12-inch tonearm options

Having heard an SME3012 over the weekend, I've decided to go for a 12-incher for my Lenco L75 build. The budget will be around £500.

The only new-ish options I've come across are the Jelco 750L and the rebuilt Ortofon tonearms made by a German guy called Alfred Gerd in Spain (more info here). I've got a 9-inch Jelco at the moment and it's great, but I would like something different... The Schick and Apparition arms look interesting but have long lead times and are out of budget new.

What else would be available around this budget, new or used? Does anyone have any experience of the rebuilt Gerd tonearms?

I was in the same position last year when looking for a 12" arm for my TD 124. I considered those Gerd arms but couldn't find anything about them apart from a mention of a modified Thorens arm on Stefano's site. I've noticed that his prices have increased somewhat over the last year - seem to be about half as much again compared with what they were. Wasn't that Ortofon arm used on a cheap music centre, which is presumably his source?

I know the Jelco is rated but I bought a 12" 750LB and returned it - what I really wanted was a Schick and by the time you've bought a decent lead and heavier counterweight the price differential narrows. l didn't want to wait six months or more and was lucky to find one on German ebay - logical place to find one really seeing as that's where they are made! I knew that if I'd kept the Jelco it would have bugged me that it wasn't what I really wanted and eventually would have been sold for a Schick - buy once, buy right...

Other options I thought about were converting either a Rega R200 or SME 3009 to 12". I have owned a Rega Planar 2 since '78 so if I had not bought the Schick, I would have gone the Rega route - try Speedy Steve?

Regards

Jon'.

Nottingham Analogue have two 12 inch arms which are very good indeed and Funk have at least one. Helius also have a couple.

Thanks chaps. I had my suspicions about the Gerd arms, it seemed a bit too good to be true for an Ortofon arm! Jonathan, how dow you find the Schick stick compared to the Jelco? What carts have you used with it? While I have a Denon 103 at the moment (which should work well with the Schick), I wonder if it does well with lighter or more compliant carts? The damping on the Jelco is useful, from that aspect.

Dave, I'll keep an eye out for the Nottingham arms, they seem well regarded. Funk's arm is a heavily modified Rega, isn't it? The Helius arms are interesting but from what I can tell the 12" versions are special order and would be far out of budget.

What about a "Morch"

The Moerchs look interesting, but are well above budget new and I've yet see one available used.

I have a 12" Nottingham Ace Anna on my 401. It is a wonderful arm and my favourite of the arms I have; there's just something about the simplicity and quality of the engineering that I adore.

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Originally Posted by oldius

I have a 12" Nottingham Ace Anna on my 401. It is a wonderful arm and my favourite of the arms I have; there's just something about the simplicity and quality of the engineering that I adore.

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:eek: Without trying to be rude i should hope it should sound very good at that price and way over budget for the op request

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Originally Posted by oldius

I have a 12" Nottingham Ace Anna on my 401. It is a wonderful arm and my favourite of the arms I have; there's just something about the simplicity and quality of the engineering that I adore.

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As it should, for over £2,000! Lovely-looking arm, I must say. It is a unipivot, isn't it?

Could you not convert an old Hadcock?

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Originally Posted by surayne

As it should, for over £2,000! Lovely-looking arm, I must say. It is a unipivot, isn't it?

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It's a captured unipivot with carbon fibre arm tube. Sorry I didn't see the budget guide but I understand the ace space is a great arm and could be within budget 2nd hand.

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Originally Posted by Mr Kipling

Could you not convert an old Hadcock?

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Could I? How so?

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Originally Posted by Jonboy

:eek: Without trying to be rude i should hope it should sound very good at that price and way over budget for the op request

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There's not a lot of choice for a 12 inch arm within that budget, so it's bound to be s/hand.

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Originally Posted by hifi_dave

There's not a lot of choice for a 12 inch arm within that budget, so it's bound to be s/hand.

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Which is perfectly fine... I'm just trying to get an idea of what might be out there!

Micro Seiki did some lovely and rated arms. I recently bought a vintage MA 202 and it is simply superb on my Techie, comes with on the fly vta which is also a great touch to have. This arm also comes in a long version (MA 202L) I believe it is 252mm so not quite the 12inches you're after but longer than standard tonearm length - There's one here http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MICRO-SEIK...a#ht_779wt_958 in top order. A no brainer for an arm of this pedigree at this price, doubt you'll be dissapointed - Btw, I can vouch for the seller whom I puchased by MA 202 from.

Within your budget I would look for a Denon DA-308. They usually go for between £300 to £500 on ebay.

Good suggestions, but what you have to watch with these vintage arms is the condition of the bearings, which sometimes are seized with age, (and the often rather piss-poor internal wiring and arm cable supplied, which can cause it's own problems)...

Therefore, don't be surprised when your vintage tonearm arrives if it needs a trip to Johnny, at Audio Origami (or Dom at NWA), before it's performing at its best, so factor that cost into the equation, or in fact if it even works at all! ;)

Marco.

I will be offering a SME 3009 to 3012 conversion in the near future. This will include ebony isolation instead of the rubber parts usually fitted, brass counterweights and solid silver int wiring. I just need to get some counterweights made and I'm good to go. New arm wands are made of stainless steel.
The donor arm does need to have detachable headshell.

http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps5b70c259.jpg

That's very interesting, Dom. What sort of cost are we looking at? PM me if you prefer.

I've just come across an SME309 at a decent price. How would this compare to a Jelco 750L or the other "budget" 12" arms mentioned? Should one go for a better 9" arm or a perhaps less well made 12"?

PM sent

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Originally Posted by Dominic Harper

I will be offering a SME 3009 to 3012 conversion in the near future. This will include ebony isolation instead of the rubber parts usually fitted, brass counterweights and solid silver int wiring. I just need to get some counterweights made and I'm good to go. New arm wands are made of stainless steel.
The donor arm does need to have detachable headshell.

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Please can you pm me for a price as i do like the sme arms

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Originally Posted by Jonneville

I was in the same position last year when looking for a 12" arm for my TD 124. I considered those Gerd arms but couldn't find anything about them apart from a mention of a modified Thorens arm on Stefano's site. I've noticed that his prices have increased somewhat over the last year - seem to be about half as much again compared with what they were. Wasn't that Ortofon arm used on a cheap music centre, which is presumably his source?

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Sorry to come late to this: -

Just to counter this ill-founded speculation with actual knowledge and experience of Alfred Gerd's ortofon-based tonearms, which I use on my TD124 MkII alongside a Fidelity Research FR64S.

1) It's simply not true that Alfred's arms come from 'cheap music centres' - no music centre I'm aware of uses the AS212 bearing and anti-skate mechanism. And if one existed then it would hardly be cheap. Can you provide any evidence of this mythical music centre? Just curious as to where this comment is coming from. To repeat, it looks identical to the AS212 I used to own some time ago.

2) To my eyes the bearing/housing is brand new which tallies with what Albert is on the record as saying - that he picked up a bunch of NOS bearings. When they are all gone (and I think he is down to just a few left), they are gone. The arm holder (bolting onto the plinth/armboard) is brand new Ortofon supplied.

3) Albert's workmanship is fantastic, the arm tube's fit and finish is lovely and it is, indeed, utterly resonance free as he decribes. I had him use his top-end cable which is silver-plated copper, not bad but I will probably ask J7 to work his magic on it with come Kondo wire down the line. But regardless, it sounds wonderful with the SPUs (mono and stereo) I'm using it with.

4) I'm in the fortunate (or perhaps not so fortunate) position of previously owning the Thomas Schick tonearm. This was reasonably well made for its original price, though it has more than doubled since its launch and in my view now represents very poor value for money. I used a Schick arm for about two years with my now-departed Garrard 401 and I have to say although it was fairly well finished, sonically it consistently disappointed. The absence of anti-skate was a real problem with some cartridges I tried to use with it (Including a Koetsu Rosewood, which was never happy in it, as well as various Lyras, Shelters and a Ortofon Jubilee). Back to back with the arm I replaced it with, with the same motor unit in the same plinth (an Audio Origami 12in PU7) the Schick arm was hopelessly embarrassed. For my purposes and from my perspective, the Gerd arm is not just equal but superior to the Schick, at substantially less cost.

5) I did consider the 12in Jelco, I've oned the 9in 750 and it was very good, but I'm pretty sure the Alfred Gerd arm is superior to that too. It also looks MUCH cooler.

It really pisses me off to see someone's work criticised like this on pure speculation. Albert's arms are cheap simply because he is a retired German engineer, living in Spain with plenty of time on his hands and a real dedication to perfection. He doesn't have to charge for every hour spent and if he did these would be much much more expensive.

It's not a big commercial exercise for him, he has no plans for world domination of the 12in tonearm market, he merely wants to put some lovely kit out there at a price that covers his costs plus a little, for the joy of it and the pleasure of those who buy them. His English is good enough for communication but perhaps not good enough for the sort of self promotion required to meet the 'there's nothing on the internet therefore I don't trust it' mentality that is sadly all too prevalent today.

Any suspicion on the grounds of 'cheapness' is perhaps understandable, but totally unwarranted. Mine is a keeper for sure. Given the fact he only has a few bearing housings left, there may only be a few more to come in any case. I would say to anyone considering purchase, don't hesitate.

I can't say where Alfred's arms come from, but the AS212 was fitted to a Telefunken "music centre.

I have one, the first problem is the integrated lifting mechanism. With a bit of DIY, a Rega arm lift can be fitted.

I can say I've heard a Gerd arm though, on a plinth I built with a 401, Dennon 103. It was the heart of a very high end system and sounded sublime. It certainly wasn't a weak link. For a remanufactured tonearm, the Ortofon is pretty good value.

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Originally Posted by DiveDeepDog

I can't say where Alfred's arms come from, but the AS212 was fitted to a Telefunken "music centre.

I have one, the first problem is the integrated lifting mechanism. With a bit of DIY, a Rega arm lift can be fitted.

I can say I've heard a Gerd arm though, on a plinth I built with a 401, Dennon 103. It was the heart of a very high end system and sounded sublime. It certainly wasn't a weak link. For a remanufactured tonearm, the Ortofon is pretty good value.

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There have been several models of AS212 over the years. The housing on mine looks brand new to me but there's no guarantee of what vintage it is. It may well be that the early ones were recycled but mine looks NOS. As for the arm lift mine works absolutely fine though it was a bit tricky to set up for the first time. No idea why you'd want to stick a Rega one on.

EDITED TO CLARIFY: Digging into this, it seems the AS212 MKI was fitted to some old Telefunken music centres. it looks like this:

http://pedipsen.dk/Audio/DSC_1667.JPG

My Gerd arm looks nothing like this, the bearing housing looks very similar to THIS model AS212 (the MKII) though with a different mechanism added to operate the arm lift (perhaps by Alfred I don't know):

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/...ieu61/pic1.jpg

This may well be where the confusion has arisen. The arm tube and weights of course are entirely different to the original AS212 MkII. Of course the current AS212 (list price £1500) is a different design again.

Goldenote U312 - lovely finish on these arms ...

http://www.audioflair.co.uk/products...oldenote-u312/

This guy, Miroslav in Stockholm showed a very nice turntable at the Stockholm HighEnd show on the 16-17/2 2013. If i understand correcly it is about an Ortofon which he upgrades and sells:
http://veteranhifi.se/bilder/Ortofon-RF-297.jpg

It is available as a complete player also, based on a Lenco L/GL75:
http://veteranhifi.se/bilder/Lenco-i-ek.jpg
Price around £1300 for the complete player... (without pickup, of course)
The sample that was playing at Sthlm HighEnd had a Miyajima Shilabe pickup! :)

Regards
//Mike

This is a 12" arm, sold direct from the manufacturer. Yes, it is very inexpensive, but someone who's opinion I trust has tried the arm on his Luxman PD-444 (I have the same table) and he said it is a very, very good tonearm. Also, the money saved could be put toward a better cartridge, or you could just keep it in your wallet. I also like the idea that if you decided to sell it, you wouldn't take much of a loss on it at all. Here's a link:

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/ton...8-analog-18701