Sound HiFi and Dave Cawley...strange customer service.

About two weeks ago I wrote to Dave Cawley at Sound Hifi asking about the new Oyaide BR-12 mat/ platter in butyl. I have the BR-one and MJ-12 (that I just love) and said I was looking into the MN ETP platter, too, but think maybe the price is too high for me at the moment. And without trying it out first it might be a risk for me. Then I wrote up all of my equipment and what my system consist of. As the blue text in my signature says.......

The answer I got, was something about how my hifi gear seemed to be ill matched and put together by postorder. My Isokinetik SM750 (modified Jelco 750D with silver cables and vertical c/w) was obviosly a poor choice of arm. He would much rather buy a SME 309. And he never even answered the question I had about the Oyaide BR-12. It might have been too much mention of Mike New when I listed my gear, I don´t know:rolleyes:

I wrote back: Wow, great answer:mental:

I also had an incident a couple of years ago after I received a warped Achromat 1200:(

Well, I know were my money is NOT going next time I shall upgrade my system:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChrisKemp

The answer I got, was something about how my hifi gear seemed to be ill matched and put together by postorder.

---

What does that mean, Chris: "postorder"?

The rest, given the man concerned, I'm not the least surprised about! :rolleyes:

Marco.

Sorry, my bad: here is the answer I got after I asked about the Oyaide BR-12 butyl mat:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dave Cawley@Sound Hifi

Hi Chris

This sounds like a lit of miss-matched components bought by mail order, sorry ! I simply can't comment on what it or similar variants would sound like. For that sort on money, and where I actually put my own money, would be a SME Model 10 and 309 arm.

Regards

Dave

---

:scratch:

If it's not SME, it's broken! :doh: ;)

Marco.

That is an extraordinary reply. The gratuitous insult says a lot about him.

Hmmmm a 309 on every 1210, seems a very familiar strategy, and perhaps a very profitable one as well?

Doesn't he sell the Jelco arm? I know he used to. The man is a salesman, not a hifi enthusiast IMO. I wouldn't take any advice he tenders. :)

Since he can't reply here, apparently the Jelco arms *can* have iffy bearings... Never used one and have no personal experience sadly. These days, a Jelco 750 is a low cost 'budget' tonearm, since all the competition has rocketed in price (what the fugg are SME playing at with their costs?).

The SME 309 IS a damned good tonearm, the detachable shell possibly giving advantages other than flexibility in my experience. Mind you, it was well under £600 and I think slightly cheaper than an Ittok when I used one extensively.

As for spending thousands on a techie when you could buy a Hyperspace instead, I've already expressed my positive feelings on NAS turntables many times, so no need to stir the pot further :) Doesn't mean I dislike the techies though, 'cos I don't at all!

Yep, and they're *totally* different T/Ts, which in turn present music in totally different ways, thus appealing to their respective buyers in totally different (but equally valid) ways. Therefore, it's just as worthy "spending thousands on a techie", as buying a Hyperspace, or vice versa, if that's what you want :)

Quite simply, whichever unique sound it is you desire between the two (that of a Hyperspace or a modded Techy), there's no other way of obtaining it - and *that*, muchacho, is the whole point, regardless of how much one spends! ;)

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrei

That is an extraordinary reply. The gratuitous insult says a lot about him.

---

Indeed, a shining example of someone who's in this game solely to line his own pockets: a man obsessed with profit margins (hence why he champions SME, because the margins he gets from them are high - usually higher than most of the other stuff he sells).

Compare DC with the likes of our own hi-fi dave, a genuine enthusiast with a shop [essentially one of 'us'], who's in the audio trade for the right reasons (customer focussed first, profit margins second), and you'll see a major reason for why the hi-fi industry is in the state that it's in today!

DC and MCRU should join forces, as they're cut from exactly the same cloth.

Marco.

In the interests of balance and fairness, I think DC's comments 'elsewhere' should be copied in here [in that respect I'm making an exception to the banning rule]:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dave Cawley

As you can see I never mentioned Jelco at all with this customer, neither did I recommend a 309 for his 1200. But as it has been raised, I had several Jelco batches with faulty bearings and a well know turntable manufacturer bought 25 and every one needed the bearings adjusted. Enough was truly enough !

You can read exactly what I said as he also asked about ditching his SL1200 and going Nottingham Analogue, and that's why I told him I used a SME in my own system.

That particular customer emailed in with a SL-1200 fitted with an array of non-matching parts that even Marco would not agree on. Not one part was from me and I politely and realistically told him that I could not possibly comment. Clearly he did not like that.

This is what he said, note nothing was supplied or recommended by me, so how could I possibly comment !!

---

Chris' correspondence to Dave is shown below
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi.
I have a fully modified Technics SL-1210M5G:
- Isokinetik Silver Melody tonearm
- MCRU psu
- Isonoe feet and Techniboots
- Oyaide MJ-12+BR-one
- Mike New bearing

My question is about the MJ-12+BR-one butyl mat.

I am concidering a Mike New ETP platter, but to be honest I do think it is way too much to pay for a platter. And besides I really like what the MJ-12+BR-one did to the sound. I have used the Achromat 1200 before and that was also very good, but I find the Oyaide combo to be better in my setup.

Now I see there is a new butyl mat out there, the Oyaide BR-12. Is that mat an alternative to MJ-12 or is it an alternative to BR-one (under the MJ-12)?? I mean, would putting BR-12 UNDER the MJ-12 be an upgrade compared to the BR-1 sheet?

I'm not sure how good of an upgrade an ETP platter from Mike New would be,

but also for that amount of money alone+selling my fully modified 1210M5G would get me close to buying a Nottingham Hyperspace

.... And without ever hearing a Hyperspace (heard Nottingham AnnaLog at a hifi show once, and I still remember how impressed I was!), and

I will imagine the Hyperspace to be an overall better TT than a modified 1210?

Well, the question is about BR-12. Is MJ-12+BR-1 combo the best combo?

Kind regards
Chris
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What's your response to that, Chris? It does paint a slightly different picture, although based on (extensive) personal dealings with DC, I still stand by my previous comments.

Marco.

P.S I should add for the benefit of folks here that I know all about your current 'T/T conundrums' (including the possibility of you ditching your Techy), as we've already shared many PMs discussing the matter.

And for complete balance, I have had nothing but good, professional service from Sound HiFi.
I have bought my Funk arm and Mk1 platter from DC and have no complaints about service, product recommendations or price.

Incidentally, for those with a short memory 'elsewhere'... At the beginning, when DC joined AoS, he was all over the place like a rash, promoting his wares, intent on brainwashing our members into believing that he was the 'primo Technics T/T guru', which unfortunately some fell for! :doh:

Examine the evidence here in the archives, and see how active DC was on this forum during the first year he joined, until others and I sussed what he was about and banned him....

The parallels, therefore, between him and MCRU are obvious: both are parasite salesmen, first and foremost, intent on nothing else but lining their own pockets - and both ripped off (or rather in the case of DC, tried to rip off) other people's designs [DC with Mike New's Technics bearing, and DB with Gaz's computer server], before being caught out and rightly banned for their unethical and disgraceful behaviour.

Those are the facts of the matter, plain and simple.

Marco.

I don't see any similarities between DC's bearing and the Mike new one?
One is a bespoke design/build the other is a modified standard part.

To be fair to DC, he is in business to do business and he clearly does well with SME; and there's nothing wrong with that. Neither is there any problem with running an audio dealership from home - how many dealers have had to give up High Street premises because of the fixed costs involved? I bought my SME 309 from DC and would happily do business with him again - he's every bit as passionate about what he does as any other dealer that I know; maybe a bit prickly sometimes (as I can testify) but only human. We audiophiles can be difficult customers, you know! Anyone who has heard DC's version of the SME 10 at shows, with SME arms and (lovely) Miyajima cartridges knows that he's not daft.

:popcorn::popcorn:.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CageyH

I don't see any similarities between DC's bearing and the Mike new one?
One is a bespoke design/build the other is a modified standard part.

---

It's a long story, Kevin. At first, DC tried to have the design of Mike's bearing directly copied in the UK, behind Mike's back when they were supposed 'business partners' (and I have documented proof of that).

However, when he discovered that the costs of producing them here were completely prohibitive of him making the type of profit margins he demands, he quickly gave up on the idea, but not before he was caught out with his shady shenanigans!

Then of course, still keen to get a slice of the 'Techy modification action', he produced his own bearing for the Techincs (under the Sound Hi-fi banner), which is simply a tarted up stock item, as unlike Mike, he doesn't have the engineering wherewithal to produce anything better - i.e bespoke designed from the ground up! ;)

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ammonite Acoustics

To be fair to DC, he is in business to do business and he clearly does well with SME; and there's nothing wrong with that. Neither is there any problem with running an audio dealership from home - how many dealers have had to give up High Street premises because of the fixed costs involved? I bought my SME 309 from DC and would happily do business with him again - he's every bit as passionate about what he does as any other dealer that I know; maybe a bit prickly sometimes (as I can testify) but only human. We audiophiles can be difficult customers, you know! Anyone who has heard DC's version of the SME 10 at shows, with SME arms and (lovely) Miyajima cartridges knows that he's not daft.

---

That's fine, Hugo, but for me it doesn't excuse his rather insulting (or at the very least patronising/derogative) response to Chris about his (clearly carefully thought out and selected TO HIM) modified Techy being, I quote: "miss-matched components bought by mail order"!! :doh:

Now that's one sure way of getting a potential customer's back up, which is precisely why Chris reacted the way he did! And that type of dismissive arrogance (amongst many other things) is precisely what's wrong with DC.

As per usual, if it's not been 'blessed by him', it's no use! :rolleyes:

Marco.

I've had one dealing with DC.
I wrote to him asking for some detailed information on his bearing and whether he thought it would address a certain issue I was having with what was a fairly standard deck at the time.
His reply, consisting of a few words was pretty much "If it was me I would put on an SME309". Say what now?!?!
-
I have a 309 (amongst others). Sure it's a great arm; bettered IMO by the arm I choose to use in my sig but the point is what the hell?
How on earth did that response relate?
-
I can only assume DC makes a large profit margin on the 309 and is somewhat doubtful of the eficacy of his own bearing... Maybe!
-
Truth is I don't really know. What I do know is that those who are able to respond with a friendly and professional attitude will get my business first, regardless of cost!

Can we put a line under this thread?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aniki

I've had one dealing with DC.
I wrote to him asking for some detailed information on his bearing and whether he thought it would address a certain issue I was having with what was a fairly standard deck at the time.
His reply, consisting of a few words was pretty much "If it was me I would put on an SME309". Say what now?!?!
-
I have a 309 (amongst others). Sure it's a great arm; bettered IMO by the arm I choose to use in my sig but the point is what the hell?
How on earth did that response relate?
-
I can only assume DC makes a large profit margin on the 309 and is somewhat doubtful of the eficacy of his own bearing... Maybe!
-
Truth is I don't really know. What I do know is that those who are able to respond with a friendly and professional attitude will get my business first, regardless of cost!

---

Yet more evidence of the 'SME obsession', prevalent at Sound Hi-Fi, and perhaps profit margins dictating recommendations given?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aniki

What I do know is that those who are able to respond with a friendly and professional attitude will get my business first, regardless of cost!

---

Nail > head. If you can't respond in a friendly and respectful way at all times, to the polite enquires of potential customers, then you don't deserve to be in business. End of.

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tarzan

Can we put a line under this thread?

---

Why - what's your problem with it, Andy? Chris outlined an experience he's had with Dave Cawley, of Sound Hi-Fi, and I've allowed Dave's response from elsewhere to be published here (as he has no right of reply on AoS), something incidentally that I didn't have to do if my intention was solely to discredit him.

Now, we're awaiting Chris' response to that. Once that's been given, and dealt with appropriately, I'll then consider drawing a line under the thread. I think it's important that people are allowed to relate their experiences with dealers on a public platform such as this.

Quite simply, if you're 'squeaky clean', in that respect, then you'll receive nothing but praise, because you're one of the 'good guys'. Of course, the opposite also applies when that's not the case.....

It's all about the type of reputation you've built with your customers, and how that stands up to scrutiny. You reap what you sow! That's one of the benefits of audio Internet forums today: they 'shine a light' on BOTH the good guys and the bad guys in the hi-fi industry - and on AoS we're here to do *precisely* that :)

Dealers these days should always be aware that if their behaviour in some way hasn't been as professional or as courteous to customers as it should've been, then that's very likely to come back and bite them on the bum... It's not like the (bad) old days, where all of this stuff stayed safely hidden! ;)

Marco.

Ok, I´ll try to respond. And bear in mind that english is not my native language;)

The reason why I reacted on DCs reply, was his short and insulting answer. And I must add that I responded even shorter back to him, with a "wow, great answer". If he would have elaborated on what he meant by his short insulting reply to my two-sided question (one about the new Oyaide BR-12 and what he thought about going the ETP platter way vs selling the techy to buy a NAS). But he did not respond to that at all. He did not apologize for the short rude answer. It was nothing. I did not ask about SME, but NAS, Oyayde and ETP. And again this is the answer I got:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dave Cawley

This sounds like a lit of miss-matched components bought by mail order, sorry ! I simply can't comment on what it or similar variants would sound like. For that sort on money, and where I actually put my own money, would be a SME Model 10 and 309 arm.

---

So where is the miss-matched products? Is it the ProAc Response D25 that does not fit in? By the way I wrote to ProAc last year after getting them, and guess what, Mr. Stewart Taylor himself answered very informative; congratulating me and called me sir. He helped directly with my question and said if it was anything else I should just write or call again. Now that is my kind of hifi dealer. Professional!

Maybe DC did not know that ProAc and good quality tube amps are a match that even mr. Taylor use in their show room. And no, the Line Magnetic LM218iA amp with all quality components, class A, 22 watt single ended triode with 845 tubes and EL-34 driver tubes for the 845 was not mail ordered:) Compared to the top integrated from Creek that I tested side by side with the LM Audio, LM Audio won hands down. No contest!

So maybe it is the mail ordered Jasmine LP2.5DU he is referring to? Well, that IS mail ordered because I ordered it directly from factory. At the time I received the Jasmine I had borrowed two very good phono stages for demoing in my own system, for a period of about 3-4 weeks. That was the Audion Premiere MM tube phono stage and the Graham Slee Reflex M + PSU1 (the upgraded PSU from Graham). After many hours of A/B/C/A/B/C-testing between those phono stages, I landed on the Jasmine. Why? Because it had the best sound. Not because it cost half of what the Reflex M cost, but it was more resolved and more dynamic:)

Then we have all the upgrades done to my 1210M5G and I´m not going into that:) Those are all well known upgrades.

So where the miss-matched mail-ordered comes from, or that I should rather buy into SME?? Well, now I know. All I wanted was his opinion on a new product he is selling (the Oyaide BR-12 vs MJ-12+BR-One) and what was his opinion on buying the ETP platter vs NAS Hyperspace. He could have easily managed to promote his SME combo without insults. He could and should as a hifi dealer, answered my questions and THEN he could have mentioned SME and why I should considering that route instead. Well, he did non of that and he is the kind of dealers I tend to leave alone.

There are so many dealers out there with great service. ProAc being one of them :cool:

Marco, you claim that SME has high margins:
Sorry, but as the site owner you really need to act with more care....do you know what SME margins are? Lower than many competitions arms, and with strict ' pay in advance' condition. On average they are tougher on dealers than the average company. Their margins are pretty standard, similar to Linn, Naim, or probably Jelco. Your slur on Dave Cawley....who I don't know...is careless and unfair. You effectively accuse him of dishonest advice driven by profit motives. But without offering a scrap of evidence for such a public claim.
The chap wrote asking advice, and the dealer replied, in a slightly abrupt but perfectly straightforward manner.. What people don't like is the advice he gave. If he had, insincerely, praised Jelco and urged the spending of more money on such products, then no doubt he would be a 'good' dealer.
The habit of 'dealer bashing' is unpleasant, and for the forum owner to weigh in with dubious comments just makes it worse.
If you don't like the advice from any dealer, do not buy from them. You have no reason to accuse this dealer of dishonest advice....yo just don't happen to agree with it. That's all. Strange as it might seem, hi fi dealers are not our personal servants. As I said, I don't know this dealer, and don't really care what his views are: I do care that dealers get pilloried for offering their view, when asked for it!
Indeed, you could just as easily praise this chap for being prepared to speak his mind. Incidentally, this is not a criticism of Mr Kemp's gear.....just his expectation that he should be told only what he wants to hear.

I'm popping out for a bit now, but in order to clear up your confusion, Chris, the 'mismatch' DC's arrogantly referring to, is the way in which you've modified your Techy - i.e. a bearing from one manufacturer, a PSU from another and an arm from somewhere else...

In short, it doesn't meet with his notion of 'synergy', but most importantly, it contains no modded Technics items from Sound Hi-Fi, which he's wrapped his ego around or made a profit from. Hence the ignorant dismissal of all the listening you've done, based on what YOUR EARS have decided, resulting in the (to you) carefully considered components you've chosen for your turntable.

Essentially, it's your fault for having a mind of your own!! :doh:

Quite frankly, it's an inconsiderate, shortsighted and shocking response from someone who claims to be customer focussed - but then, as I've said, based on what others and I here know about the man, it's no surprise. At least you've done the correct thing and taken your business elsewhere.

Perhaps that will give Mr Cawley some food for thought in future, in terms of how he treats his potential customers?

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paskinn

Sorry, but as the site owner you really need to act with more care....do you know what SME margins are? Lower than many competitions arms, and with strict ' pay in advance' condition. Your slur on Dave Cawley....who I don't know...is careless and unfair.

---

Well, that's not what I've been told, and in person by the man himself! He's gloated about the 'brilliant margins he's secured' with them umpteen times to me in the past, because of the 'shed loads' of it he sells (his words). I guess we'll agree to differ then, Peter, until some actual figures are quoted, and if you're right, I'll gladly retract my comments.

Perhaps someone should ask DC what his profit margin is with sales of SME components and see what his answer is??

Quote:

---

The chap wrote asking advice, and the dealer replied, perfectly politely .

---

Not in my view he didn't, or most importantly, that of Chris. So do you call referring to someone's carefully considered choices as "mismatched components bought by mail order" polite? If so, you and I have rather different meanings of the word.

Quote:

---

The habit of 'dealer bashing' is unpleasant, and for the forum over toon in with untrue remarks, just makes it all worse.

---

In your opinion, it's untrue, although it depends on what you're referring to. If it's in reference to profit margins, then as I've said we shall see. However, everything else written here about DC is factual and can be proven.

As for 'dealer bashing', well if the shoe fits. There are plenty of dealers who receive praise here all the time - and deservedly so. However, when they deserve the opposite, then that's what is given.

Furthermore, you probably don't know the history between DC and this forum, in order to judge what criticism is deserved and what isn't. In that respect, I'd ask you to read the archives, after which you may take a rather alternative view.

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paskinn

Sorry, but as the site owner you really need to act with more care....do you know what SME margins are? Lower than many competitions arms, and with strict ' pay in advance' condition. Your slur on Dave Cawley....who I don't know...is careless and unfair.
The chap wrote asking advice, and the dealer replied, perfectly politely . What people don't like is the advice he gave. If he had, insincerely, praised Jelco and urged the spending of more money on such products, then no doubt he would be a 'good' dealer.
The habit of 'dealer bashing' is unpleasant, and for the forum over toon in with untrue remarks, just makes it all worse.
If you don't like the advice from any dealer, do not buy from them. You have no reason to accuse this dealer of dishonest advice....yo just don't happen to agree with it. That's all. Strange as it might seem, hi fi dealers are not our personal servants.

---

Then you truly did not get the point:rolleyes:

It is not what you recommend, but how you present it. As I wrote, DC could have easily have managed to promote his SME TT and arm, without insulting a potential customer. And it is of course that "mail-ordered" jargon I'm talking about.:mental:That he wrote as an insult to be felt as an insult. I have been into hifi for the last 23 years and I am always glad to have recommendations of ways to go. That is also why I have a modified 1210M5G and not a mainstream Rega RP-3 or a Project that so many said I should start with:eyebrows:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

I'm popping out for a bit now, but in order to clear up your confusion, Chris, the 'mismatch' DC's arrogantly referring to, is the way in which you've modified your Techy - i.e. a bearing from one manufacturer, a PSU from another and an arm from somewhere else...

In short, it doesn't meet with his notion of 'synergy', but most importantly, it contains no modded Technics items from Sound Hi-Fi, which he's wrapped his ego around or made a profit from! Hence the ignorant dismissal of all the listening you've done, based on what YOUR EARS have decided, resulting in the (to you) carefully considered components you've chosen for your turntable.

Essentially, it's your fault for having a mind of your own!! :doh:

Quite frankly, it's an inconsiderate, shortsighted and shocking response from someone who claims to be customer focussed - but then, as I've said, based on what others and I here know about the man, it's no surprise. At least you've done the correct thing and taken your business elsewhere.

Perhaps that will give Mr Cawley some food for thought in future, in terms of how he treats his potential customers?

Marco.

---

Well, that is even more surprising:eek: I think it sound pretty good:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

I'm popping out for a bit now, but in order to clear up your confusion, Chris, the 'mismatch' DC's arrogantly referring to, is the way in which you've modified your Techy - i.e. a bearing from one manufacturer, a PSU from another and an arm from somewhere else...

In short, it doesn't meet with his notion of 'synergy', but most importantly, it contains no modded Technics items from Sound Hi-Fi, which he's wrapped his ego around or made a profit from! Hence the ignorant dismissal of all the listening you've done, based on what YOUR EARS have decided, resulting in the (to you) carefully considered components you've chosen for your turntable.
.

---

I think this is where individual perception comes into play. I read Dave's answer as him not being able to comment on which of the upgrades Chris asked about would be the best because the parts Chris has modified his SL-1210 with are from a variety of manufacturers, some or all of which Dave isn't familiar with. Therefore how would Dave be expected to know what they sound like, and thus advise best on a change? Equally, the SME mention seems to be related to Chris's own enquiry about the possibility of changing the whole turntable for something like a NA Hyperspace. Yes, Dave sells SMEs and not Nottingham Analogues but he's a dealer and wouldn't be in business for very long if he didn't recommend stuff he sells!

That said, I do agree that the tone of the response as it has been reproduced is somewhat curt and dismissive and not what I would have expected from Dave based on my own dealings with him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChrisKemp

Then you truly did not get the point:rolleyes:

It is not what you recommend, but how you present it.

---

Precisely - and that is the whole point that's being missed here, i.e. it's not *what* you say but how you say it, and there are quite a few audio designers and dealers guilty of such inconsiderateness and arrogance, based on an overinflated sense of superiority and self-importance. It's one of the main reasons why the high-end audio industry in the UK is in that state that it's in.

The bottom line is, DC's lost your business, where had he shown you more respect and handled the situation differently, an alternative and more positive outcome would've likely ensued. He should certainly be reflecting on that matter and learning from his mistake, as well as others here attempting to defend the indefensible.

Marco.

Hi Adam,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beobloke

I think this is where individual perception comes into play. I read Dave's answer as him not being able to comment on which of the upgrades Chris asked about would be the best because the parts Chris has modified his SL-1210 with are from a variety of manufacturers, some or all of which Dave isn't familiar with.

---

Yes, that's one way of interpreting it. The key, however, is that's not how the potential customer did. It still doesn't excuse his remark about 'mismatched mail order components'. That comment wasn't constructive, and indeed was completely unnecessary.

Quote:

---

Therefore how would Dave be expected to know what they sound like, and thus advise best on a change?

---

Sure, but by the same token, due to that lack of knowledge, he shouldn't presume to judge the turntable that Chris has - and worse - deem that an SME T/T and arm combination was better, when he had no proof that was the case :doh: :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

That said, I do agree that the tone of the response as it has been reproduced is somewhat curt and dismissive and not what I would have expected from Dave based on my own dealings with him.

---

That's the whole crux of the matter, and as Chris said, if DC had been more pleasant and simply made some recommendations about the Oyaide mat (that he DOES have experience of), which Chris was enquiring about - indeed it was the whole point of him contacting DC in the first place - then it's very likely that this thread would never have seen the light of day!

Marco,

This is an unpleasant threa in my opinion. One specific dealer has been singled out, and all sorts of remarks made about him, simply because he gave a brief, straightforward reply to some complete stranger who e-mailed him.
It may or may not have been 'good business' but no one has been given poor service or cheated in any way. Mr Kemp is not even a customer of the dealer in question. Dealers get flooded with E mails these days, many from people who are near professional 'time wasters'. They are free to choose how they respond, just as potential customers are free to make judgements accordingly.
I know a very successful dealer who has begun actively discouraging some potential customers, because he thinks they are too much potential trouble. His choice.....I suspect there are far more awkward and unreasonable customers than unreasonable dealers. People making a living have to make decisions about how they use their time, and the target group,of customers.
None of whic is to suggest Mr kemp is unreasonable, he just needs to find a more sympathetic dealer....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paskinn

This is an unpleasant threa in my opinion.

---

Well, Peter, with respect, you would say that, given that you're an acknowledged SME 'fanboy', and so anything written that's remotely critical of SME makes you bristle (as it also does on pfm, where you jump in and do the same thing, whenever you feel that your 'pet company' needs defending).

Plus, a good friend of yours is a dealer and has given you trade prices on your SME kit, therefore it's patently clear where your 'sensibilities' lie... ;)

I understand where you're coming from, but I'm afraid this situation smacks all too much of someone thinking that they 'know best', when at the end of the day, the only 'best' that matters is what the end user/customer considers as such!

Marco.

Message to DC: do you want me to temporarily un-ban you, so you can come here and defend yourself from the accusations made? If so, that's not a problem, as I have nothing to hide and can ably reply to anything you have to say.

Otherwise, with you responding 'over there', if I quote you here and reply (which I'm perfectly willing to do), I'd be breaking the rules again... ;)

Marco.

I would like to add my two-Penny's worth.

1. As a now retired HiFi retailer I can tell you that a larger than you think percentage of potential customers are just plain hard work (I'm being polite here). That is a Dealers lot and there were times I would have liked to publicly shame some of them (customers) but it's not possible and unprofessional so hay-Ho. While we often talk about synergy with components, I think this also applies to the relationship between dealer and customer. If a dealer upsets you(for whatever reason), build a relationship with another dealer.

2. Regarding the point re high margins on SME. It is not unusual for a supplier to offer better prices to dealers who physically stock and sell there products in any form of volume. In fact that is normal in many trades and I see no problem with a dealer having faith in a particular product and pushing them accordingly.

As for the rights or wrongs of this particular thread I must admit to sitting on the fence and watching from afar.:popcorn:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

Well, Peter, with respect, you would say that, given that you're an acknowledged SME 'fanboy', and so anything written that's remotely critical of SME makes you bristle (as it also does on pfm, where you jump in and do the same thing, whenever you feel that your 'pet company' needs defending).

Plus, a good friend of yours is a dealer and has given you trade prices on your SME kit, therefore it's patently clear where your 'sensibilities' lie... ;)

I understand where you're coming from, but I'm afraid this situation smacks all too much of someone thinking that they 'know best', when at the end of the day, the only 'best' that matters is what the end user/customer considers as such!

Marco.

---

I'm in no way an SME fanboi but think this thread is bang out of order. You are openly slagging off a dealer based on second-hand and possibly biased info. The dealer has no comeback here and what's to say (and I'm not saying he does) the OP has an axe to grind or is a competitor of this dealer.

You banned him and are now freely slagging him off, don't know about here but most forums have a rule about not discussing banned members.

If I was that dealer I'd be looking at legal action for defamation. Doesn't put the forum in a great light either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Clive197

1. As a now retired HiFi retailer I can tell you that a larger than you think percentage of potential customers are just plain hard work (I'm being polite here). That is a Dealers lot and there were times I would have liked to publicly shame some of them (customers) but it's not possible and unprofessional so hay-Ho.

---

Precisely (see emboldened text). However, don't get me wrong, I know that it also applies the other way round, and some 'customers' are a royal pain the arse! I too used to be in hi-fi retail (when I worked for Bill Hutchinson, in Glasgow, and Acoustica, in Chester). However, I don't think Chris qualifies as one of the above.

Quote:

---

While we often talk about synergy with components, I think this also applies to the relationship between dealer and customer. If a dealer upsets you(for whatever reason), build a relationship with another dealer.

---

That's a good and very valid point. However, I don't think it excuses DC's poor attitude in this case.

Quote:

---

2. Regarding the point re high margins on SME. It is not unusual for a supplier to offer better prices to dealers who physically stock and sell there products in any form of volume. In fact that is normal in many trades...

---

So, in effect, DC could be getting a more attractive margin than normal, from SME, simply because he shifts a lot of their kit? I have no problem with that whatsoever, but it certainly adds to his incentive for selling it. After accepting that fact, then one can make of it what one wills.

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thebiglebowski

I'm in no way an SME fanboi but think this thread is bang out of order. You are openly slagging off a dealer based on second-hand and possibly biased info.

---

Nope, the OP (not me) has chosen to relate his valid experiences, and I'm simply commenting based on the FACTUAL knowledge I have about the man in question, much of it based on my personal experience of dealing with him, so what should I do, just shut up and say nothing?

Quote:

---

The dealer has no comeback here and what's to say (and I'm not saying he does) the OP has an axe to grind or is a competitor of this dealer.
You banned him and are now freely slagging him off, don't know about here but most forums have a rule about not discussing banned members.

---

In reference to the dealer having no comeback here, that's precisely why (if you scroll back) you'll see I've offered to temporarily un-ban him, in order to allow him to defend himself against the accusations made. If he chooses not to take up that offer, then I can either ignore his responses elsewhere or publish them here and reply to them. I'm not that bothered which one happens.

Quote:

---

If I was that dealer I'd be looking at legal action for defamation. Doesn't put the forum in a great light either.

---

That's your opinion, which you're entitled to. However, as a newish/irregular member here, you're obviously unaware of the 'history' between DC, AoS and some of its members, and so not best placed to offer a considered opinion on that matter. As for action in reference to defamation - you can't defame someone simply by telling people the truth about them! ;)

Marco.

Ok, I think that Chris has had his say now, and the reality of the situation, and who's at fault here, is patently obvious, so it's time to draw this matter to a close.

I will not be dragged into the situation any more, or respond to any of DC's further input elsewhere, save to comment on this:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dave Cawley

Why is Marco so very paranoid about me loosing business ? I sell as he says, shed loads of stuff to sheepish AoS members. I'm not remotely poor and I turn down product lines every month, I don't need any more sales.

All this stuff he spouts only increase my Google ranking.

---

"I'm not remotely poor" - what's that got to do with anything??

Actually, it says rather a lot about you and where your priorities in life lie (i.e financial advancement, uber-alles)! IMO, you're a disgrace to the audio industry and a perfect example of a parasitic dealer element, infecting and sucking the life out of it.

Note the 'me, me' tone, about Google rankings, etc, in what DC has written above, together with his sheer arrogance. That sums him up. It's also interesting what he thinks of AoS members, so perhaps you "SHEEP" may want to bear that in mind in future before handing your hard-earned cash over to him?

The disdain shown towards AoS members is also something else that he has in common with MCRU, if you remember what he was banned for, which is why, as I said earlier, those two are cut from the same cloth.

Most importantly, however, no apology from DC offered to Chris, or even an attempt to understand that how he treated him was wrong! :doh:

Anyway, hopefully Creepy Cawley has learned his lesson now, and in future will temper his responses accordingly to his customers. If not, the ever-watchful eye of AoS will be there to report on it - and that's a promise ;)

<Kirk out>

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/537/WJlD2X.jpg

{Picture posted by me, stolen from 'elsewhere', as I like the legs!} Cheers, jam-rag/fanny pad :D

Marco.