TD150 Converts Vinyl Sufferer

Now then,

My son had given me a TD 150 he'd acquired as a basket case. Only fair really as he had dismantled my LP12 and made all manner of things from it. He had fitted a Rega RB251 to the old Thorens and had tried to get me interested in vinyl once again, after a three year hiatus. Getting hold of Nick Gorham's non-functioning WAD phono clone and restoring it to working order had given another boost to my interest in the black stuff.

The turntable had sounded good on first acquaintance, since it had been a long time since I had last heard vinyl. This did not last I'm afraid. Over the few weeks I've had the TT the things that really piss me off big style about vinyl had begun slowly to reassert themselves and once again my interest interest was on the wane. Nick's phono stage did provide a measure of relief from this, but being a revealing sort of phono stage after a while it was beginning to get me really hacked off with vinyl again, I'm sorry but my SB3 wiped the floor with vinyl in terms of not possessing the characteristics that drove me mad about the black stuff.

You see the thing that really pisses me off with records is not the scratches etc as a good deck makes these relatively unobtrusive. No; it's the insidious fuzz that starts to overlay everything, as the arm traverses the last couple of tracks on a side. Worse even than that is spitting on sibilants and cymbals that go Tfffffffffff. This is, in a way, worse than end-of-side distortion, as it can appear anywhere and is not dependent on how far the arm is from the centre spindle. I CANT STAND IT! Once I know it's there I sit waiting for it and bang goes the musical enjoyment. Digital simply does not suffer from this and because of this one overriding fact, I can forgive digital all of its other alleged sins. With the Squeezebox I listen to music not the sound of records. yesterday I stuck it on random play and had hours of music playing with not a smidge of listening fatigue.

I've had all manner of stylus tips during my vinyl career, from Shibatas to Fritz Gyger profiles and Garrott Bros tips. I've had Shure V15s, Goldring 1042s, Nagaokas, Glanz MFGs, more Audio Technicas than you could shake a stick at, ADCs, Sonus Blues, Ortofons, Corals, Regas, A&R P77s, E77s and C77s...on and on we go. The rush of hearing an "improvement" with one of these cartridges quickly gave way to the realisation that we were, at the end of the day, still left with the same old vinyl problems, just presented differently.

Despite all this frustration I have persevered with vinyl, God knows why but there is something about it that would be capable of satisfying my every musical desire if it weren't for that damnable fuzz and "sssspit". That's the deal breaker every time!

You see, much of the vinyl I have heard at the various fests had, whatever the deck arm or cartridge, spoiled itself at some point with the self-same fuzziness and has reinforced my liking for the digital style of presentation. Nicks SP10/Hadcock and Will's 401 have come closest to not tripping up. The only TTs I have heard that have not tripped up at all have been the various air bearing parallel trackers, so there is hope. But as Greg for instance, on the whole prefers pp amps I still, on balance, have much preferred digital in the form of computer audio. Until now that is

So to the turntable,
Getting the earthing sorted was the first step to noise-free playback but the problems that plagued my enjoyment still remained.

Today I finally got around to making up a new armboard for the Thorens.

I think the original board had been made for a Rega RB250 and as such, it would have been fine; except that the Origin Live Option 1 version of the Rega arm I had was actually the new RB251 with the three point plastic mounting.

This meant that the rear hole for the arm mount overhung the back of the armboard by a quarter of an inch, meaning that the arm could only be mounted by two screws, which is how it had come from our Anthony.

So in order to give the Thorens a fighting chance of changing 30 years of simmering hostility to the vinyl LP, I thought I'd better sort out the armboard. I fashioned a replacement board out of a piece of MDF and moved the Rega mounting hole further round the mounting radius toward the edge and further forward. The rear mounting hole was now well away from the rear of the armboard and the fouling problem was eliminated.

Here are a few pics:

http://homepage.mac.com/scress1958/....gamounting.JPG

Here's the controversial Rega three point mounting in close up. Personally I can't see what the problem is with it but it has certainly raised a few hackles in cyberspace.

http://homepage.mac.com/scress1958/....Thorens150.JPG


Here we see the deck in a full shot. Note how the Rega arm is placed over to the right of the armboard. It cannot be mounted on the centre line due to it being a ten inch arm. Centre line mounting puts the hole too far back on the armboard, which was the problem with the original one.

http://homepage.mac.com/scress1958/.Pictures/cart.JPG

The business end of the arm is a Stanton club cartridge from the 680EL series. I have also a Stanton 890SA club cart but with Nick's phono it had a bit too high an output, which restricted the volume control range on the amp. This lower output 680EL mkII gives a bit more flexibility with the amp volume.

Well after setting the suspension again, fitting the cart and firing up the deck we now have a turntable that can compete and beat the sound of my SB3. The record you see on the platter is an old Jazz Juice Latin set from the 1980s. This was a record I could never get to play without the dreaded ssssssth sound, even on the second track in, a shame as the music is superb.

Well the Thorens Stanton Rega combo sailed through the whole of the first side with not a whimper of protest, sounding secure, rhythmic and detailed. To be honest I was gobsmacked!

I pulled out "The Raw and the Cooked" by Fine Young Cannibals and proceeded to cue up "Ever Fallen in Love" I was fully expecting something horrible, but again the combo sailed through this loud, compressed end-of -side track without a hint of spit or sizzle.

For me this is revelatory. For the first time I am getting a sound from vinyl that I can live with. It does not need excuses making for it. I don't feel that I have to like it because the connoisseurs say I ought to. It is simply doing what it should have been doing all along and playing music without accompanying it with fizzy noises.

Reading a few snippets on the Interweb some folks reckon that the Rega arm is one of the worst arms you could possibly fit to a suspended subchassis deck. It does not work. I have never read such bollocks in my life! The combination of the new Rega RB251 and a Thorens TD150 is quite magical. Maybe it is the new mounting arrangement, who knows? Roy Gandy might actually know what he is doing by changing the arm mounting, after all it is his product when all is said and done.

In terms of cartridges, the Stanton 680EL with its gull-wing mounting brackets and replaceable stylus should be a mediocre performer, but again it sings in this company and tracks superbly, better than the 890SA, which fizzed and spat on a few records, much as the Shure M3D can do. Looking at a few DJ sites, the 680EL appears to have a formidable reputation on the club circuit for its clean, clear and secure sound when playing through a big PA rig. It is not made any more so is highly prized by the DJ set. Genuine NOS styli are still available however. I'm having a couple of spares as I'd hate to lose something that has actually managed to convince me that vinyl can be better than digital.

Quite where this crap about the Rega arms not working on LP12s Thorens decks and other subchassis types originated from, I don't know. I can't help thinking that had I fitted one of these to my LP12, instead of the Akito maybe my vinyl experience would have been more positive.

Steve

I can only add that I loved the old R200 "Lustre" arm, which is held to height with a not hard PLASTIC tapered spacing ring, it being impossible to tighten too hard as the plastic begins to compress. I'm wondering whether the three-screw fixing with a plastic (?) bracket may just give "enough" decoupling with this type of deck, although I've been able to get an RB300/250 to sing alright on an LP12 and before that, the TD160.....

Interesting about the Stanton, as some of these were being written off twenty five years ago. Like you, I have a variety of old MM's and the ADC's and Sonus Blue (in an arm it likes...) have been my favourites (I think my ADC26 stylus has aged too far, as the mid tracking is great but it doesn't like sssssssibilantsssssssss at all at any weght.... I've recently found a replacement unused stylus in my box though ;)

The one cart which totally flummuxed me is the Shure M3D/N21D. The nail on the end of a large cantilever pushed into a flimsy brass diamond shaped affair, which is then shoved into a ghastly looking plastic body shouldn't make for anything, but my God, it makes music without the dull throb of the M3D as standard - a bit rough and ready sure (Shure?:)), but communicative and great fun!. Old LP's may even prefer a conical tip for all I know..

Now for you to tweak the squeezebox sound to open it up more so you can take your musical fun to new heights......

Hi Steve,

What a brilliant write-up and an engrossing read! So thanks for sharing that with us :)

I can completely relate to the problems you mentioned about vinyl, as I've been there too on many occasions throughout the years. It took until I obtained my heavily modified SL-1210 until the replaying of vinyl accurately for me was completely 'fixed'.

Obtaining satisfaction from vinyl, in my experience, comes down mainly to two things:

1) Fastidiousness of accurate set-up. Every parameter matters when setting-up a turntable, and thus everything you may get wrong is showcased in all its 'glory'.

2) Synergy of selected components and how well the engineering of the turntable in question, and the component parts within it, solve the inherent challenges of reproducing music on vinyl accurately - and/or rather how your ears judge the latter to be so.

Although I've heard exactly what you've described that is bad about vinyl on both turntables I've owned in the past and those belonging to other people, it is completely a non-issue with my current T/T, as it possesses the rock-solid solidity and stability of digital but with the 'musicality' of vinyl. The Techy sounds like CD when done well, only with a nicer 'tone', and superior dynamic range when playing recordings which have the necessary attributes.

Cartridges are another case in point. So many, even very expensive designs, get it so wrong musically (where it counts), and due to brand reputation you end up paying through the nose for something which is fatally flawed from the outset, where something much more modest often hits the spot quite simply because it gets the basics right in the music first and foremost without pandering to the much vaunted 'hi-fi intricacies' of blinkered audiophiles.

Your Stanton is a valid example of the former, as is the Denon DL-103, Shure M3D, and a few others, when partnered and set-up properly. Some of the Stanton and Pickering MMs are voiced in such a way that they get the 'meat and bones' of the music so right, such that even when you know it's not the most 'hi-fi' sound in the world you can forgive them their faults and just concentrate on enjoying the music, which is really what it's all about :)

If or when you fancy an upgrade, two cartridges for you to consider would be either one of these:

http://cgi.ebay.ie/NEW-Pickering-XV1...1%7C240%3A1318

or one of these:

http://www.htfr.com/more-info/MR250774

Both have the musical traits you enjoy but add more overall refinement and 'polish'.

Anyway, enjoy your TD150 and, most importantly, the music it makes! :gig:

Marco.

P.S I'll move this into Strokes of Genius, as being a review that's where it really belongs.

Hi Marco,

Thanks for the positive comments and the links
Apparently the 681EEE stylus is a straight plug in replacement
for the 680EL series cartridges.

There is also an 890SA "Hi-Fi" stylus available for the 890 series.
so it might just be a question of upgrading the styli when the time comes...
or sooner ;)

Steve

Quote:

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Apparently the 681EEE stylus is a straight plug in replacement
for the 680EL series cartridges.

---

Yes I believe so and if I were you that’s the way I would go, as the 681EEE takes things onto another level entirely, sonically and musically.

Have fun whatever you decide to do :)

Marco.

Thanks Steve for the very informative article.. Guys keep them coming. :)


Regards D S D L

Hi Guys

It is interesting to me how some of these old cartridge designs from the 60s and 70s work so well in our systems today. From the end of the 70s to the mid 90s, vinyl reply became very political. I don't believe it was anything to do with Ivor T but he certainly did benefit greatly from the hi-fi press obsession with his products. It would not have been in his financial interests to have dampened down the fervour his turntable had generated amongst the so called cognoscenti.

Looking back, it was as if vinyl replay reached a "year zero" around 1982. All of the built up expertise and development in vinyl replay that had gone before was simply dismissed as claptrap after the introduction of the Ittok/Asak.

Not only did you have to have rigid, fixed headshell arms but your cartridge had to have a diamond hard metal body that could be tightened to gut wrenching torque levels in order to get the new sound. This instantly put 99% of existing cartridges out of the picture in the brave new world of the Eighties.

I remember dozens of tales of hapless listeners who had broken the backs of their cartridges trying to follow the "tight is right" rule. I remember Hi-Fi Answers giving away a set of M3 hex bolts that had to be forced through the headshell slots of your arm to get the buggers to work (the standard slot size is still M2.5). I was too chicken to use them.

A lone voice in all of this hysterical rigidity, spikes everywhere and Sondek worship was Ken Kessler, who championed classic gear including the Denon DL103, the AR turntable and horror of horrors, Radford valve amps. All of this long before Hi Fi World was even a twinkle in Noel Keywood's eye. Needless to say Ken was regularly pilloried in Hi Fi Review for his philosophies. In retrospect I wish I had taken more notice of his writings but I was young and impressionable and the "Brave New Word in Hi-Fi" espoused by HFR and Mr Frankland and his cronies seemed much more exciting than Hi-Fi News.

By the early 90s vinyl had become such a chore that I embraced the Compact Disc with open arms and abandoned the black stuff, consigning my 1000 plus vinyl collection and my LP12/Akito/K18 to the loft. I'd fought with it long enough. I just was not hearing what Christ Frankland et al were hearing. I'd spent hundreds and hundreds of pounds and gotten nowhere.

It is only now 15 years after abandoning vinyl that I am getting the sound I remember from my 70s youth; that smooth analogue sound, silky treble etc I'd first heard at my mates house. His Dad had a Garrard 401 with Acos Lustre arm and Pickering cartridge through a big Pioneer receiver and big Celestion floorstanders. Further comment is unnecessary;)

The Thorens/Rega/Stanton combination produces that sound; a far, far cry from the loud, forward, hard, aggresive racket that was the Sondek/Akito/K18.

Hey...forward, hard, loud, aggressive racket. That was the eighties to a T

Thank God we are a bit more open minded these days.

Steve

I owned a 681EEE for some years and used it on various decks and arms - the XLM II trounced it and my Sonus Blue and ZLM out-perform that too.. The Stanton 681EEE sounded dull and boring to me - nothing like the M3D ;). Bluz bros still have new ADC's as well, the XLM III now costing nearly $300.

To defend the K18, the mark 2 version was quite good, the mk1's collapsing very often with no warning - your problem was more the Akito I reckon. The AT440MLa would see it off though IMO. I lose track (sorry..) of AT's range as they have so many cross-over models at similar price points but the 440MLa seems a good value mm and with a stylus that'll cope with most awkward discs.

Currently playing a re-discovered Supex 900E with a still good tip (as checked under a microscope). A bit sucked out in the mid which the BC2's aren't too keen on..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SteveTheShadow

Hi Guys

It is interesting to me how some of these old cartridge designs from the 60s and 70s work so well in our systems today. From the end of the 70s to the mid 90s, vinyl reply became very political. I don't believe it was anything to do with Ivor T but he certainly did benefit greatly from the hi-fi press obsession with his products. It would not have been in his financial interests to have dampened down the fervour his turntable had generated amongst the so called cognoscenti.

Looking back, it was as if vinyl replay reached a "year zero" around 1982. All of the built up expertise and development in vinyl replay that had gone before was simply dismissed as claptrap after the introduction of the Ittok/Asak.

Not only did you have to have rigid, fixed headshell arms but your cartridge had to have a diamond hard metal body that could be tightened to gut wrenching torque levels in order to get the new sound. This instantly put 99% of existing cartridges out of the picture in the brave new world of the Eighties.

I remember dozens of tales of hapless listeners who had broken the backs of their cartridges trying to follow the "tight is right" rule. I remember Hi-Fi Answers giving away a set of M3 hex bolts that had to be forced through the headshell slots of your arm to get the buggers to work (the standard slot size is still M2.5). I was too chicken to use them.

A lone voice in all of this hysterical rigidity, spikes everywhere and Sondek worship was Ken Kessler, who championed classic gear including the Denon DL103, the AR turntable and horror of horrors, Radford valve amps. All of this long before Hi Fi World was even a twinkle in Noel Keywood's eye. Needless to say Ken was regularly pilloried in Hi Fi Review for his philosophies. In retrospect I wish I had taken more notice of his writings but I was young and impressionable and the "Brave New Word in Hi-Fi" espoused by HFR and Mr Frankland and his cronies seemed much more exciting than Hi-Fi News.

By the early 90s vinyl had become such a chore that I embraced the Compact Disc with open arms and abandoned the black stuff, consigning my 1000 plus vinyl collection and my LP12/Akito/K18 to the loft. I'd fought with it long enough. I just was not hearing what Christ Frankland et al were hearing. I'd spent hundreds and hundreds of pounds and gotten nowhere.

It is only now 15 years after abandoning vinyl that I am getting the sound I remember from my 70s youth; that smooth analogue sound, silky treble etc I'd first heard at my mates house. His Dad had a Garrard 401 with Acos Lustre arm and Pickering cartridge through a big Pioneer receiver and big Celestion floorstanders. Further comment is unnecessary;)

The Thorens/Rega/Stanton combination produces that sound; a far, far cry from the loud, forward, hard, aggresive racket that was the Sondek/Akito/K18.

Hey...forward, hard, loud, aggressive racket. That was the eighties to a T

Thank God we are a bit more open minded these days.

Steve

---

In my slightly limited experience with the LP12, one of the ways IMHO of getting better sound, again IMHO is to loosen everything up and add a little compliance. I had a customer bring in a classic Linn set up Linn LP12 and to my utter horror the levels it was all tightened to was completely ridiculous. It sounded poor, to my ears...with typical Linn sound. However after re-setting it up, the sound was transformed and to my ears and others it sounded very good (not fully to my taste, but better than it had been), several who heard it said it was the best Linn LP 12 they had heard. I can't comment really as I have only heard a few and not liked them....but I liked this one.

Being precious with my record collection meant I stuck with vinyl and I am grateful I did. I am glad you have rediscovered the joy of playing "12 inchs of plastic with a hole in the middle"


Regards D S D L

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SteveTheShadow

Hi Guys

It is interesting to me how some of these old cartridge designs from the 60s and 70s work so well in our systems today. From the end of the 70s to the mid 90s, vinyl reply became very political. I don't believe it was anything to do with Ivor T but he certainly did benefit greatly from the hi-fi press obsession with his products. It would not have been in his financial interests to have dampened down the fervour his turntable had generated amongst the so called cognoscenti.

Looking back, it was as if vinyl replay reached a "year zero" around 1982. All of the built up expertise and development in vinyl replay that had gone before was simply dismissed as claptrap after the introduction of the Ittok/Asak.

Not only did you have to have rigid, fixed headshell arms but your cartridge had to have a diamond hard metal body that could be tightened to gut wrenching torque levels in order to get the new sound. This instantly put 99% of existing cartridges out of the picture in the brave new world of the Eighties.

I remember dozens of tales of hapless listeners who had broken the backs of their cartridges trying to follow the "tight is right" rule. I remember Hi-Fi Answers giving away a set of M3 hex bolts that had to be forced through the headshell slots of your arm to get the buggers to work (the standard slot size is still M2.5). I was too chicken to use them.

A lone voice in all of this hysterical rigidity, spikes everywhere and Sondek worship was Ken Kessler, who championed classic gear including the Denon DL103, the AR turntable and horror of horrors, Radford valve amps. All of this long before Hi Fi World was even a twinkle in Noel Keywood's eye. Needless to say Ken was regularly pilloried in Hi Fi Review for his philosophies. In retrospect I wish I had taken more notice of his writings but I was young and impressionable and the "Brave New Word in Hi-Fi" espoused by HFR and Mr Frankland and his cronies seemed much more exciting than Hi-Fi News.

By the early 90s vinyl had become such a chore that I embraced the Compact Disc with open arms and abandoned the black stuff, consigning my 1000 plus vinyl collection and my LP12/Akito/K18 to the loft. I'd fought with it long enough. I just was not hearing what Christ Frankland et al were hearing. I'd spent hundreds and hundreds of pounds and gotten nowhere.

It is only now 15 years after abandoning vinyl that I am getting the sound I remember from my 70s youth; that smooth analogue sound, silky treble etc I'd first heard at my mates house. His Dad had a Garrard 401 with Acos Lustre arm and Pickering cartridge through a big Pioneer receiver and big Celestion floorstanders. Further comment is unnecessary;)

The Thorens/Rega/Stanton combination produces that sound; a far, far cry from the loud, forward, hard, aggresive racket that was the Sondek/Akito/K18.

Hey...forward, hard, loud, aggressive racket. That was the eighties to a T

Thank God we are a bit more open minded these days.

Steve

---

Hi Steve

What you said about your LP12 was pretty much my experience ' so it seems this is a typical example then ' my god i spent quite a lot too .

The mind boggles really .

From The Grave

I thought some folks might find this thread interesting to read, so just pick off the fluffy bits, it'll be fine.

Since those early posts, I've revised my negative opinion on the Stanton 681EEE..

I never particularly liked a "loose Linn," as to me it just let everything hang out too much, but the early 1980's were, for me, a time of searching and wanting to "belong," as it was for many others it seemed. Linn and Naim had a wonderful, post-hippy "club" that we could belong to.

Was it really as bad as the OP made it to be? Thirty years on, I'd say yes, it was...

I'm not a 'great' fan of the LP12 even though I sold hundreds of them over the years up until the 'Great Cull' when I was removed because I could no longer perform as Linn then demanded.

We always sold the LP12 in fair, comparative demonstrations against all manner of other turntables because it did sound good and better than most at that time. For my own tastes I preferred ancient 301's or 401's (yes even in the late 70's), the original Systemdek, Oracle and Tom Fletcher's designs.

But the LP12 did sound good and it was reliable, consistent and straight forward to set up once you had the nack. Some other turntables of the time were very poorly constructed, difficult to work on and very unreliable with no discernable backup. No names, no pack drill.

LP12's right from the original version can still be serviced and/or repaired with spares available from a network of dealers, though nowadays the prices might make you catch your breath especially if you have your LP12 set up by an 'expert'.

They are still very good turntables as a s/hand buy but not so as new because the prices have gone stratospheric and there are quite a few better sounding decks for less money. I don't believe they can be casually dismissed.IMO

I wonder what aspect that people look upon TD150 & please stop refering them to LP12's.

Andr'e, a TD150 top plate is a perfect fit in an LP12 plinth, which makes a very good upgrade if you can find an old one.

The TD150 platters are far closer in dimensions to LP12 platters than they are separate, the motor is in practically the same place and so are the springs, give or take a mm or three. The one thing the LP12 has to its credit from the ancient days is the single point bearing, which Thorens had gone over to by 1973, the "oil bath" perhaps being the main difference back then.

I love the TD150 and like Lenco's, they seem to have sky-rocketed in price in recent times.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DSJR

Andr'e, a TD150 top plate is a perfect fit in an LP12 plinth, which makes a very good upgrade if you can find an old one.

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Nop it's very slightly different

To you maybe, but you're very fussy mate. An old friend, who had done stirling work with his ex-BBC 301, grafted his cheapo TD150 easily into an old LP12 plinth I had to hand and all he really had to do was make a trim piece down the right hand side to cater for the narrower Thorens arm-board. I seem to remember at the time he was using an Ortofon 212 tonearm (the one with magnetic bias correction) and these were almost giveaway in the early to mid eighties.