Richard's hi-fi ranting 'Room 101'

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Originally Posted by Richard

You can try-ee and if no like-ee it costs yer nowt.

Your thinking is basically right, but an L pad is just two resistors, in this case one is variable. Otherwise the input stage would have to be buggered around with. Lower resistance / increase capacitance reset the gain around the first stage - too much agg, and you can't mess some things without altering the balance elsewhere. The amp is designed to look at a passive pot or switched attenuator, so just think of your active pre or processor as a source. I have a couple of customers with both cinema processors as source and another one with a valve pre (Croft I think) he insists on using and they all seem happy. In the case of a home cinema system there is even an advantage as it give another way the balance the channels if the room is squif. In an active system it is another way to balance the drivers instead of messing with the crossovers.

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Adenda and time for a rant :eyebrows:

We are all trapped into marketing think. It is the plague of this industry. Manufacturers do it to magazines and retailers, retailers and magazines pass it to the poor Joe public, and ego based Joe public passes it to the sheep on forums (the latest version of the disease). AND what is marketing think, well it boils down to three things 1 telling lies 2 embellishing the truth 3 diminishing competitors truths. It is a disease of the western world so I cannot cure it, but at least I can point a finger at the moon and try not to be part of it.

Buzz words - active - passive - digital - analogue - valve - solid state - horn - etc etc etc. People make money from you by misusing and misrepresenting *things*. They are of no bloody importance ultimately!! There is only one thing that is important and that is *your* music and how you want to hear it, as long as it is realised that you will grow up (change) as time goes on. So pedantic absolutes spouted one year come back to bite yer bum and make you look stupid the next, unless you have the control over your ego enough to back out of the cul-de sac you stuck yourself up.

This place and *more* so on other forums, they are being dominated by marketing men, ego based amatuers and the proffessionals, either paying for the privelege at other forums or encouraged here. Is this wrong, no not at all, as long as you have the intellegence to see through it. What I think is important is that we get some balance by getting some *real* tech-ies to talk to you. But they are very few and far between on forums and are mostly one man bands who haven't yet fallen into the marketing trap. As far as the bigger companies are concerned in most cases the guys that know what is what are banned to talk to you as they will just show up the marketing bullshit for what it is.

Rant over.

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Originally Posted by Filterlab

Ahhh, thanks for that mate, I understand now. In my mind it was only a question of gain and overload, but I guess that's why I'm a consumer and not an engineer. :)

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AND you can ask someone who can give a you reply and not have it filtered through a marketing dept.

Our industry is on the edge of big changes. Up to now the customer has been at the mercy of a bullshit micro climate. Information was filtered through marketing depts retailers and magazines and they all have their own pockets to fill.

How many of you realise why UK prices for H.E.Hi-Fi are so high compared with the rest of the world. The need to place advertising in order to get magazine representation, the need to give a 50% (of retail price) profit margin to retailers in order to make them stock your products.

We are one of the highest profit industries around, for every £10 spent on components and labour you get another £80 as contribution to manufacturing overheads, then about another £20 for marketing overheads, then if using a distributor another £40 for his pocket, then the retailer another (minimum) £150 :confused: for his pocket. £10 to £300 - ridiculous. All approx figures.

What is changing it, well the flat earth hi-fi mafia is losing power, the cartels can no longer dictate the way they used to. Reason - customers are finding their voices and finding *real* information, why - because of on line forums and the creation of community. Look at all the people meeting up for lunch drinks and to gang up on certain manufacturers that is being organised on the forums for the Heathrow Show and a week or two ago at Bristol. Real people actually reviewing and recomending product for other real people, and not pretending to be some sort of demi-god who tells you what to buy.

For manufacturers freedom is being given by on line sales, no longer can retailers dictate the terms or decide if a products sells. I remember years and years a go a loudspeaker company who got thoroughly pissed off with being shafted by retailers and magazines and started to sell direct, BUT no web so only advertising based. Well the cartels and the mafia murdered him (his business). Who was it, who remembers Richard Allen? Now to start off you have ebay and if you want if you get a reputation then your own Website. Problem some greedy buggers still want to make the same money but keep it all for themselves so prices stay sky high and still ripping the punter off. But some of the new set ups, one man guys like Beresford and others are supplying the public at Trade Price, so at last Hi-Fi in the UK is beginning to get competitive with the prices similar to those always available in the USA.

Now it is your turn, stand your ground, it is recession time, stand up, don't put up with being ripped off any more. BUT judge who is already giving you a good deal. If retailers go bust too bad. If distributors go bust too bad. The Dinosaur had to give way and so will they.

Enjoyed reading that Richard, I agree totally having been disollusioned by my local hifi dealer a long time ago...arrogant, elitist and talked at me in hifi magazine soundbites and advertising slogans...pathetic. It also strikes me as laughable when you read a magazine review of a product and the following page carries a full size advert of said product. Big up the little man.

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Originally Posted by scoobs

Enjoyed reading that Richard, I agree totally having been disollusioned by my local hifi dealer a long time ago...arrogant, elitist and talked at me in hifi magazine soundbites and advertising slogans...pathetic. It also strikes me as laughable when you read a magazine review of a product and the following page carries a full size advert of said product. Big up the little man.

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There are still potential problems and pitfalls though scoobs. A forum becomes popular, a community is created, so the owner wants to cash in - stick his nose in the trough with all the other pigs. Who does he feed off, well the very elements that caused all the problems in the first place - the retailers and the marketing men - "come on lads £50 a time, the fools are still there to be fleeced" - so someone refuses to pay, will not play the game, wants to see the rules of the game changed, so they are banned and the forum becomes yet another filter for information, another form of sensorship because the *rules* say a banned member or his products cannot be mentioned or discussed - very convenient! Both Pink Fish and Wigwam operate like this, Zerogain does so by proxy because it is ruled by the same people as PF. Though this in ultimate terms is still at this stage a minor irritation, apart from to the small manufacturing buggers like Beresford who are blocked from their customers. For me not such a big problem as I am lucky to have a recognised name and brand with many years of trading behind it. A forums power is its membership, without members a forum is nothing, a forum is not its owner(s), apart from as the necessary function of a school playground monitor. :)

Again if you put up with it you will create the same situation on line as you created with the retailers, magazines and distributors - they can only do it because you let them - then as forums and on line community becomes more powerfull then £100 - £200 etc, the skys the limit, on line adverts and reviews by *the experts* and you end up with another bullshit environment just like the magazines. Human nature is weird, like the politicians, one lot moans and calls the others pigs in the trough until they get their noses in and then they slurp like everyone else.

Yup, I have first hand experience of this kind of nonsense too, myself and another comedic canine alter-ego were 'spoken to' for rattlin' on about NVA on another forum, and the thread was later locked! only to be followed up by ridiculous rumours of back handers and discounts etc...sour grapes perhaps because it was beginning to eclipse a well regarded dealer 'love-in' thread that had sat proudly at the top of the listing for some time. My eyes are wide open these days. I'd better stop here.

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Originally Posted by scoobs

Yup, I have first hand experience of this kind of nonsense too, myself and another comedic canine alter-ego were 'spoken to' for rattlin' on about NVA on another forum, and the thread was later locked! only to be followed up by ridiculous rumours of back handers and discounts etc...sour grapes perhaps because it was beginning to eclipse a well regarded dealer 'love-in' thread that had sat proudly at the top of the listing for some time. My eyes are wide open these days. I'd better stop here.

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It was and is a complete bunch of lies. I issue a challenge to them. If anyone can come up with proof that I gave discount or gifts to forum members for mention of my products I will *give* them a free amplifier. I give discount for damaged or marked cases and they are called second stock and marked so at ebay. To people I trust I have given equipment on loan, and that is it. It is just bullshit excuses for behaviour trying to maintain the trough and its available slurp. Originating from the £50-ers who don't want people queerying their pitch and expedited by an admin desperate to turn community into profit.

Why stop woofy it is time for this behaviour to be outed, or are you scared they will boot you? there you go that is the power being created and why Beresford - nva etc is not mentioned and threads are pulled. They would not dare ban you - it is in the public domain now. Why! because *this* forum hasn't joined the burgioning forum cartel. Where any problems or discussion from one forum cannot be discussed at another - soooo convenient!

I never understood why some forums wouldn't (and won't) let people talk about certain manufacturers' products, whether it be from a consumers point of view or a dealers / manufacturers point of view. It's all hi-fi, it's all harmless and so what if bloke 'A' wants to sell his gear whilst bloke 'B' doesn't, the whole point of a forum is for like minded folk to get together and chat about their hobby.

Obviously there have to be certain guidelines as to behaviour towards other folk, but locking threads for mentioning hi-fi is rather unusual. Not here mates, anyone can chat about any manufacturer, anyone can promote their stuff, anyone can compliment other's stuff. How else will anyone find out about things otherwise?

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Originally Posted by Filterlab

I never understood why some forums wouldn't (and won't) let people talk about certain manufacturers' products, whether it be from a consumers point of view or a dealers / manufacturers point of view. It's all hi-fi, it's all harmless and so what if bloke 'A' wants to sell his gear whilst bloke 'B' doesn't, the whole point of a forum is for like minded folk to get together and chat about their hobby.

Obviously there have to be certain guidelines as to behaviour towards other folk, but locking threads for mentioning hi-fi is rather unusual. Not here mates, anyone can chat about any manufacturer, anyone can promote their stuff, anyone can compliment other's stuff. How else will anyone find out about things otherwise?

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What is the motivation for any behaviour, money - power - sex. It is extremely unlikely the latter is the motivation, but at WW I have my doubts at some of the "bake-off" motivations :eyebrows: :lolsign: In this case the two former but still largely sitting as a *potential*.

Ok, Richard, what's the new thread to be called. Your choice :)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Ok, Richard, what's the new thread to be called. Your choice :)

Marco.

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Up yours Mr WW!

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Up yours Mr WW!

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Mmmm... Can we have something a soupçon less provocative? :bum:

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Mmmm... Can we have something a soupçon less provocative? :bum:

Marco.

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Up your forum

Hahahahaha... Yes, quite. I think I'll decide what it's called later myself! :lolsign:

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Hahahahaha... Yes, quite. I think I'll decide what it's called later myself! :lolsign:

Marco.

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I am sure you will make a much more *sensible* choice than me :ner:

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Originally Posted by Marco

Hahahahaha... Yes, quite. I think I'll decide what it's called later myself! :lolsign:

Marco.

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Dick's Picks.





:smoking:

Right folks, this is Richard's personal ranting room where he can 'let loose' on any subject he feels like (within reason).

This room will be closely but not (necessarily) strictly monitored ;)

Ok, Richard, the 'floor' is yours - enjoy!

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Right folks, this is Richard's personal ranting room where he can 'let loose' on any subject he feels like (within reason).

This room will be closely but not (necessarily) strictly monitored ;)

Ok, Richard, the 'floor' is yours - enjoy!

Marco.

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I *HATE* rhubarb and semolina

The question is, would you offer them to the admin of WW if they were starving? {Titter}

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

The question is, would you offer them to the admin of WW if they were starving? {Titter}

Marco.

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I would always help a starving animal.

:D Nice!!

By the way, I'm going to make this a sticky - great thread. :)

I like this thread. Richard makes some interesting and valid points.

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Originally Posted by Steve Toy

I like this thread. Richard makes some interesting and valid points.

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So you don't you like rhubarb and semolina either

Tell me more of this 'Beresford' please!

Am I looking in the right place HERE ?

???

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Originally Posted by Shian7

Tell me more of this 'Beresford' please!

Am I looking in the right place HERE ?

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Yes.

I've been using one since just before Xmas,making a Perpetual Technologies DAC and upsampler redundant.

Well worth a punt at £100.00 delivered.

As Richard isn't ranting I thought I would.

Hi Fi has been declining and businesses have been going bust, absorbed and sold since the early eighties, the process has been relentless and progressive with periodic acceleration caused by economic downturn or major manufacturing hiccups. In '97 for instance, as manufacturers tried to reduce the costs of CD mechs and adapt them for computer usage, some very unreliable ones were sold and in my opinion they damaged quite a few hi fi companies irreparably. In more recent years more damage has been done by Copy protection, CD's that wouldn't play in CD players did in computers while iPods were in the ascendency. And while all this has been going on, TV technology and DVD players have been making the running.

IMO Computers and TVs are merging because people need the space and just as Youtube is more popular than TV with some groups, adverts are most effective with C3 women and very ineffective with older and usually richer men who, apart from manual menial, are very computer literate and enjoy music.

Because of all these changes, many of which are happening quickly like the move to downloads for music billed as the fastest format change on record, hi fi enthusiasts have become marginalised. I also think that (as do many relative outsiders like us) that many are unhappy with their systems although they don't want to admit it just yet. If you look at PF for instance, many posts describe awful sounding gear and there are also people experimenting with all sorts of technically unsound but fun projects like valves, vinyl and horns. If hi fi was any good, nobody would be talking about it, they'd discuss music instead, surely?

The net result of all these changes for the magazines and the manufacturers is that a cosy little circle remains. A small group of companies, retailers and magazines have cosied up together to maintain a what amounts to a Cartel. I'm sure that it's just happened, that there is nothing sinister about it and that there's no deliberate dishonesty or corruption, just as I'm sure that it doesn't serve the customer well, which is why he's not getting particularly good sound and he's paying through the nose for it.

I see it all changing in the next year or so, not just because Camridge Audio is better and cheaper than much of it, but because Computers (Apple especially) PS3's, Sonos and numerous cheaper streaming devices have made CD players redundant, all that's now needed is a DAC an Amp and speakers, probably 2.1 for TV and movies as well. Despite silly arguments from those with axes to grind, most accept that noughts and ones are all the same and that it's the DAC that matters.

If these predictions prove true then most of the kit to do it can come from discount or online stores and Pro Audio outlets for a fraction of the price of super overpriced allegedly hi end. And they might do, because houses are being built smaller and people are more interested than they used to be in "design", "minimalism" and saving space.

Has anyone experienced a 24" iMac with Elgato TV, Front Row and a decent hi fi? Because they should, Apple (and others soon) will probably revolutionise TV. Instead of putting up adverts and having to watch at specific times, you'll soon be able to buy and watch whatever you want when you want it and you'll soon be able to rent a movie without it being part of a Sky rental package or having to go to Blockbusters or whatever. If all this doesn't happen quickly, it'll damage Movie companies as much as it has Music ones, who've completely misjudged the situation and suffered as a consequence. Rumours are that CD sales are dropping more quickly this than last year.

I know that hi fi enthusiasts may not watch much TV, but these options will affect some just as others will increase computer usage - getting away from Microsoft operating systems and moving better integrated ones with better media functions will accelerate the pace of change.

The future is very exciting indeed, we've never had access to more music or more different types, however, for companies making boxes, cables, stands, add on upgrades etc etc, I think life will get harder still.

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Originally Posted by Ashley James

As Richard isn't ranting I thought I would.

Hi Fi has been declining and businesses have been going bust, absorbed and sold since the early eighties, the process has been relentless and progressive with periodic acceleration caused by economic downturn or major manufacturing hiccups. In '97 for instance, as manufacturers tried to reduce the costs of CD mechs and adapt them for computer usage, some very unreliable ones were sold and in my opinion they damaged quite a few hi fi companies irreparably. In more recent years more damage has been done by Copy protection, CD's that wouldn't play in CD players did in computers while iPods were in the ascendency. And while all this has been going on, TV technology and DVD players have been making the running.

IMO Computers and TVs are merging because people need the space and just as Youtube is more popular than TV with some groups, adverts are most effective with C3 women and very ineffective with older and usually richer men who, apart from manual menial, are very computer literate and enjoy music.

Because of all these changes, many of which are happening quickly like the move to downloads for music billed as the fastest format change on record, hi fi enthusiasts have become marginalised. I also think that (as do many relative outsiders like us) that many are unhappy with their systems although they don't want to admit it just yet. If you look at PF for instance, many posts describe awful sounding gear and there are also people experimenting with all sorts of technically unsound but fun projects like valves, vinyl and horns. If hi fi was any good, nobody would be talking about it, they'd discuss music instead, surely?

The net result of all these changes for the magazines and the manufacturers is that a cosy little circle remains. A small group of companies, retailers and magazines have cosied up together to maintain a what amounts to a Cartel. I'm sure that it's just happened, that there is nothing sinister about it and that there's no deliberate dishonesty or corruption, just as I'm sure that it doesn't serve the customer well, which is why he's not getting particularly good sound and he's paying through the nose for it.

I see it all changing in the next year or so, not just because Camridge Audio is better and cheaper than much of it, but because Computers (Apple especially) PS3's, Sonos and numerous cheaper streaming devices have made CD players redundant, all that's now needed is a DAC an Amp and speakers, probably 2.1 for TV and movies as well. Despite silly arguments from those with axes to grind, most accept that noughts and ones are all the same and that it's the DAC that matters.

If these predictions prove true then most of the kit to do it can come from discount or online stores and Pro Audio outlets for a fraction of the price of super overpriced allegedly hi end. And they might do, because houses are being built smaller and people are more interested than they used to be in "design", "minimalism" and saving space.

Has anyone experienced a 24" iMac with Elgato TV, Front Row and a decent hi fi? Because they should, Apple (and others soon) will probably revolutionise TV. Instead of putting up adverts and having to watch at specific times, you'll soon be able to buy and watch whatever you want when you want it and you'll soon be able to rent a movie without it being part of a Sky rental package or having to go to Blockbusters or whatever. If all this doesn't happen quickly, it'll damage Movie companies as much as it has Music ones, who've completely misjudged the situation and suffered as a consequence. Rumours are that CD sales are dropping more quickly this than last year.

I know that hi fi enthusiasts may not watch much TV, but these options will affect some just as others will increase computer usage - getting away from Microsoft operating systems and moving better integrated ones with better media functions will accelerate the pace of change.

The future is very exciting indeed, we've never had access to more music or more different types, however, for companies making boxes, cables, stands, add on upgrades etc etc, I think life will get harder still.

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So you want to use an anti marketing and bullshit thread to perpetuate it, I admire your gall :lolsign:

The sign of a skillfull marketer and politician is to spin criticism into a way of promoting *your* ideas and products. You are obviously good at your job :eyebrows: Well sorry I don't agree. Hi-Fi was (and will be again) for enthusiasts - MUSIC!!!!! - not products and what *YOU* want to promote. Forget the mainstream, it has gone, the tech-ie wally anorak is going to be in charge again like he was in the 50's and the early 60's, mind you don't get killed by his badges and the pens in the top pocket.

The mainstream industry has been effectively killed by marketing and greed and thankfully people are beginning to see it. Computer products - retail margin 15% ave, High End Hi-Fi - retail margin 100% only beaten by traditional furniture shops 200% :doh: which is why there are so many half price deals. They are still ripping us off. Go on prove me wrong publish your manufacturing cost v your retail price!

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Originally Posted by Shian7

Tell me more of this 'Beresford' please!

Am I looking in the right place HERE ?

???

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Ask Jerry - JandL100 - Jerry nearly got himself banned from WW for saying it was the best vfm dac around. He got a following at WW lots tried it and it became quite a cult thing especially as being an enthusiast he changed it every week (up to Mk 15 and a half now probably :lol:) Jerry found it and the small guy making it and selling them on ebay. An enthusiast, a tech-ie, someone trying to make a living (or probably just some spending money, most of these guys have other jobs) by doing something he loves. BUT no *not allowed*, a bit of grissle in the trough slurp to irritate the pig snouts, so it was spat out and banned to be talked about.

I didn't think I was marketing anything Richard, just expressing an opinion as to the state of the market and guessing what might happen.

As for margins, I've heard it said that Cambridge Audio's manufacturers were previously making computer parts and struggling to make a profit, switching to hi fi has given them 20% and they are offering value for money and a bloody good product.

Aren't the M-Audio transit, the M-Audio 2496 both at around £50 and the Edirol UA 25 at a bit over £100 from major manufacturers good value too?

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Originally Posted by Ashley James

I didn't think I was marketing anything Richard, just expressing an opinion as to the state of the market and guessing what might happen.

As for margins, I've heard it said that Cambridge Audio's manufacturers were previously making computer parts and struggling to make a profit, switching to hi fi has given them 20% and they are offering value for money and a bloody good product.

Aren't the M-Audio transit, the M-Audio 2496 both at around £50 and the Edirol UA 25 at a bit over £100 from major manufacturers good value too?

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You are a re marketing man through and through Ashley, what have you designed or built? You do a good job fronting your company.

Any way this should not lead to personal conflict. I just have an allergy to marketers and marketing. I get itchy nose and start sneezing everytime I read one or meet one. I try to avoid discomfort and disease so I will let others judge.

Ashley, I was mindful of the state of the industry when I thought up the Art of Sound Forum. This place exists to support that industry because your vision of the future may turn out to be true and probably will but I for one hope it does not because such a future does not seem at all concerned with quality of reproduction of recorded music. The market could not care less about quality apart from our little niche.

Richard, businesses often start because an Engineer designs something he fancies and tries to sell it, if he's extremely lucky he'll succeed, he may even create and opening for others to follow, but all too often he turns out to be a one hit wonder and his company lasts only until something else becomes "flavour of the month". Before this happens and while his company has a buzz going, marketing can make all the difference

Marketing provides an analysis of a market and a strategy for entering it, it's a skill and the information is, I think, interesting.

Right now there are enormous changes taking place, all providing more data and all making things more interesting than for years.

iPod Docks are the big sellers right now and everyone is jumping on the Bandwagon or, as the Australians call it, Chicken Farming.

Steve that's because you're an old Luddite and won't accept what large chunks of the population and many Audiophiles have: The iPod Shuffle is comparable with the best CD players in sound quality.

Sound quality does matter and it getting cheaper and more accessible, it's just that some don't want to believe it and others have hi fi systems that aren't able to realise the benefits, or the owners aren't able to recognise good sound when they hear it.

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Originally Posted by Ashley James

Richard, businesses often start because an Engineer designs something he fancies and tries to sell it, if he's extremely lucky he'll succeed, he may even create and opening for others to follow, but all too often he turns out to be a one hit wonder and his company lasts only until something else becomes "flavour of the month". Before this happens and while his company has a buzz going, marketing can make all the difference

Marketing provides an analysis of a market and a strategy for entering it, it's a skill and the information is, I think, interesting.

Right now there are enormous changes taking place, all providing more data and all making things more interesting than for years.

iPod Docks are the big sellers right now and everyone is jumping on the Bandwagon or, as the Australians call it, Chicken Farming.

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Nope, wrong yet again. Read the thread through. What you say used to happen and it happenned because if anything threatened the status quo it was sat upon and killed. For the mafia the lesson was learned in the 1980's too many small companies with great products were appearing, I could list them but there are too many. Well come the early 90's recession the mafia was so established they just dictated the selling terms to the retailers. "You support us and only sell our products and we will give you extra profit" retailer contracts, strictly illegal and against all the free market laws that came in at the end of retail price maintenance. Setting retail prices, killing competition. The reatailer loved it, slurp slurp. The small companies got conned, "yes I will sell you products, give me one to dem" rarely switched on, only used to sell *off*, if demmed then cold and used in incompatible cabling electrical supply etc, anything to make it sound worse so he can sell what he *has to* reach his yearly dictated turn over figures with Linn, Naim, Mission, Meridian, Kef, B & W etc, who could have been part of this ;).

Well most of the small guys went bust apart from the ones that jumped on the burgioning Far Eastern export market, and then that was largely killed by the Far Eastern currency crisis in 1997. British hi-fi industry gems killed by bullshit marketing and illegal selling contracts. Look for them now on ebay they make good money, people are finding them again. It is changing, now adays they can't hurt us, we rise or fall on merit, if the very freedom we have acquired is allowed us by the forum trough snufflers.

In the early 90's there was a trade magazine called Inside Hi-Fi run by Stan Curtis's wife. It wanted letters and rep of the state of the industry, so I tried a couple of times. I have lost the first one but this was the follow up after most of the industry had been killed apart from the exporters.

This was 1992 or 3

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Write Inside

Dear Angela,

Seeing it is not only you but some of your more prominent!! readers asking for more letters in your mag, I thought I would make another attempt at the bubbly. I would like to follow up on the theme of my letter of last year. That letter enticed two 'phone calls, one from Ivor Tiefenbrun explaining at great length!!! his dealer contracts. After I managed to get a word in edgeways I was told if I won't listen there is no point in trying to educate me. And one from Russ Andrews agreeing with everything I said. What this says of the industry or its view of me I will leave open for your interpretation. Apathy rules OK.

What very few people seem to understand is that the so-called cottage side of our industry is to a large extent thriving and a large number of small to medium size companies are exporting like mad. The fact that the restrictive trading practices and pure mismanagement of the retail side of the British Hi-Fi industry has nearly ruined the industry here has forced these companies to do this and in the process they have become an unrecognised British exporting success story. The following is a breakdown of my last years turnover according to country. Please do not consider our position to be unique it probably applies to 80% of UK Hi-Fi companies.

China/Hong Kong 24%
Singapore 5% Taiwan 21%
UK 4% France 12%
Greece 3% Russia 7%
Italy 2% Indonesia 7%
Holland 2% Malaysia 6%
Norway 2%

The remaining 3% split amongst another 7 countries.

When your home market takes only 4% of your turnover you can guess where my priorities lie, though this does give me the freedom to call a spade a spade as I perceive it.

There seems to have been a decision made by a number of leading manufacturers and retailers dating back to the post boom days of the late 1980's that if they were going to have to put up with a receding market place the thing to do was to get a greater share of that smaller market. Hence the poor customer walks into a major retailer these days to be faced with a choice of 4-6 manufactures and these are boringly the same manufactures shop to shop, apart from the valve propeller heads and thank God for them, they are the only spark of originality in the shops today. Well, I would like to say surely it is time for a change, as the recession is no longer with us shouldn't we try to pursue excellence again instead of short term expedience. The whole industry will benefit and the major manufacturers will have to improve their products instead of relying on lack of competition, which must be for the good. In my opinion the like of Bill Hutchinson and Julian Richer in their own very different ways are addressing this and if more independents sat back and took a good look at their businesses and break out of their complacency and looked at who is controlling them, perhaps they will join the battle of expanding the market instead of griping and complaining and acting as new age Luddites.

Richard Dunn
NVA


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Originally Posted by Ashley James

Steve that's because you're an old Luddite and won't accept what large chunks of the population and many Audiophiles have: The iPod Shuffle is comparable with the best CD players in sound quality.

Sound quality does matter and it getting cheaper and more accessible, it's just that some don't want to believe it and others have hi fi systems that aren't able to realise the benefits, or the owners aren't able to recognise good sound when they hear it.

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Will you please start your own thread to perpetuate and practice your marketing skills :mental:

Hello everyone,, tentatively.

It's all a bit complex. I'm firmly from the "Peter Walker" school of HiFi, in that the replayed recording should sound like the original event. Others think that the HiFi set should make it sound good according to their personal preferences. It is the latter concept that causes the trouble. If you will excuse me for a moment, I met and spoke with Julian Vereker personally, over the possible purchase of his bicycle company, and I though he was "rubbish" at hifi. His stuff sounded wrong and had awful engineering, particularly the power supplies. He then said he would sell the punters another Power supply which worked a bit better as an "upgrade". I's my personal opinion that that kind of activity is what has damaged the hifi business so badly. No one with experience and education wants the kind of deal Robert describes and is therefore very wary of getting a poor deal from some hifi dealers.

It's important to understand I'm not trying to start an anti-anyones'-'name' stuff as there are several hifi makers guilty of the same practice.

I replaced my HiFi system recently going from Studer-Revox to AVI kit.

I don't feel that Ashley and his company is anything but "one of us" and does not seek to sell a product which is poor vfm with unjustified claims and bullshit. Many people have said it too cheap to be any good, but I have found it to be very well made, and very good vfm, and to give a very good sound.

Others have said they want their hifi to be more "musical" and "involving", but in this digotal age that is a very easy thing to add if desired. What you can't correct are distortions and colourations, and that is where hifi makers should concentrate together with good, reasonably priced engineering.

Richard I think the situation is more complex than you imagine. For a start What Hi Fi is very powerful in all this. They gave several awards Cyrus recently and I understand that Cyrus is the big seller of the moment and that others of equal merit are doing far less well. Is PR playing a part in this and are they furthering certain manufacturers' causes?

Then there are discount deals done between retailers and manufacturers where larger ones can extract can obtain colossal discounts and then share it with shop sales staff to "steer them". Is this in part responsible for bloated prices? I think this is an are where customers are becoming suspicious.

Manufacturers cannot dictate to dealers and dealers aren't good salesmen, most hand over what customers ask for, therefore they must create a situation where customers ask for their products. Bose and B & O etc can afford to do this but even the bigger manufacturers advertising, isn't IMO, as powerful as Five Star reviews.

Therefore I think it's a cosy relationship between dealers, manufacturers and press that's sustaining the Status Quo, however, because the market is undergoing fairly dramatic changes at the moment, ones that aren't popular with retailers and certain manufacturers, I think we may see things change.

Specialist hi end dealers are relatively small players compared with certain chains.

BTW Richard, I haven't worked out exactly what it is you wish to place in room 101 ?

It would be nice to know who makes/markets what! :scratch:

Other than Richard = NVA, I haven't got a clue! :confused:

I don't manufacture anything, however I do advise on digital music matters to anyone by fee arangement. it's usually manufacturers, dealers or large organisations like churches, or composers and publishers of music.

I participate on this forum as a hobbyist who is interested in hifi and making my own recordings. I do not seek to tout for business.

I met Ashley James because he is the boss of AVI, the firm I elected to supply my new hifi. I auditioned 20 or 30 brands.

AVI are very hospitable and accommodating to customers. Pretty much anyone who wishes to buy any of their procucts may visit the factory to audition and evaluate the items in friendly conditions and get a good lunch included as well. They may also discuss technical details directly with the product designer as well if they wish. I consider this is exceptionally good service and well worth the effort. It's amuch better way of buying the goods than going to a dealer who is possibly only going to push the old stock that he's stuck with or get you to buy the brand with the biggest markup.

It's a refreshing change to deal with AVI IMO.

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Originally Posted by jcbrum

I don't manufacture anything, however I do advise on digital music matters to anyone by fee arangement. it's usually manufacturers, dealers or large organisations like churches, or composers and publishers of music.

I participate on this forum as a hobbyist who is interested in hifi and making my own recordings. I do not seek to tout for business.

I met Ashley James because he is the boss of AVI, the firm I elected to supply my new hifi. I auditioned 20 or 30 brands.

AVI are very hospitable and accommodating to customers. Pretty much anyone who wishes to buy any of their procucts may visit the factory to audition and evaluate the items in friendly conditions and get a good lunch included as well. They may also discuss technical details directly with the product designer as well if they wish. I consider this is exceptionally good service and well worth the effort. It's amuch better way of buying the goods than going to a dealer who is possibly only going to push the old stock that he's stuck with or get you to buy the brand with the biggest markup.

It's a refreshing change to deal with AVI IMO.

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Thank you for proving my point, hi-jacked by marketing bullshit.

Find anywhere I have refered to any nva product, how it sounds, what amazing good value it is. How its reproduction of music changed my life - bullshit - bullshit - bullshit. This thread is about the very problems you are recreating. Go away with your AVI bullshit, I am not giving you any NVA bullshit. If you wish to contribute to this thread stop talking about product. The point is not product it is music and why large elements of this industry is stopping individuals finding what they want. Who the hell do you think you are telling them what to want!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You and Ashley work as a team I have watched you at work at other forums, *I* do not want to be part of it. I couldn't give a toss how good or bad AVI is, you made your decision so live with it, don't foist it on me.

What is going on here is *exactly* what I am talking about, you two have paid yer £50 at the other forums so you have your bullshit freedom, but not in this thread.

Richard - if you've read other Forums you'll know that JCBrum isn't even a hi fi retailer, he's just a customer who likes our products, there are plenty of others but none so outspoken.

I think you should ignore anything relevant to specific brands and comment in a general sense of what you want to put in room 101 or whatever.

I've been thinking about your comments regarding manufacturers "killing" opposition in the past and I'm not sure they are fair either. Ivor was the driving force in those days and he contacted specialists who were being undercut by Laskeys etc and offered them an exclusive on products that the chains would not be "allowed" to sell. They didn't want them anyway and they could see an end to hi fi, VCR's were much more in demand.

Any manufacturer and Sky TV will tell you that dealers lose more business than they gain, so not surprisingly, he tied them into sales training and gave them targets, just as car manufacturers so with their dealers do today. I wish I could do something similar but I can't, I'm too smal,l just as your company always was. It's life and it sucks sometimes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ashley James

Richard I think the situation is more complex than you imagine. For a start What Hi Fi is very powerful in all this. They gave several awards Cyrus recently and I understand that Cyrus is the big seller of the moment and that others of equal merit are doing far less well. Is PR playing a part in this and are they furthering certain manufacturers' causes?

Then there are discount deals done between retailers and manufacturers where larger ones can extract can obtain colossal discounts and then share it with shop sales staff to "steer them". Is this in part responsible for bloated prices? I think this is an are where customers are becoming suspicious.

Manufacturers cannot dictate to dealers and dealers aren't good salesmen, most hand over what customers ask for, therefore they must create a situation where customers ask for their products. Bose and B & O etc can afford to do this but even the bigger manufacturers advertising, isn't IMO, as powerful as Five Star reviews.

Therefore I think it's a cosy relationship between dealers, manufacturers and press that's sustaining the Status Quo, however, because the market is undergoing fairly dramatic changes at the moment, ones that aren't popular with retailers and certain manufacturers, I think we may see things change.

Specialist hi end dealers are relatively small players compared with certain chains.

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I wish you would read the thread, those points have been covered. Magazines are part of the mafia. It is a triumvirate - manufacturer - magazine - retailer. All looking for the easy way to fill the trough. In the past because of what I have talked about in this thread it was extremely expensive or next to impossible to break into, and you have to agree to abide by the rules otherwise you will be killed. So why are they now running scared, well because the tables are turned the power is now moving to the customer, the enthusiast. It is all in the thread if you read it. AND the mafia is running scared, so the usual way is to corrupt those that come in like the forum owners, make them want to become part of the trough slurping, a fourth element. So has it been throughout history and so it will be unless *the person* - *the individual* stands up for himself in numbers. Democracy has always been a bullshit delusion, the constituency sheep to bleet and then be castrated. The web is wonderfull, it is a new and burgioning freedom in all areas, if people understand and create *weight*.

Also you are talking about mainstream, I am not, I am talking about the specialist market, the so called high end market. The enthusiast, the wally, the geek, the salt of the earth, what ever you want to call them. They have been taken for fools, now they have a chance to change it.

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Originally Posted by Ashley James

Richard - if you've read other Forums you'll know that JCBrum isn't even a hi fi retailer, he's just a customer who likes our products, there are plenty of others but none so outspoken.

I think you should ignore anything relevant to specific brands and comment in a general sense of what you want to put in room 101 or whatever.

I've been thinking about your comments regarding manufacturers "killing" opposition in the past and I'm not sure they are fair either. Ivor was the driving force in those days and he contacted specialists who were being undercut by Laskeys etc and offered them an exclusive on products that the chains would be "allowed" to sell. They didn't want them anyway and they could see an end to hi fi, VCR's were much more in demand.

Any manufacturer and Sky TV will tell you that dealers lose more business than they gain, so not surprisingly, he tied them into sales training and gave them targets, just as car manufacturers so with their dealers do today. I wish I could do something similar but I can, I'm too small just as your company always was. It's life and it sucks sometimes.

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Others do it so that makes it right. Sorry wrong. In the early days this industry was its enthusiast not the marketing men. Now you think you have taken it over so you can't even see the wood for the trees, you are so full of it you don't even see the contridictions in what you are saying. All the time those with eyes open are judging. One of the greatest skills of the marketer is to get others to do it for you. All ready refered to in past posts as the amateur marketers, doing your work for you for free - mugs!

There are only two things that are important 1 people who design and create product 2 people who use product - *EVERYTHING ELSE* and *EVERYONE ELSE* is an overhead, an on-cost, something that has to justify its slurp. People will decide not me if you have earned it and they are willing to pay hard earned cash (in this case) *over* 70% of the price they pay for the privilege of supporting a feast of hangers on.

I think it's true that the Pioneers of our Industry like Peter Walker, Arthur Radford, Harold Leak, Gilbert Briggs, Raymond Cooke, Laurie Fincham, the BBC spawned companies, John Bowers and many others I can't remember, really cared passionately about what they did and for a short while, because of their efforts, we lead the world in Loudspeaker design if not amplifiers, but I think it all went wrong as it started to contract in the early eighties. I think the Industry lost sight of it's true objectives and the bullshit took over and it's dominated everything until the last couple of years or so. Now we've all been overtaken by the pro audio sector and computers and things may well change.

I'm afraid that it's utter nonsense to declare that the person (and his mythical customer) who creates something is the most important, for a start he may have no understanding of the market and he may design something no one wants or could possibly afford. He (or you) is just part of a team and unless that's accepted, companies go out of business.

Therefore marketing is just as important as the products creator or the chap that manages the money. Teams of individuals with a respect for each others talents are what work, not opinionated individuals, though sometimes they can sell or inspire things.

I'm sorry Richard, I have no Idea what you are talking about. What is NVA ? and what's it got to do with HiFi ? , I've never heard of it .

My post was in direct reply to Shian7 who said he didn't know who was what. I simply explained my own position and none of it was bullshit.

You seem very cross about something but I don't know what it is.

As far as teams are concerned I would rather choose my hifi from a supplier that I had confidence in, and who would help me when necessary, and I would be prepared to endorse his product on that basis. That's all there is to it.

As far as overhead is concerned, every well run business has "overhead" and to think that all customers should deal only with an assembly worker is naive in the extreme. I certainly couldn't run my business that way and I don't know any other successful person who could, except maybe plumbers and back street garage mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Ashley James

I think it's true that the Pioneers of our Industry like Peter Walker, Arthur Radford, Harold Leak, Gilbert Briggs, Raymond Cooke, Laurie Fincham, the BBC spawned companies, John Bowers and many others I can't remember, really cared passionately about what they did and for a short while, because of their efforts, we lead the world in Loudspeaker design if not amplifiers, but I think it all went wrong as it started to contract in the early eighties. I think the Industry lost sight of it's true objectives and the bullshit took over and it's dominated everything until the last couple of years or so. Now we've all been overtaken by the pro audio sector and computers and things may well change.

I'm afraid that it's utter nonsense to declare that the person (and his mythical customer) who creates something is the most important, for a start he may have no understanding of the market and he may design something no one wants or could possibly afford. He (or you) is just part of a team and unless that's accepted, companies go out of business.

Therefore marketing is just as important as the products creator or the chap that manages the money. Teams of individuals with a respect for each others talents are what work, not opinionated individuals, though sometimes they can sell or inspire things.

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You really are in gobble-de-gook land. Each of the people you mention did not design product for customers, they designed it for themselves, because they were in reality architype customers themselves. People who create products for markets are in delusion and that is when the companies become run by accountants and marketing directors. AND that curruption seems to be the fate of all companies as they outgrow the desire and character of the founder.

Of course the guy who is an enthusiast and a customer at heart does things wrong, that is the beauty of it. That is why Beresford makes a new dac every week, he is driven by the desire to improve it *for him*. Customers are the thing that makes it possible for him to fullfill his dream. Then the corruption comes, he hires an accountant because he has staff and overheads and a government and a council to satisfy. Then he finds that sales need management so in comes the professional marketing man. Bang out the window goes the very reason he started in the first place. So he sells the company and makes enough money to live on comfortably from it and keeps his hobby to himself as he has learned a lesson. And what happens, corporate think and behaviour lives off his reputation for a while and then they **** it up. If the start up guy happens to be marketing or money man in the first place then we get the corruptions I have been talking about so much, he is just using the man with the skill and art of product, who then maybe drinks himself to death when he realises how he has been ripped off, to use the example of one famous case.

I repeat for an enthusiast market, which believe it or not high end hi-fi is, the only thing that is important is an enthusiast creating a product and another enthusiast using that product.

Richard if the market continues to contract It's likely that what you're describing may come about before total extinction, but if we want it to grow and to progress, to further the cause of accurate sound reproduction, then a more considered approach is needed and it'll be a proper and professional company that succeeds, not individuals.

Beresford isn't a good example either because a DAC should be part of a system and has to be implemented as per the manufacturers instructions. Search any DAC part number and you'll find out how to do it, there's no scope for improving it, you can only do what you're told and it's far better value for the customer if does other things as well like an M-Audio 2496 which costs about £50.

What's needed are new ideas, better ways of doing things and ways of introducing these ideas to customers used to far more than a DAC in a Box and it needs a team to do it.

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Originally Posted by Shian7

It would be nice to know who makes/markets what! :scratch:

Other than Richard = NVA, I haven't got a clue! :confused:

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That is the problem Mike, you don't even know who is trying to brainwash you.

A bit extreme, but the subliminal arts are taught in marketing school and NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming) is even sold now as a new age health art :scratch:

Good post Richard. As it happens, tomorrow I am off to South Wales to see Anthony about valve amplification on a small scale reproducing beautiful music.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ashley James

Richard if the market continues to contract It's likely that what you're describing may come about before total extinction, but if we want it to grow and to progress, to further the cause of accurate sound reproduction, then a more considered approach is needed and it'll be a proper and professional company that succeeds, not individuals.

Beresford isn't a good example either because a DAC should be part of a system and has to be implemented as per the manufacturers instructions. Search any DAC part number and you'll find out how to do it, there's no scope for improving it, you can only do what you're told and it's far better value for the customer if does other things as well like an M-Audio 2496 which costs about £50.

What's needed are new ideas, better ways of doing things and ways of introducing these ideas to customers used to far more than a DAC in a Box and it needs a team to do it.

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*My* market will contract into what it should be, what it was and what it should have stayed. The rest will go into Ipods and other gobble-de-gook. The enthusiast will have his valves, his good solid state, his record decks, his DACs and transports, his cables and cones etc - HIS FUN!! and HIS HOBBY!! and by far the most important HIS MUSIC!!

Hopefully the market will split so we don't have to put up with the likes of this *discussion* ever again, we can but hope!