Shure 97xE Cartridge views?

I have just purchased aShure97xE and have had it in my Luxman TT for a couple of days. I have to say to start with I was not impressed. I had been using a Benz Micro Silver which to my ears is very smooth and refined. I got the Shure as it is a better compliance match, albeit a cheaper cart. The Shure seemed harsh in comparison. But tonight after a few hours of play, a bit of fettling (alignment, tracking etc) and a couple of Stella's it's sounding better, much better. So anyone else got experience of this cartridge, and whether it improves with playing?

Hmm, no experience yet but have one boxed and unused. I will try to install this and report back. I have read that there QC may be an issue with the Shure which may explain the very different views of this cart.

I have one though currently fitted with a Jico SAS stylus. The sound with the original stylus did open up for me over time and the highs became less recessed. Seemed to happen after about 20 hours or so. I thought it became a nice (horrible word) if unexciting cartridge till I fitted the SAS stylus which rather transformed it.

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Originally Posted by Lynster

I have one though currently fitted with a Jico SAS stylus. The sound with the original stylus did open up for me over time and the highs became less recessed. Seemed to happen after about 20 hours or so. I thought it became a nice (horrible word) if unexciting cartridge till I fitted the SAS stylus which rather transformed it.

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Thanks Lyn, I have aJico SAS on order, looking forward to hearing the difference!

I have one. Got it a few months ago for my SL1210.

Sounds great to me. Very easy on the ear. Maybe at times I'd like a bit more "attack" in the sound.

That Jico stylus looks like an obvious upgrade step eventually. Expensive though. Do they have to be imported from Japan? Big customs charges?

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I have aJico SAS on order, looking forward to hearing the difference!

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Nick,
I've never heard a Benz Micro Silver myself but if I understand correctly it's a MC so I'd suspect that the MM Shure should sound characteristically different. Love to hear what you think once you get it.

I'm not yet across MC's as I've tended to stick with the better MM's for compliance reasons and adding the SAS stylus and boron cantilever puts the M97xE quite high up there IMO.

One thing though I didn't think to mention before is that it's a later Shure engine so fairly high inductance and with the 'standard' 47K loading, it really needs the capacitance to be kept down in the 200 to 300 picofarad region (Shure recommendation) as with most modern MM's. If so, it really sounds quite sweet with a reasonably good top end. Too high a total loading capacitance and the treble can roll off. My total is currently about 260pf (phono stage + IC's + arm wire) and even with the standard stylus, the M97xE is very pleasant with good overall balance and quite musical. With the admittedly, not cheap, SAS stylus and the aforementioned loadings, it's quieter, more detailed and refined and the highs are even more extended - nothing really missing at all and quite an amazing personality change.;)

Hi, I think they do need to be imported directly, not sure how much the duty will be.

Couple of points.. This cartridge is a full compromise of coil parameters and MECHANICAL RESONANCES!!! The SAS stylus changes the mechanical aspect quite significantly I'm informed so the cartridge will sound totally different, for good or bad, it's up to you..

My current take on vinyl is that so many cartridges 'add' a little halo around the remains of the 'unspoken channel.' What I mean is, sounds hard left will have a tiny residue (due to stereo separation not being infinite) on the 'unspoken' right channel (and vice versa). Quite often, this residue has some sort of reverb, or 'halo' around it which wasn't there in the original master, or if it was, it's being magnified somewhat in my opinion.

Now, Shures just don't seem to do this - and neither do Deccas either, although the latter's separation figures are way inferior. Both these brands are often criticised for having an overall 'dry' presentation and rather bland and two-dimensional in the case of most Shures in comparison with more 'colourful' moving coil alternatives. The fact that the V15 III was in use both at the BBC and many studios for decades for transcription purposes seems to have passed audiophools by I feel! - Oh yes, Decca when in Belsize Road had Techie 1200mk2's with V15 III's solidly mounted into their custom work-stations I remember! :)

Back to the Me97XE. Load it precisely as recommended otherwise the treble will tilt down. Used and loaded as suggested, the balance will be flat up to around 12k or so, rolling down thereafter. Unlike many cartridges these days, there won't be a peak up top either.. Used in a low mass tonearm and with orchestral music, you should find a very truthful rendition of the recorded and mastered music - but it WILL sound smaller scale in comparison with exalted pickups which may or may not exaggerate things - the choice of viewpoint is yours to make :)

My choice of vintage pickups is mostly ADC, as they are also neutral and a bit 'free-er' in their presentation, the V15 III with original stylus in comparison tending to reproduce the boosted upper mid of many vinyl LP's rather too well. The 97XE won't be as bad as the better stylus profile should be kinder, as the HE did to the V15 III at the time. The £100 version of the AT120E (not the cheaper lesser stylused AT120E/II) is great in a low mass arm I've found and the bit of sparkle is helpful for iffy 1970's vinyl pressings IMO.

Rambling again - apologies :rolleyes:

A topic close to my heart. I think that for some tastes...including mine...the 97xe is a really intelligent choice. I own a late model Koetsu Urushi, with low mileage and in as new condition. It sounds good, but whether it really can be said to be 'better' that a Shure 97 is debatable. This is a heretical statement of course, which challenges a lot of commercial interests and a lot of received opinions. Also, it is crucially dependant on the set-up used. I only bought the Shure as a cheap cartridge for my nice old Transcriptor Reference; used in that (with the original Fluid arm ) the 97 sounded just what I expected, inoffensive and warm, but also bland and lacking in dynamics.
But then, out of curiosity, I put the 97xe into my main deck...a big SME with SME V12 arm. The Shure was utterly transformed, sounding full of life, smooth, powerful and dynamic. I was astonished, especially as a comparison with the Koetsu had the Shure offering serious competition.
Audio people think I must be imaging things...until they hear the V12/Shure combination (into an Aurasound Vida LCR phonostage). Then they look a bit puzzled at the sheer quality of sound. You can see them struggling to come to terms with something that challenges deeply held beliefs about the audio hierarchy.
One further point: I told my experience to someone who sells a very large number of high-end cartridges. He smiled, and said, 'of course, many modern moving coil cartridges are just plain poor.'. Further, America's largest turntable company, VPI, uses the 97xe in many demos, even with their $30000 new deck. I know most people will find all this unbelievable, and they might come to a quite different conclusion (this is audio!) but I think many things we assume need to be thoroughly tested. Anyway, that's my experience of the matter. And by the way, I've sold my Koetsu. I won't be returning to expensive moving coils in a hurry, and over the years I have had a great many of them. none of this was what I expected. You live and learn. ( or not!)
Apologies if this all sounds outrageous, if I hadn't experienced this for myself I wouldn't have believed it either.

Good post. Slightly off topic I must say I read reviews about the latest, greatest MC and then look at the rising frequency response. Is it any wonder that turntables/carts can sound so dramatically different compared to say different CD players? I know AoS is about the subjective listening experience but if I were to spend even several hundred pounds on a cart I at least expect a fairly flat frequency response. Back to the 97xe, I really need to make time to set this up, especially after Paskinn's post. One thing that has been putting me off has been the profile of the stylus, which under a magnifying glass, looks rather crude.

As has been pointed-out, you do need to give the Shure some hours to run-in; initially I found it rather prone to emphasise noise. But that issue went away. It tracks well too so I doubt there is much wrong with the elliptical stylus. Even if your conclusions are quite different to mine, the Shure is cheap enough to always be a good 'reserve.' There may be better moving magnets, but I don't have the personal experience to say that.
What I will say is that, well set-up in a good arm, the Shure is highly capable. You do get a slight reduction in ultra fine detail, but in exchange you get a more natural (to my ears) top end, without the rising treble which does indeed feature in most (not all) MCs. It's a choice .....but you can be comparing a £70 cartridge with a £4000 unit, and, again to my ears, the result is not a clear victory for expensive cartridges. Maybe I just have bad judgement.

My current set up is my TT into my Pioneer amps phono input, so no phono stage. So how do I know what the loading would be and how do I adjust, short of buying a phOno stage?

You most likely cannot adjust the phono settings in your amp but I wouldn't worry about this unless you start using low output MCs.

I have swapped my Benz Micro back in and there is a significant difference, almost like a veil has been lifted! I am taking the Shure on holiday, as the holiday cottage we have booked has a turntable and I am gonna give it a play there and see if a few more hours opens things up. Hopefully the Jilco stylus will have arrived when I get back and I will be very interested to hear how it sounds after that. Will report back. Many thanks for the helpful posts, has made me think that there is much more to come from this cart.!

This is one of those 'philosophical' points, was a 'veil' lifted or does the average mc just over-emphasise upper mid and treble detail? Of course, there is no 'correct' answer. But I find that the Shure (assuming a first-class arm and deck) sounds more like the sound I hear from live music, less like the slightly artificial sound which can constitute 'hi fi.' Clearly, there are plenty of people who don't agree!

For some odd reason i keep going switching back to my Shure 'M95' Cart with 'HE' Styli, i prefer it to my 'V15/III'.. Never tried a '97' i just don't like the look of them!

I've finally installed and had a quick listen to my M97XE. It sounds promising but hope to find some time this weekend and will report back. Yes, the angle of the cart in the headshell is odd. Peter, how have you aligned VTA - by arm tube or bottom of the cart?

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Originally Posted by rubber duck

I've finally installed and had a quick listen to my M97XE. It sounds promising but hope to find some time this weekend and will report back. Yes, the angle of the cart in the headshell is odd. Peter, how have you aligned VTA - by arm tube or bottom of the cart?

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I do it by arm tube, visually, with the back of the arm just very, very slightly 'down,' The other issue is capacitance, which we are told can matter. To be honest, it's not easy to measure (what's the capacitance of your arm wiring, cable and phono input?) so I just hope for the best, and it seems fine to my ears. There are devices that can measure it all, but who's got the time or contacts? I also use the brush down (with weight adjusted to compensate) because I use a 12 inch arm with 15gms mass, and the brush takes care of compliance issues.

I've had a few M97xe cartridges and have never liked them. They are sensitive to capacitance loading I've found and can sound very dull and lifeless. The main concern has been quality control. Cantilever on one was out of line and the other had loose plastic casing...really poor imho.

I prefer both the M95He and the V15III by a big margin. A used 95He is to my mind a far better bet (in good condition). V15III great and with a Jico SAS stylus, or a NOS Microridge stylus, pretty stunning.

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Originally Posted by paskinn

This is one of those 'philosophical' points, was a 'veil' lifted or does the average mc just over-emphasise upper mid and treble detail? Of course, there is no 'correct' answer. But I find that the Shure (assuming a first-class arm and deck) sounds more like the sound I hear from live music, less like the slightly artificial sound which can constitute 'hi fi.' Clearly, there are plenty of people who don't agree!

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Agreed, it is perhaps one of the characteristics of HiFi and fora like this that we are not all going to have the same view. And thank goodness for that!

For me the Shure sounded a little dull, perhaps it is a capacitance issue, perhaps, my own listening has been tuned to the Benz Micro, who knows? I have the Jico stylus on its way and so will revisit the Shure when this arrives, should be interesting...

A recording engineer pal of mine (in the AV industry) liked his stock V15 III and found the Jico SAS stylus changed things too much for him, hence my comments regarding the 97 series with SAS styli, which will change the performance away from that intended, maybe for the better? The best V15 III I heard was with an HE stylus. Much sweeter and 'friendlier' in musical communication to me. There was also a MR version of the VN35 stylus but I never saw it listed over here in the UK.

I loved my V15VMR but the cantilever was fractured by accident. I still have it and hope it may one day be possible to patch the cantilever somehow. The sound-field is smaller than a really good MC type and the dynamic range is also small scale in comparison with a really good Decca, but I found everything is in correct proportion. The later V15XMR, VST-V and 97XE are related I think in the body (the styli are different fitting size to the 'original' V15V I think).

Two ways to load a 97Xe. Low capacitance causes a gentle but continuous treble droop which will either give a beefy or dull balance depending on system and personal 'feel' of this balance. High capacitance will keep everything 'flat' for 90% of the range, but over 10k, the response will fall quite markedly.

As for rising treble in modern cartridges, I've been told it's something to do with Japanese vinyl, which has a different composition to other pressings worldwide. The peaky balance favours this *apparently.*

The Jico SAS makes the sound much more refined... The original Super Track style ones are great, proper grit to which many like but I did prefer the Jico.

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Originally Posted by rubber duck

I've finally installed and had a quick listen to my M97XE. It sounds promising but hope to find some time this weekend and will report back.

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Better late than never! It’s taken me a year to finally install this cart, so I’d better report back a little sooner than that.

I’ve now managed to spend a week listening to the M97XE on my rewired SL1210 arm. To my ears, the Shure is in many ways the antithesis of a hi-fi sound. It can best be described as organic – earthy, cohesive and wholesome. Rather than draw attention to individual musical strands and detail like the Denon DL110 does, the sound is rounded, holistic and apiece. The Shure loses some spatial detail, HF extension and air, especially compared to the DL110, which may make the cartridge sound dull in the wrong set up. This was not a problem through my Croft 25 Basic but when I briefly tried a Cambridge Audio 640P (specified at 220pF) the Shure sounded thin and lifeless.

However, the greater sense of space and air around instruments and within the soundstage which the DL110 better conveys could be due to higher resolution or it could be due to a leaner sound which emphasises instrumental outlines and spatial qualities, conveying a greater sense of space and air. I don’t think the Shure is necessarily less detailed than the Denon (HF aside), or at least not by much. I listened into recordings and had no difficulty picking up little details in the mix or soundstage. More tellingly, the Shure is transparent enough to sources to tell you what studio effects are being used and clearly distinguishes between different recordings. It’s the way this information is communicated which to me is the key difference between the M97XE and the DL110 (and many other MCs I’ve previously owned).

The Shure’s fuller bodied presentation (not necessarily warmth) and that loss of some HF extension, sparkle and openness (I’m still working on this) naturally skews the centre of music slightly towards the lower middle frequencies. But the ability of the Shure to reproduce the body behind voices and of instruments allows it to deliver very good tonal realism. Tenor sax had body, bite and a ringing clarity, as convincing as I’ve heard. Piano notes were weighty, and voices throaty, guttural and chesty. Orchestral pieces traded some of that sense of space for greater weight, cohesion, and power.

One thing which surprised and delighted me was the sense of power behind the music, making the DL110 sound lean, harmonically undernourished and a little anaemic in terms of dynamic impact. I was quite taken aback by how much my rock records rocked with the Shure. Underpinning this is a full-bodied bass which, on my SL1210, struck a fine balance between weight, poise, definition and speed. Double bass sounded realistic (not overdamped) and purposeful, and rhythm sections, whether rock, acoustic jazz or electric funk, had a propulsive quality.

At the end of the day, the Shure is not a cartridge which invites careful inspection or dissection of the musical event. Where a cartridge like the DL110 appeals more cerebrally, engaging with the Shure does not require thinking. Instead I found myself constantly tapping my feet and nodding along to music, and before long I was even singing and dancing! Thanks Peter (paskinn) for reminding us how good this cartridge is.

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Originally Posted by Ned664

I have the Jico stylus on its way and so will revisit the Shure when this arrives, should be interesting...

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Where did you buy it from?

The only place I have seen selling them is the manufacturer themselves, in Japan. I assume you will face a hefty charge from customs?

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Originally Posted by keiron99

Where did you buy it from?

The only place I have seen selling them is the manufacturer themselves, in Japan. I assume you will face a hefty charge from customs?

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Yep, ordered directly from Japan. I am still waiting for customs clearance so should be able to let you know in due course the customs charge.

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Originally Posted by rubber duck

Better late than never! It’s taken me a year to finally install this cart, so I’d better report back a little sooner than that.

I’ve now managed to spend a week listening to the M97XE on my rewired SL1210 arm. To my ears, the Shure is in many ways the antithesis of a hi-fi sound. It can best be described as organic – earthy, cohesive and wholesome. Rather than draw attention to individual musical strands and detail like the Denon DL110 does, the sound is rounded, holistic and apiece. The Shure loses some spatial detail, HF extension and air, especially compared to the DL110, which may make the cartridge sound dull in the wrong set up. This was not a problem through my Croft 25 Basic but when I briefly tried a Cambridge Audio 640P (specified at 220pF) the Shure sounded thin and lifeless.

However, the greater sense of space and air around instruments and within the soundstage which the DL110 better conveys could be due to higher resolution or it could be due to a leaner sound which emphasises instrumental outlines and spatial qualities, conveying a greater sense of space and air. I don’t think the Shure is necessarily less detailed than the Denon (HF aside), or at least not by much. I listened into recordings and had no difficulty picking up little details in the mix or soundstage. More tellingly, the Shure is transparent enough to sources to tell you what studio effects are being used and clearly distinguishes between different recordings. It’s the way this information is communicated which to me is the key difference between the M97XE and the DL110 (and many other MCs I’ve previously owned).

The Shure’s fuller bodied presentation (not necessarily warmth) and that loss of some HF extension, sparkle and openness (I’m still working on this) naturally skews the centre of music slightly towards the lower middle frequencies. But the ability of the Shure to reproduce the body behind voices and of instruments allows it to deliver very good tonal realism. Tenor sax had body, bite and a ringing clarity, as convincing as I’ve heard. Piano notes were weighty, and voices throaty, guttural and chesty. Orchestral pieces traded some of that sense of space for greater weight, cohesion, and power.

One thing which surprised and delighted me was the sense of power behind the music, making the DL110 sound lean, harmonically undernourished and a little anaemic in terms of dynamic impact. I was quite taken aback by how much my rock records rocked with the Shure. Underpinning this is a full-bodied bass which, on my SL1210, struck a fine balance between weight, poise, definition and speed. Double bass sounded realistic (not overdamped) and purposeful, and rhythm sections, whether rock, acoustic jazz or electric funk, had a propulsive quality.

At the end of the day, the Shure is not a cartridge which invites careful inspection or dissection of the musical event. Where a cartridge like the DL110 appeals more cerebrally, engaging with the Shure does not require thinking. Instead I found myself constantly tapping my feet and nodding along to music, and before long I was even singing and dancing! Thanks Peter (paskinn) for reminding us how good this cartridge is.

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Jeff, many thanks for your detailed post. I have since reinstalled the Shure whist awaiting the Jico stylus. I am not ashamed to say that I have been hasty with my earlier posts. I am not really sure what has happened but since reinstalling the loss of top end has been reduced. I don't now feel that detail is lost but more that it is simply presented in a different way. I would agree with your all your observations. There is still an absence of high frequency emphasis or sparkle, but there is a great musicality. Your phrase I think was a less cerebral listen, agreed it is perhaps about the musical whole than the dissection of instuments. From such a humbly priced cartridge it is - surprising! Very pleasantly so! Probably not a cart for all but will be staying put for a while for Shure.

Good to hear this Nick. Thanks for starting the thread and thanks again to Peter for reviving interest in the Shure. Another week and following confirmation by several other listeners I have no reason to change my initial impressions.

However, I should report a couple of unresolved issues with the M97XE in my set-up. First, I have not been able to get rid of hum where the Denon DL110 was pretty much quiet. Do you find this noisier than other carts? Second, the Shure is susceptible to what sounds like an intermittent and random RFI, a HF pitch at the threshold of my hearing, probably around 16-17kHz, which lasts a few seconds. I'm still trying to work out if this is more audible during the day time but this is a recent phenomenon which I am wondering might be related to my short but unshielded tonearm wire. The puzzling thing is that the Denon had no issues here.

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Originally Posted by rubber duck

Good to hear this Nick. Thanks for starting the thread and thanks again to Peter for reviving interest in the Shure. Another week and following confirmation by several other listeners I have no reason to change my initial impressions.

However, I should report a couple of unresolved issues with the M97XE in my set-up. First, I have not been able to get rid of hum where the Denon DL110 was pretty much quiet. Do you find this noisier than other carts? Second, the Shure is susceptible to what sounds like an intermittent and random RFI, a HF pitch at the threshold of my hearing, probably around 16-17kHz, which lasts a few seconds. I'm still trying to work out if this is more audible during the day time but this is a recent phenomenon which I am wondering might be related to my short but unshielded tonearm wire. The puzzling thing is that the Denon had no issues here.

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Hi Jeff, I have not experienced any hum nor any random RFI. Perhaps a little more surface noise than with other carts but that's it.

I should mention that I heard Jeff's system with the Shure in last week and it was a bit of a revelation. I understand what paskinn has been saying now. Most importantly, we just had a thoroughly enjoyable time listening to all sorts of things, and with everything we listened to the guts and heart of the music was there. There was some roll off, and this affected various details; the bite of Coltrane's metal Otto Link mouthpiece was smoothed off, but the depth of the tenor was superb; the alienated spacious feeling that Martin Hamnett brought to 'Unknown Pleasures' was sidestepped a little, but only in favour of the dark heart of the music, lending it some of the more primitive feeling that the earliest Joy Division has. I means to get one of those cartridges and put it on my 401. And it will be going through a Croft phono stage too.

My JICO stylus has just arrived! Will be installing and giving a listen over the next few days and will report back. Sadly I'm quite excited!

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Originally Posted by Ned664

My JICO stylus has just arrived! Will be installing and giving a listen over the next few days and will report back. Sadly I'm quite excited!

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Even sadder, I'm excited for you!

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Originally Posted by Ned664

My JICO stylus has just arrived! Will be installing and giving a listen over the next few days and will report back. Sadly I'm quite excited!

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Anything to report? :)

Hmmm, well to my ears there was clearly a discernible difference, the sound was more refined, but to be honest I think the cart lost a bit of its character. Other posts have referred to the 'earthiness' of the cart with its original stylus and I would agree with that. It is a more relaxed listen, tending to be a little warm. Personally, I liked it as it is and I sold the Jico on E- bay. My original concern with the cartridge was with higher frequencies which seemed muted and made it seem lifeless, BUT all that was needed was a few more hours of play and it seemed to open up. Overall, I think this cartridge is truly remarkable value as it is.