Speaker Cables to work best with Cyrus 8XP and Monitor Audion RX8's

Hi Folks,
Been tweaking away at my system recently and have come to look at Speaker Cable this weekend.

I currently use Chord Company Rumour 2 but wonder if there is a better cable available in the 0 - £400 bracket for 2 runs of 3m that would tighten up the lower end, whilst removing a little of the "brightness" the system seems to have at times.

I am not a total convert to speaker wiring, but read so much about it on forums like this and in magazines that I wonder if it really can make the difference required so figured you guys, who have similar systems to me, would be well placed to advise.

I have read on more than a few occasions that the Rumour2 exhibits exactly the qualities I am talking about, which has got me wondering...

Stu

I'm not sure many members can be of help as we all have very different systems (from each other!). You have a classic 'What HiFi' system, and everything that they recommend IMO sounds very bright, they must have the dullest listening room in the world! The combination of Cyrus and Monitor Audio has 'bright' written all over it, and in a lively room would be a problem.

First of all I would look at your room, how lively is it, clap your hands in the middle of the room and see. If it is lively your £0-£400 will be better spent either on a different pair of speakers or some sound absorption panels.

Personally I don't think changing speaker cable is going to be the solution.

I'd second that, in the wrong room Cyrus kit driving modern MA speakers can cut through hardened steel at 20 paces, sorry :eyebrows:

I'd avoid any speaker with metal cones as all the main drivers have a very severe breakup in the mid treble which no crossover, active or passive can really remove completely. It's even been suggested that the acoustic output of the tweeter can be enough to set these 5khz or so resonances off. Even the better ones from Dynaudio have this cold and clinical quality which measurement confirms as resonances right where you don't want them. I've not heard a modern MA speaker that doesn't have a hard smeary kind of quality in the mid treble. No wonder so many ex-WHF readers go over to AVI ADM9's with their much safer and more civilised midrange based sounds...

You have Rumour, which is bright and a little bit "silver plated" in sound, as the bassier Odyssey used to be. bearing in mind the quality of the copper used, my advice would be to downgrade on price and look with open ears and heart at the Talk Audio Cable 3, or whatever it's known as these days, which sells for £4 per metre. Kevin designed all the old Cable Talk wires in the 90's and has resurrected what appears to be the old Theatre 2.1 speaker cable, tidied it up with possibly better insulation and re-launched it as part of his Talk Electronics brand. Bearing in mind the hideous prices some firms and dealers charge for something little better if better at all, I'd take a look at this cable, wean yourself off the "HiFi" presentation you're almost certainly listening to these days, and start again - IMO of course :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DSJR

I'd avoid any speaker with metal cones as all the main drivers have a very severe breakup in the mid treble which no crossover, active or passive can really remove completely.

---

This is one reason why Amphion use a maximum crossover point of 1.6Khz (1.2Khz for the Argon2s!) for their tweeters, which means that the aluminium midbass isn't handling 'mid treble' in the first place, nor issues with ringing & breakup.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments

Hi Folks,
Been tweaking away at my system recently and have come to look at Speaker Cable this weekend.

I currently use Chord Company Rumour 2 but wonder if there is a better cable available in the 0 - £400 bracket for 2 runs of 3m that would tighten up the lower end, whilst removing a little of the "brightness" the system seems to have at times.

I am not a total convert to speaker wiring, but read so much about it on forums like this and in magazines that I wonder if it really can make the difference required so figured you guys, who have similar systems to me, would be well placed to advise.

I have read on more than a few occasions that the Rumour2 exhibits exactly the qualities I am talking about, which has got me wondering...

---

If your goal is to reduce brightness without changing your amp and speakers then I would buy this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AVI-S2000M...-/350584845172

Why? Because it sounds damn analogue, has dynamic, full bass and will take a 'sheen' off the sound compared to modern CD players. Not many TDA1541A S1 DACs with discrete outputs about.

Thanks guys, will take all this info on board, although some of you seem to think this system is super bright, and I dont agree at all, I am just trying to flatten off some of the very high end and accentuate the bass attack a little if possible.

A few of my friends are into high end stuff, and one in particular has two incredible systems, one mainly Naim and one mainly Musical fidelity, both with speaker systems that cost more than my whole system, and neither of us think mine is particularly bad at all compared to his, but we all agree mines a little harsh at the top, and lacking attack on the bass.

Of course its all subjective, perhaps we all actually like what you guys call bright. Would love the opportunity to hear some other high end systems like you guys have, shame we are all so damn far apart. :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yomanze

If your goal is to reduce brightness without changing your amp and speakers then I would buy this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AVI-S2000M...-/350584845172

Why? Because it sounds damn analogue, has dynamic, full bass and will take a 'sheen' off the sound compared to modern CD players. Not many TDA1541A S1 DACs with discrete outputs about.

---

Thanks mate, sadly no good to me as I only play Flac, most of which wouldnt work through that.

Off topic though, you do have a PM about your speaker cable. LOL

Stu

Audition some other speakers, what you are describing is classic modern day Monitor Audio! Find a dealer who will let you try pairs at home. MA speakers often sound impressive in dealers dem rooms, but are lacking when you get them home. I have had this experience both with MA and Mission speakers.

BTW the good thing about MA is that as they are WHF favourites they fetch decent money secondhand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DSJR

You have Rumour, which is bright and a little bit "silver plated" in sound, as the bassier Odyssey used to be. bearing in mind the quality of the copper used, my advice would be to downgrade on price and look with open ears and heart at the Talk Audio Cable 3, or whatever it's known as these days, which sells for £4 per metre. Kevin designed all the old Cable Talk wires in the 90's and has resurrected what appears to be the old Theatre 2.1 speaker cable, tidied it up with possibly better insulation and re-launched it as part of his Talk Electronics brand. Bearing in mind the hideous prices some firms and dealers charge for something little better if better at all, I'd take a look at this cable, wean yourself off the "HiFi" presentation you're almost certainly listening to these days, and start again - IMO of course :)

---

With all due respect Dave I would advise a careful audition with the Talk 3 cable, as IN MY SYSTEM it sounded rather thin and certainly lacked bass weight and power. From what I have read from the OP's postings, he has no real concern about what we might regard as inherent "brightness" in his system, but my concern is that he stipulates greater tightness and control in the bass registers which the Talk 3 tends to over suppress in my opinion. Like I said, an audition without committing is advisable in this instance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yomanze

This is one reason why Amphion use a maximum crossover point of 1.6Khz (1.2Khz for the Argon2s!) for their tweeters, which means that the aluminium midbass isn't handling 'mid treble' in the first place, nor issues with ringing & breakup.

---

Getting tweeters to work down to 1.6kHz limits power handling and then the tweeters can harden up in tone if used too low. Not ideal although I do appreciate some companies where price isn't an issue can do wonders. Give me the smoother tones of a "BBC Legacy" style monitor these days - each to their own :)

Thanks for the comments on the Talk Audio speaker cable. I know the original version very well indeed (:eyebrows:) and thin toned it wasn't, generally. If only the later CT "Excel 4" was available again - using 42 decent gauge strands of the best copper in a dielectric which was formulated not to react with the copper over time and presented in fig-8 form instead of the dumbbell "4.1" form which many wives of Sevenoaks customers hated (Sevenoaks sold drums and drums of QED Micro bell-wire, thereby downgrading at a stroke all the systems they sold with this stuff:()

Thanks for all the comments guys, got myself some thick copper cable by "monster cables" that I used to use in a prior system. Been trying them out back to back for the last hour or so on my 3 favourite tracks and I am confident the copper cable beats the expensive silver, especially in the bass atack and power spectrum, which has pleased me greatly.

However, the BIG shock for me is that the biggest improvement to the harshness that i disslike (like a lack of clarity somewhere around the high midrange) came from BOTH cables the moment I fitted the terminal bridge to the speaker terminals so that they were no longer Bi-wired! What's that about? Is it common? I have never run the bridge on these since new!!

Not a surprise to be honest... A lot will agree that bi-wiring adds nothing and can make it worse! However the terminal bridges can potentially be improved on - use a small amount of the same Monster cable instead and see how that sounds...

Those brass bridgers are the tool of the devil. Never use them. Like Alex says make up little runs of the cable and use them instead. On a wider note I would also think about different 'speaks, I have never heard MAs that were not over the top super bright - and I quite like a bit of sparkle. Other option would be a 'warmer' cdp I suppose. Like an ARcam.

Stewart,
Try to get a listen to some tellurium blue, I was running chord oddesay and found the TQ stuff a massive improvement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wee tee cee

Stewart,
Try to get a listen to some tellurium blue, I was running chord oddesay and found the TQ stuff a massive improvement.

---

I'm with WTC all the way here.

By the way, I had a small chuckle to myself when you mentioned your friends Naim and MF systems, some forum folk don't think too much of either brand, not me, I used to have some MF kit, and thought it was OK, nothing more mind! Just ok. :)

MA speakers of recent years (and metal cone drivers in general, even expensive ones) have major problems with the bass cone going mad in the treble and crossover bodges to hide it, which then takes the crossover frequency too low for many tweeters. Apparently, acoustic output from the tweeter can set the bass cone resonance off physically, so not an easy fix. Brass bi-wire bridges are maligned, but all they can realistically do is add a tiny fraction of an ohm to the tweeter input. Gold plating these should all but eliminate this yet still people go on about using wire links instead!!!!!! :mental:

One thing to try is the hifi dave way of connecting up a bi-wire speaker with one single pair of conductors. I've tried this too on my LS5/9's, which Rogers supplied with both XLR socket as standard, plus four 4mm posts added on. Put the positive speaker wire in the treble red terminal, and the return in the bass black terminal, KEEPING THE BI-WIRE LINKS IN PLACE! See if this helps. It probably won't really cure the phasey hash that most MA's seem to have compared to the best passive alternatives, let alone active ones, but you never know.

By the way, the Rumour cable was intended to be a replacement for the stripped-out sounding Nordost Flatline cables that Chord Company used to market as their own until Nordost decided to promote their whole range in the UK.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DSJR

. Brass bi-wire bridges are maligned, but all they can realistically do is add a tiny fraction of an ohm to the tweeter input. Gold plating these should all but eliminate this yet still people go on about using wire links instead!!!!!! :mental:

.

---

What can I say - Every 'speaker I ever owned sounded better without the links. Not a tiny fraction of a difference either. I come on the internet and I find many people who have found the same thing.

I re- wired up a friends system a couple of years back - it was a real rats nest round the back so to simplfy things I single wired the speakers with the jumpers in place (they had been bi-wired). A coupel of days later he says to me 'I don't know what you changed but can you come and change it back?'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wee tee cee

Stewart,
Try to get a listen to some tellurium blue, I was running chord oddesay and found the TQ stuff a massive improvement.

---

Been running Tellurium Q Black and their respective bridge links since mid last week, will write a review as soon as I get a spare couple of hours to put it all into words. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DSJR

MA speakers of recent years (and metal cone drivers in general, even expensive ones) have major problems with the bass cone going mad in the treble and crossover bodges to hide it,

---

Can you elaborate on that please as it doesnt quite make sense. Also, what do you mean by metal cone?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by icehockeyboy

I'm with WTC all the way here.

By the way, I had a small chuckle to myself when you mentioned your friends Naim and MF systems, some forum folk don't think too much of either brand, not me, I used to have some MF kit, and thought it was OK, nothing more mind! Just ok. :)

---

I guess the quality may well be coming from their analogue sources and speakers as both swear by vinyl and both have speakers worth more than my entire system. LOL

Just a sec Stu, your signature says you are using TQ Black.......so where does that come in?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by icehockeyboy

Just a sec Stu, your signature says you are using TQ Black.......so where does that come in?

---

See post 19 ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments

See post 19 ;)

---

Ah!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Macca

What can I say - Every 'speaker I ever owned sounded better without the links. Not a tiny fraction of a difference either. I come on the internet and I find many people who have found the same thing.

I re- wired up a friends system a couple of years back - it was a real rats nest round the back so to simplfy things I single wired the speakers with the jumpers in place (they had been bi-wired). A coupel of days later he says to me 'I don't know what you changed but can you come and change it back?'

---

No reason at all why gold plated brass bridges shouldn't offer greater contact area than copper stranded cable. We do sometimes prefer a toppier sound over a "flat" one in comparison, but the alternative way I suggested works for me and hasn't stopped Dave selling loads of speakers demo'd that way :)

Anyway, the OP has gone the current fave route, so has hopefully got some bass he hadn't heard before and also a greater dynamic range. Mind you, almost anything does this over SA these days ;)

Dave, twice in this thread you have stated that Monitor Audio's tweeter excites cone break-up in their mid/bass drivers; what makes you think this is the case?

Tweeters are sealed units, they don't vent into the speaker cavity- so thye can't set up pressure waves.

The tweeter domes weigh milligrams- so they can't set up physical resonance.

They beam at all frequencies- so there's no air rpessure effects from the front of the speakers.

I struggle to see how a tweeter could ever effect an associated mid-range drivers break up. Only the crossover can do that if the mid-driver is run too open at the top end. So nothing to do with the tweeter itself and everything to do with bad crossover design and component selection- surely?

A bit of A.T.C.F.U.D. to me....;)

Sorry guys, as a newbie to this particular forum the following two abbreviations don't mean anything to me?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DSJR

Mind you, almost anything does this over SA these days ;)

---

SA?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YNWaN

A bit of A.T.C.F.U.D. to me....;)

---

A.T.C.F.U.D ?

Ashley Talks crap- Fear, uncertainty & doubt.

Ashley being Ashley James the marketing mouthpiece from AVI, who would appear to have DSJR's ear at the minute. ;-)

Don't sit on the fence Simon :)

Richard

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sq225917

Ashley Talks crap- Fear, uncertainty & doubt.

Ashley being Ashley James the marketing mouthpiece from AVI, who would appear to have DSJR's ear at the minute. ;-)

---

That's grossly unfair. Ashley spins the real truth right out to suit his products. Also, I was recently threatened with a ban on their forum and my posts deleted because I happen to intensely dislike the balance of many recent AVI passive speakers, giving documented proof* in the case of two of them and happened to say out loud that I thought the ADM9 had little to no bass (the latest incarnation appear far better in this I understand).

The "research" into the metal cone driver possibly being excited to resonate by acoustic output of the tweeter was dine by Derek Hughes and posted on the Yahoo Spendor group. No definitive figures or evidence was submitted, but I am inclined to trust most if not all of what he says.

My exposure to bad metal cone implementation is mainly with speakers where a tweeter is asked to work too far down for it. maybe not so much a problem these days, but ten years ago, the extra harshness was incredible and very difficult to deal with.


* Sound-on-Sound download of NS10 "appreciation," giving full test results of a dozen or so little monitors available ten years or so, including the AVI NuNeutrons and Pro Nines, of which I have a pair. The pro Nines sound like refined Linn Kans and the recently discontinued AVI N5 speakers are like this in direct comparison, if not even worse as they have absolutely no bass at all and a very shrill upper midrange..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DSJR

My exposure to bad metal cone implementation is mainly with speakers where a tweeter is asked to work too far down for it. maybe not so much a problem these days, but ten years ago, the extra harshness was incredible and very difficult to deal with.

---

That's fair enough, so how do we know mine are such drivers and if so, are thus afflicted?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments

Sorry guys, as a newbie to this particular forum the following two abbreviations don't mean anything to me?

SA?

---

That will be QED's Silver Anniversary cable Stu, which won a What Hi-Fi award and dealers sold it by the bucket load, nay cargo ship load! Very 'deeeeetailed' and bright, which when mixed with some speakers (MA springs to mind) could put your teeth on edge - but it was cheap and the masses took to both its price and 5 star What Hi-Fi rating!

Going onto your original question and I know its been discussed elsewhere on the forum and I have chipped in a bit too, but I thought I might add a little more. I have just been reading the thread entitled 'Synergy' and one of the posts made by Neil put me in mind to pass a bit more of my own personal experiences to you? Please excuse the indulgence of this post as its long, but I went through a lot of pain and frustration trying to solve the exact same problem you have. It was this quote in the 'Synergy' thread I am referring too;

Quote:

---

(1) A good example would be mixing Cyrus with Monitor Audio - not a synergistic match in my view unless one likes an in your face presentation.

---

Source

My system when I joined AoS was the below Monitor Audio GR60/Musical Fidelity setup (no cracks about the curtains Alex, nowt to do wi' me ;)).

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...m130320111.jpg

I didn't put this system together myself, but was given it for a song by a mate who was moving overseas. I had just come back from living abroad myself and had nothing at all, having sold an all Mission system before I moved, so I was very glad of it. The speakers I fell in love with, more for their high gloss piano lacquer - they looked fantastic. Overseas I had a mixed system with some really sweet sounding B&W speakers, which now I look back were far more to my liking sound wise than the MA's. Anyway, I digress . . . After awhile I began to realise my system was not satisfying me, mostly due to its inherent brightness which became fatiguing to listen to for long periods. At first I didn't really notice it, just that I wouldn't play music all day long or get the enjoyment I used to get. So I had some money put aside and firstly thought about cables and to cut a long story short, went through the same thought processes you seem to be going through. I was also brain washed into believing the front end was the most important part of a system.

So a few trips to dealers later and after going through an assortment of cables at home which they let me borrow (some up to £1,500), I was still left dissatisfied. This tail chasing went on for awhile - I would dip into it, become frustrated and put up with what I had for a long period before trying again. My savings pot was growing in the mean time, so I then thought I might change the CDP an Amp and tried (amongst other things) an all Cyrus front end into some MA 60's at a dealers. Being a previous Mission owner I really wanted this to work as I quite liked the design of Cyrus. I was left alone with coffee, donuts and a stack of my own CD's for pretty much all day long. I was struggling with the sound to be honest and we tried all manner of cables. The most pleasing was £1,200 worth of Chord Signature and Chord mains cables and when I say pleasing, I mean you could listen to them without them grating, but nothing more than that and there is a huge difference between being able to listen to something as opposed to living with it. But I was left wanting and when I got home and put my own system on I found it sounded better than what I had just been listening too. I was considering spending around £4,000 and realised something wasn't right when that upgrade actually sounded worse than what I already had!

I gave up again for some months and also didn't play as much music as it was all becoming overwhelming - I kept saying to myself I know what sound I want and will know it when I hear it, the problem was I just couldn't find it.

So onto AoS . . . I cannot remember who it was (I think it may have been Frank (Effem) who is well versed with cable troubles), who 'suggested' I was approaching the problem the wrong way wrong. For some reason I had convinced myself all I needed to do was change the cables and maybe the front end components to reach my musical nirvana. What did these old duffers know anyway, just a bunch of keyboard warriors with nothing better to do than wax lyrical about their precious 'stereos' (I know better now..... there is more experience and useful advice to be had in here than from any magazine or profit driven dealer).

First thing I did just to dip my toe in the water was retrieve my B&W's from storage and hook them up instead of the MA's . . . what a revelation, they obviously didn't have the drama and scale of the 60's but they sure sounded more musical. So then I embarked on some home trials of different speakers (there really is no substitute for a home trial) and realised I had got the whole thing totally wrong and the old duffers were bang on, it was my speakers that I was unhappy with. Not to take anything away from MA if you happen to like their house sound, but it was apparent I didn't. They also need to be paired with a great deal of care. I understand MA now demonstrate a lot using Macintosh valve systems.

During my trials the most rewarding sound I discovered was from Harbeth, who I had not heard of before joining AoS. . . . I don't want to get all misty eyed about them, but this was the sound I had been seeking . . . for oh so long. I also enjoyed the sound of Spendor and Rega speakers, but the Harbeth's have an ability to move me like nothing else I have heard in my price range.

I have changed my whole system now and I do literally play music all day long, often into the small hours. I have a warm, rich, detailed and wonderfully musical sound that ticks all my boxes - the mid-range is to die for, especially as I favour female vocal. My musical enjoyment is at the same level now as its previous height when I had a PL12D, Trio amp and some JR149 speaker's and that was a very long time ago indeed! Reading Andrés thread about having had enough makes me think maybe I should never have got rid of that system - how much money would I have saved over the years :scratch:

Take from this what you will Stu, but don't just think you can solve your 'brightness' issue with cables alone as I honestly don't think you can, trust me I tried, I mean I really tried and all I got was more frustrated.

Thanks Tim, some real food for thought there mate, I really appreciate your time writing all that down for me.
I realise that when all is said and done, the end sound is down to teh speakers as that ultimately is all that I can actually hear, and the fact is, I do like the system as it is and just want to tweak it a little whilst upgrading components in my current budget.

I trialled these Monitors at home alongside some Spendors and B&W's and preferred these Monitors but am looking to the future and am possibly borrowing some Focal floorstanders from my mate whos system I REALLY like as he is going on holiday soon and said I can loan them for 2 weeks to mess about with. Will report back if I do.

Stu

With all respect, several posters at the beginning of this thread suggested looking at different speakers. Cables will not ultimately solve your problem!!!

MA speakers often impress on their first listen with their forward sound. Also they are WHF favourites as their listening room seems to be very dull, as many things they recommend are bright, especially in a living room.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr Perceptive

Stu

With all respect, several posters at the beginning of this thread suggested looking at different speakers. Cables will not ultimately solve your problem!!!

MA speakers often impress on their first listen with their forward sound. Also they are WHF favourites as their listening room seems to be very dull, as many things they recommend are bright, especially in a living room.

---

What Mr P said!

Depending on the model, Focals can sound a bit like an old fashioned loudness switch - loose bass and screaming treble - BUT - the basic good behaviour of the drivers and superior crossover blending of these, means that they can be fairly easily tuned to suit I found. Bass ports can be plugged/part plugged with foam and the tweeters, since they're so clean, CAN be fine tuned with cables and matching gear. Modern Focals may be more refined again, but this is definitely a start, since if the Spendors were too "lazy" in sound (if so, I understand that vibe :)), the Focals MAY just tick the boxes.

Apologies for coming on strong in earlier posts here. It's just that I've been here and tried to tune systems with add-ons many times and got nowhere. if MA's are now used with Mackintosh, it just about sums it up, since an amp with a nice but characterful full-on weight and warmth used with rather assertive speakers is just an attempt to divert the listeners' attention away from the problems IMO.

Good luck with the Focals and hope I haven't driven you away........