction thingimebob with the new idler? I believe it's a series of washers together with some grease that the idler sits on.

I might be interested in having my idler re-spun etc. It can't hurt I suppose.

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It's a thin, hard, nylon washer, but I haven't found a source for replacements.

yup, mine is a small white nylon washer together with a larger thin felt/plastic washer. But they have changed it now to what looks like a cup with the new idler.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Black Adder

Very interesting, Hugo.

Did you use the idler bearing noise reduction thingimebob with the new idler? I believe it's a series of washers together with some grease that the idler sits on.

I might be interested in having my idler re-spun etc. It can't hurt I suppose.

---

Yes, I used all of Schopper's noise reduction felt and plastic washers plus the supplied grease. Still no match for a carefully refurbished old idler.

The cup thing is a joke - it is intended to be a little oil bath, but it is too tall so the idler rubs on it. I cut mine down a tad so that didn't happen, but the bath then leaked its oil out.

Many thanks to Barry, Hugo and Josie.
Reading your impression about o-ring idler was a bit surprising, to me. Just a couple of days ago I have a nice phone-call with 2 italian friends, owner of the TD-124 and they were satisfied by the improvement given by o-ring idler instead of the original one.
So I think I will buy the o-ring one and then send my original idler for re-rubbering.

While I am pretty sure I will buy the Hanze motor springs.

Sure, Eugenio by all means try it if you wish. It may work for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Black Adder

Sure, Eugenio by all means try it if you wish. It may work for you.

---

Yes - let us know how you get on.

Surely!
But first of all I have fo find a new plinth and a new basearm for my Audiomods Arm.

I also bought a TD124/I a few weeks back - bought as refurbished, but I really didn't expect it to be as the motor rivets were still in place. However, the thing is damned silent standing on it's bolts on a wooden table. I need to mount an arm and test it out soon, but am still looking for a cost effective plinth.

I'd suggest stripping/cleaning/relubing everything as a first steps, and to then assess what needs to be done depending on how it runs.

Mine;
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1636/...c1b9ba1c_c.jpg
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1485/...f843e4f0_c.jpg
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1455/...2b3d8481_c.jpg

Richard

Hi Richard,

regarding the plinth my favourite is the Ortofon-ST104 style, but it's quite expensive...
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...8e6147745a.jpg

I haven't find one for less than 300 euro...

Agreed, get the mechanics working well first.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eu_73

Hi Richard,

regarding the plinth my favourite is the Ortofon-ST104 style, but it's quite expensive...
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...8e6147745a.jpg

I haven't find one for less than 300 euro...

---

You will not find one for that price, even a wreck. I have an original ST104 that cost more than twice that, but it is in fantastic condition.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ammonite Acoustics

You will not find one for that price, even a wreck. I have an original ST104 that cost more than twice that, but it is in fantastic condition.

---

Hello Hugo,

just a question: the original one is in real wood or in MDF / HDF?

Lovely plinth, but beyond my budget I guess...

Mine is one from Schopper... nicely made and looks identical to the original Ortofon. The arm board too!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dowser

I also bought a TD124/I a few weeks back - bought as refurbished, but I really didn't expect it to be as the motor rivets were still in place. However, the thing is damned silent standing on it's bolts on a wooden table. I need to mount an arm and test it out soon, but am still looking for a cost effective plinth.

I'd suggest stripping/cleaning/relubing everything as a first steps, and to then assess what needs to be done depending on how it runs.

Mine;
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1636/...c1b9ba1c_c.jpg
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1485/...f843e4f0_c.jpg
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1455/...2b3d8481_c.jpg

Richard

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Aggh! You have separated the platter bearing shaft from the platter! The two should never be separated as Thorens will have gone to the trouble of adjusting for minimum run-out and balance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barry

Aggh! You have separated the platter bearing shaft from the platter! The two should never be separated as Thorens will have gone to the trouble of adjusting for minimum run-out and balance.

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lol... I heard about this before. I do that all the time for maintenance... It will balance up fine, don't worry. I've never had any problems.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barry

Aggh! You have separated the platter bearing shaft from the platter! The two should never be separated as Thorens will have gone to the trouble of adjusting for minimum run-out and balance.

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Does that apply to a Mk1? IIRC the Mk1 iron platter does not have any scope for such adjustment - it just slides over the bearing stub, as the picture above shows. The Mk2 alloy platter is a different matter, but the inner idler surface and the outer edge of the platter are actually machined together to have the same concentricity. So, it's very easy to set the run-out by using a simple reference point against the platter edge. You can get really obsessive with a run-out gauge, but the blade of a small screwdriver, placed with blu-tak against the platter edge, and a good pair of eyes is good enough to give the necessary reference, and gently tapping the platter one way or the other results in perfectly true running within a minute or so. IMO, separating the bearing shaft from the platter is exactly what you should do - it's far too easy to damage the bearing trying to insert the shaft and platter together, compared to carefully inserting the shaft on its own.

The new Swissonor non-magnetic ferrous platter (which I use on my TD-124) has the same snug-fit over the bearing stub as the Mk1 platter. Why Thorens made the Mk2 platter the way they did is beyond me. A Lenco platter is far better designed and made.

http://www.swissonor.ch/images/Prod11.jpg

Mmm... I'd love to try that platter one day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barry

Aggh! You have separated the platter bearing shaft from the platter! The two should never be separated as Thorens will have gone to the trouble of adjusting for minimum run-out and balance.

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As above- it's a snug fit with my iron platter, so no play anyhow - but, I never understood this approach anyhow, even with a mk2; how hard can it be to adjust run out? :)

Richard

Well it seems I'm in the minority on this. R. Bruil in his Soundfountain item on the 124, seems to have changed his mind on the subject: first suggesting the two should be separated for reasons of possible damage to the bearing, then it was altered to stating that the platter and bearing should not be separated as this would spoil the Thorens adjustment of balance and run-out, now he has reverted to the former idea.

I've removed my platter + shaft several times for maintenance and replaced it without problems or damage. I can understand the danger, but I have never had any difficulties. Because the fit is so precise, the platter will 'bounce' on the cushion of trapped air and then will take a few minutes to fully drop down. I'm minded of the photograph in Jaochim Bung's 'Swiss Precision' showing a Thorens technician measuring the run out of the platter using micrometer dial gauges to ensure the maximum eccentricity was less than 25um. Not sure I could do that by eye.

I have to take a quite difficult choice, because I have got no experience on different plinths.
I have the opportunity to buy a very nice real wood (seller say it's an harmonic wood), or an high tech plinth made by corian.
Price of the corian one should be about 200/250 euro higher than the wooden one.
Does somebody have some experience with corian? Is it really an excellent material for a plinth?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eu_73

I have to take a quite difficult choice, because I have got no experience on different plinths.
I have the opportunity to buy a very nice real wood (seller say it's an harmonic wood), or an high tech plinth made by corian.
Price of the corian one should be about 200/250 euro higher than the wooden one.
Does somebody have some experience with corian? Is it really an excellent material for a plinth?

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I would say no. With the TD-124 you have to make a choice between sitting the chassis, on rubber mushrooms, on a relatively lightweight (but lovely looking) plinth like the ST104, or bolting the thing down firmly to a heavy plinth. I prefer the heavy option. The heavy plinth will help to absorb some of the noise and vibrations that the TD-124 will always produce to some extent. Corian would almost certainly work very well in that respect, but better than a solid wooden plinth? I think that you are better off saving the money and going for wood.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barry

Well it seems I'm in the minority on this. R. Bruil in his Soundfountain item on the 124, seems to have changed his mind on the subject: first suggesting the two should be separated for reasons of possible damage to the bearing, then it was altered to stating that the platter and bearing should not be separated as this would spoil the Thorens adjustment of balance and run-out, now he has reverted to the former idea.

I've removed my platter + shaft several times for maintenance and replaced it without problems or damage. I can understand the danger, but I have never had any difficulties. Because the fit is so precise, the platter will 'bounce' on the cushion of trapped air and then will take a few minutes to fully drop down. I'm minded of the photograph in Jaochim Bung's 'Swiss Precision' showing a Thorens technician measuring the run out of the platter using micrometer dial gauges to ensure the maximum eccentricity was less than 25um. Not sure I could do that by eye.

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Indeed and I know the picture that your referencing. I used to take the platter off with the spindal. But because the unit was bought second hand I figured that the risk of it being untouched for the 40 odd years simply outweighed the possibility of me damaging the spindal when placing it back on the deck. With your deck, Barry I can understand where your coming from seeing as you have known it from new. :)

A little update: today are arrived the Hanze motor springs.
Next week shoud arrive the new plinth, while within the end of March i should send my TD 124 for a complete restoration (and some update like motor to mk2 specs).

The new plinth is just arrived.
It is in solid padauk wood, aged 20 years, and lacquered with mirror polished finish.
Sorry but pics can't explain how beautiful it is, the artificial lights and camera phone does not help to show all its beauty, I am really satisfied.

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...37&oe=575299CF

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...a3&oe=574D57B1

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...26&oe=5754E338

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...37&oe=57927109

Beautiful

+1 gorgeous .

That's a ggod choice - enough bulk and mass to help quieten the TD-124, but open so that there is easy access to the underside.

Please forgive my excess of enthusiasm but I find that this plinth is a small work of art.
I took advantage of the sun shining on Milan to take some outdoors shots under natural light.
Under the direct light wood has a beautiful red hue, while the last image was shot with the sun veiled by a cloud, and the wood has hired more brown tones.

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...04231382_o.jpg

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...25905616_o.jpg

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...93854184_o.jpg

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...86894643_o.jpg

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...34279048_o.jpg

WOW! I like that ALOT eugenio!
Im also a bit of a sucker for beautiful timber! That's going to look spot on when the 124 has been installed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eu_73

Please forgive my excess of enthusiasm but I find that this plinth is a small work of art.
I took advantage of the sun shining on Milan to take some outdoors shots under natural light.
Under the direct light wood has a beautiful red hue, while the last image was shot with the sun veiled by a cloud, and the wood has hired more brown tones.

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...04231382_o.jpg

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...25905616_o.jpg

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...93854184_o.jpg

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...86894643_o.jpg

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...34279048_o.jpg

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I can't wait to see the finished article.

The turntable is on the way to Rome, to be restored and updated to mk2 specs by Audiosilente.

Thanks to Deano, Dave, Hugo, Nathan and Kevin for for appreciating the plinth :)

I have another doubt, regarding the plint that is not so heavy and massive.
I will match the turntable to the plinth using the 4 gel mushrooms.

But what about the plinth feet?
I don't have a clear idea on what should be the best choice.
Will it be better to couple through spikes (or other rigid solutions) or decouple with the elastic material feet (like sorbothane or other damping materials)?

My concern relates to the use of double elastic suspension, which could cause unwanted "wave motions" ot the turntable...

If you are going to use compliant mushrooms between the deck and the plinth, use solid feet under the plinth. If you bolt the deck firmly to the plinth without the mushrooms (my recommendation), then some form of isolating support will work. As you have stated, it's not a good idea to have two separate mass/spring systems fighting each other.

Hi Hugo, thank you for your reply.
Reading on the web I've undersood that low mass plinth (like mine) should have the mushrooms and solid feet, while high mass plinth will have better results with the deck directly linked to the plinth and elastic feet under it.
Have you ever tried to "bolt" the turntable frame on a light plinth?
Do you have any foot to recommend me that works fine and is not too expensive?

Your plinth is much higher mass than the usual 'open' types, but not exactly 'high mass'. I've never used a light plinth, so I simply followed Jim Campbell's recommendation to bolt the deck to his heavy plinth.

Unless you are going to place the deck on a heavy platform (which will act as an energy 'sink'), I would not worry too much about feet - small rubber feet would be fine. If you are going to use a heavy support platform, then the plinth needs to be coupled to it, in which case something like small metal or hardwood cones would work well.

The new feet are arrived

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...15&oe=577E9CDA

...and with the latest arrival there are all the tiles to compose the TD 124 puzzle :-)

Good choice - I've used Stillpoints for years and have not managed to find anything that does what they do with the music. I recommend that you place the deck, with its Stillpoints, on a well-designed and quite massy isolation platform, which will provide a 'sink' for vibrations coming from the deck, and which will stop structure-borne vibration passing up into the deck. Stillpoints are very clever at channelling energy, but they do not isolate, so when used intelligently with a suitable platform, you are onto a winner.