Buying direct vs. through a dealer

{Discussion moved earlier from here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showt...038#post349038 }

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Originally Posted by DSJR

.... but please don't think that buying online means you can have something for a weeks w@nk and then return for a full refund.............

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Err ... I do believe you can, actually! :eyebrows: OK, you have to pay the return postage or take it back yourself.

Buy online -- you know it makes sense! (It really does!) :D

Even buying from a bricks & mortar dealer online gives you these legal return rights! :thumbsup:
Demonstration room dems are often pretty useless - try it at home in your own system and room for a week! Yaay - way to go!

There's nothing wrong with buying on-line - I've done it a few times myself - but in this dispute about buyers rights, etc, let's remember that good dealers, who know and trust their customers, will often allow you to take stock home, without having to pay bugger all!! ;)

Therefore YOU the customer are 100% in control!

When I was building up my old Naim system, Geoff (at Acoustica, in Chester) used to let me take all sorts of kit home to audition first, before buy buying it, including (at the time) brand new £6.5k Naim CDS/XPS CDPs, NAC52/Supercaps, etc, not to mention my Spendor SP100s.

Quite simply, I'd not have bought those items any other way. The same applies today, should I choose to use a dealer. It's a simple two-stage process:

1) Arrange demo at shop.

2) If you like what you hear, then take the kit home for a listen, or arrange for the dealer to bring it round, and you both have a listen over a cup of coffee, and if you need more time to make up your mind, he leaves it with you for a few days. No money exchanges hands.

When I bought my Ortofon ST-80SE SUT recently, from Simon (at Hi-Fi Sound), he arranged for the distributors, Henley, to send me a unit to audition first, which I borrowed for some weeks before making up my mind to buy it, in order to ensure that I was happy with it in my system. He knows that I'm a serious buyer, and so he was rewarded in the end with a sale, just as he was for my new SPU cartridge and Ortofon tonearm.

That's certainly the service I'm used to getting from a good independent hi-fi dealer, and you definitely don't usually get that level of personal service by buying on-line! :nono:

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

That's certainly the service I'm used to getting from a good independent hi-fi dealer, and you certainly don't get that level of personal service by buying on-line! :nono:

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Why not?
I have. A certain ex-member of AOS who is also a solely online hifi seller sent me several amps to try out, with no upfront payment or commitment on my part.
There are other examples I could give of excellent online service.

A good dealer or seller can be found in bricks and mortar establishments or online. There is no distinction, imho & ime. :)

Sure, Jerry, but only if they know you, and out of goodness knows how many 1000s of on-line retailers, how many do?

Say, I'm in the market to buy a new £6k valve amp, and I see one that I fancy on eBay from an on-line retailer (with no shop premises), who doesn't know me from Adam, and I ask him to ship it to me first, so I can have a listen.

How likely is that to happen? :D

Or, since Richard's discussing this on his forum at the moment, someone out of the blue contacts him and asks for a couple of amps to be sent out for audition. What are the chances of him doing that to a complete stranger, without payment up front first?? NADA!

I like to be the one in control, not the seller, so if I can audition kit at home first before buying, without having to pay bugger all in advance, then that's what I'll do!!

I don't like giving my money in advance to anyone, even if legally I'm covered, as it could still be a major ball-ache trying to get it back, if necessary, from someone who is less than honest. However, if I haven't paid anything in advance, then there's no risk - that's what I mean about being in control, and I insist on that way of doing business when it involves high value items.

My view is that, as I'm the customer, I expect the seller to take any risks and do all the running around necessary in order to work for a sale, not the other way round!

My overall point is that you're more likely to get the sort of personal service we're discussing from a 'bricks & mortar' dealer, simply because their business model facilitates it better, and also because trust can be established more easily between both parties :)

Marco.

From Richard Dunn, on his forum:

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See post #36 at AoS.

Surely Marco must have the intelligence to realise he gets preferential treatment.

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Marco was getting that treatment LONG before he was 'known' by any bugger! ;) The dealings I was referring to with Acoustica, and Naim equipment, happened in 2001 - SEVEN years before AoS was born. I was a 'nobody' then. It's the type of service I've always been used to when buying 'high-end' hi-fi equipment, since I first did it, 25+ years ago.

The fact is that ANYONE with some credibility, as a serious buyer, can get the type of service I'm referring to from a good dealer. It's precisely why you pay the extra for their margin. Do you think that experienced dealers can't weed out the time wasters, from those who are serious? It's all about the impression you make when walking through their door!

If you're able to audition kit you're interested in buying, in the comfort of your home, without having to fork out a penny first, then you'd be a daft not to do it, and under normal circumstances, avoid any necessity for a refund. The fact is, if your money is safely tucked inside YOUR back pocket, rather than in the hands of a seller, you're as safe as houses.

Let the seller work for the sale and take all the risks, not you! :cool:

Marco.

Mr Dunn is still talking nonsense on his forum:

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His argument holds no water. His dealer knew perfectly well he runs his own company and has plenty of dosh. The test is for *normal* members of the forum go and try to get this service just walking into a dealer, no bloody way.

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What exactly does "normal" mean??? I've already said that I was getting that kind of service from dealers LONG before I owned AoS!

So, according to you, buying goods direct from an Internet seller is just for 'poor people', and buying from dealers is for 'well off people'? Complete and utter piddle!! :D

Like I said, it's all to do with credibility. It matters not a jot how wealthy you are, as long as you can convince the dealer that you're a serious buyer for the goods that you're seeking to audition, and have the means to pay for them - end of. Any "normal" person can do that. You don't have to be one of the 'chosen ones'! :mental:

And these rude remarks, on your forum towards Alan Sircom, beggar belief........

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How many time do you have to be told before it sinks in, are you deliberately not understanding or is there a motive. For F*CK sake I have been doing this direct selling for 5 years. So listen and let your brain absorb this...

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And:

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If you don't want to be insulted don't talk nonsense.

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See here (anyone who's interested reading): http://hifisubjectivist.com/viewtopi...p=54656#p54656

That says it all about your attitude, Richard. What way is that to address anyone, least of all an editor of a leading hi-fi magazine?? It shows a complete lack of manners and respect. Perhaps in your world being so rude is a normal way to communicate with people?

Your insulting of Alan Sircom, and the inflammatory language that you always use when addressing people who disagree with you (and the havoc it causes), is *precisely* the reason why you were banned from AoS the last time, indeed the same as you've been banned from every other audio forum in the UK, NOT how you portrayed events to me recently via email.

I didn't want to get into a protracted circular argument with you about it, but you've just provided all the evidence I needed. The fact is, you simply don't possess the ability to be civil, during a debate, towards those who don't think like you do. The red mist unfortunately always descends. *That* is your big problem - and it will always be your big problem until you acknowledge it and do something about it!

Marco.

Richard writes, here: http://hifisubjectivist.com/viewtopi...p=54660#p54660

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I refuse to feed Marco's agenda, anyone can pull sentences out of context of the same post or previous posts. I welcome any and all AoS member to come and read this thread in full and make their own judgements.

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What's up, Richard, got nothing to say now that I'm giving you a taste of your own medicine? This is my 'Elsewhere on the Web' ;)

There's no agenda. I'm simply telling it 'as it is', just as you do on The Subjectivist. Alan Sircom himself said that he found your remarks insulting, so you can't argue with how someone else feels! Nothing has been taken out of context. I'm only publishing the evidence that's written on the screen in front of me.

The fact is, as was proven by how you addressed Alan Sircom, your innate aggression and lack of civility (often referring to people as "idiots"), when engaging them in debate on forums, always comes to the surface when someone doesn't agree with you, and when others return the compliment, due to your rudeness winding them up, you squeal and hide behind the "ad hominem" card, although Alan is too clever and too much of a gentleman to fall for that crap.

The fact is, Richard, you frequently twist the meaning of ad hominem simply to suit your own agenda! :rolleyes:

Just so you know, incidentally, the real reasons why you've been banned from AoS three times, rather than simply what you've imagined inside your head - it is this:

1) Your un-abating rude and aggressive behaviour towards other members, simply when they don't agree with you, as was witnessed with your treatment of Alan Sircom, on your forum. Many AoS members have similarly suffered your unjustified 'wrath' and have complained in the strongest of terms. You were banned because of that, and because you refused to comply with the rules set by those who manage this site.

2) Your threatening, over the phone with violence, Chris Frost (an AV equipment dealer), as a result of an eBay dispute with him, involving your published sales. We do not tolerate threats of violence towards other members, and I can publish evidence relating to that if necessary. You were thus instantly banned.

3) As a result of 1), above, and his extreme frustrations with you, Rob (Filterlab), one of the founding members of AoS and a member of admin, offering the (then) management team an ultimatum, that it was either him or you who remained on the forum. Obviously, you came a poor second, and so were banned.

I'm sure that it'll all come flooding back now, Richard.... How many more chances should you be given to return to AoS, only to do the same things all over again??

Marco.

P.S I notice you've gone all polite now towards Alan. I wonder why? :D

Hmm, well, I see this thread is now in my name, but tbh I have no wish to get into an inter-forum punch-up.

I'll just repeat my experience that you can get great service online, and that there can be substantial financial, practical and legal benefits in doing so.

Yes, the personal experience of going into a shop can be good, but I feel certain that there are many folk (me included) who have had bad experiences doing that.
Nowt's perfect.

That's me done. :)

It's funny this discussion has popped us just now; I've bought something online (ex-demo) and I think it's damaged, so have sent it back to the manafacturer to give it a once over.

If it is damaged, do you know where I stand in terms of buyer protection etc?

Have you any expereince of this yourself and what did you do?

Cheers chaps.

To add to the discussion, there's someone on here that's shown me a heck of a lot of trust and I wouldn't have the setup I do without it, I think they know who they are - I owe you a beer mate!

Hi Jerry,

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Hmm, well, I see this thread is now in my name, but tbh I have no wish to get into an inter-forum punch-up.

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There'll be no "punch up" on here. You contribute on the AoS section of 'Elsewhere on the Web' on RD's forum (very well and fairly, I would hasten to add), so what's the difference in me creating a similar discussion platform here, albeit temporarily? :)

The RD part of this thread will be deleted in due course, once it's served its purpose, which was simply to give him a little taste of his own medicine, and outline certain facts for the benefit of his delusions. It's very interesting how he becomes less 'talkative' when challenged somewhere where he has no control over the input. I think we all know what would eventually happen if I joined his site and tried to do the same thing there! ;)

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I'll just repeat my experience that you can get great service online, and that there can be substantial financial, practical and legal benefits in doing so.

Yes, the personal experience of going into a shop can be good, but I feel certain that there are many folk (me included) who have had bad experiences doing that.
Nowt's perfect.

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Indeed - I completely agree, and the sentiments expressed in your first paragraph, above, can also apply when buying from a good dealer :cool:

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

When I was building up my old Naim system, Geoff (at Acoustica, in Chester) used to let me take all sorts of kit home to audition first, before buy buying it, including (at the time) brand new £6.5k Naim CDS/XPS CDPs, NAC52/Supercaps, etc, not to mention my Spendor SP100.

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My mother bought a very modest Naim system from Geoff years ago but was always given the five star treatment. He knew that he was never going to make a fortune from her - she just wanted a simple to use system to sit back and enjoy for her well-earned retirement.

I remember suggesting a speaker cable upgrade to Naim NACA4 a few years ago. Geoff actually drove over to my mum's house, installed the cable himself and also spent time trying some tweaks to the system. All that for little more than 100 quid ...

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Originally Posted by Marco

2) Your threatening, over the phone with violence, Chris Frost (an AV equipment dealer), as a result of an eBay dispute with him, involving your published sales. We do not tolerate threats of violence towards other members. I can publish evidence relating to this if necessary. You were thus instantly banned.

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Richard replied:

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Now quite simply this is libel and a lie, he was threatened with the courts not violence, and it did not "cause" a ban so if Danny wants to take the case if he thinks it is worth pursuing he is welcome.

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No lie, so no libel. The details are here on this thread, Richard, so read them for yourself (and your actions did lead to a ban, because I was the one who implemented it): http://theartofsound.net/forum/showp...&postcount=134

From Chris Frost, on the above thread:

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If you want to try ringing me again for a calm rational discussion then please feel free. I stand by what I've said. But I give you fair warning, be careful threatening people with physical violence over the telephone. You never know if the conversation is being recorded.

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I've spoken with Chris and he tells me that he still has the tape recording, so you can deny it on your forum until the cows come home, but it's your word against his, and I know who I believe... Based on your rudeness and aggression towards people to date, as evidenced on this thread, and historically, I'll let others be the judge and form their own opinions ;)

And you've got a cheek to talk about me! :doh: When the Crossover Network stuff was going on (all old hat now), I was dealing with the trauma of suffering from what would've been a fatal spinal tumour (not to mention having this forum completely deleted by an idiot) - what was your excuse with Chris? Dementia??

Anyway, you've had your ten minutes of fame now, sweetheart, so that's the last time I'll be publishing here what you've written on your forum. Job done :)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

I see one that I fancy on eBay from an on-line retailer (with no shop premises), who doesn't know me from Adam,

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Eh? What? What's going on? How did I get dragged into this?

:scratch:

:D

Hi Julian,

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My mother bought a very modest Naim system from Geoff years ago but was always given the five star treatment. He knew that he was never going to make a fortune from her - she just wanted a simple to use system to sit back and enjoy for her well-earned retirement.

I remember suggesting a speaker cable upgrade to Naim NACA4 a few years ago. Geoff actually drove over to my mum's house, installed the cable himself and also spent time trying some tweaks to the system. All that for little more than 100 quid ...

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Nice to hear. Geoff is a genuine enthusiast, as well as undoubtedly a very shrewd businessman! ;)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Beobloke

Eh? What? What's going on? How did I get dragged into this?

:scratch:

:D

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It's your fault for having a daft name! I'm just a daftee :D

Marco.

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This started with you insulting my wife by email, no one does that...

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I wasn't insulting your wife, Richard - I was sympathising with her, because the poor woman has had to put up with your ill-tempered argumentativeness for 20-odd years, unless you adopt a complete character change when you're in her company!! :lol:

Therefore, the "insult" was aimed at YOU, not her!

Furthermore, the comment was made in private, via email (which you chose to publish on your forum), after I'd reached the end of my tether, having been subjected to an endless barrage from you asking me to prove my version of why you were banned from AoS, which I've since done on this thread, and me seeking to avoid a pointless circular argument and us falling out again, which is precisely what has happened now, so well done!

Quite simply, you don't know when to let an argument lie and simply 'agree to disagree' - that's another one of your many 'issues'. Have you asked yourself why you're always embroiled in conflict with someone, and blaming everyone else for it but yourself?? Think about it!!

Anyway, that's definitely the last time I'll be engaging you in debate, so can waffle away now on your forum until your heart's content.

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

When I was building up my old Naim system, Geoff (at Acoustica, in Chester) used to let me take all sorts of kit home to audition first, before buy buying it, including (at the time) brand new £6.5k Naim CDS/XPS CDPs, NAC52/Supercaps, etc, not to mention my Spendor SP100s.

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Great dealers at Acoustica it's where I got my old Amphion Argon2s from after going into demo some Spendor S3/5 & S3/E speakers, and listening to them get blown away by these strange Finnish speakers that the dealer was enthusing about. I did like how relaxed they were with allowing us to demo equipment & no pushy tactics at all. Pretty sure Geoff is still there...

As for buying direct I don't see how, for example, NVA's model isn't ideal for people with a 30 days zero quibble returns policy if you don't like it as well as trade-ins against the value of the items should you want to upgrade.

In short you get poor direct sellers, great direct sellers, poor dealers & great dealers... so not saying much really am I?!

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Originally Posted by Marco

Hi Jerry,

There'll be no "punch up" on here ... so what's the difference in me creating a similar discussion platform here, albeit temporarily? :)

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That's fine, I just meant that I didn't want to get caught in the middle.

I have been enjoying RD's renewed forum, although once again he is subject to Keyboard Rage, which is a shame.

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Originally Posted by Marco

You contribute on the AoS section of 'Elsewhere on the Web' on RD's forum (very well and fairly, I would hasten to add)

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Thanks, Marco - I'm glad to see you say that.

I think that AOS is the best forum around these days, and I am happy to say so! :)

Not being funny Marco, but does anyone really want to read a "tit for tat" argument between forums?:scratch:
I'd be a bit hacked off it it crept into a thread I'd started.
Its Mr Dunn's sniping at others about people on other forums that leaves a bad taste in my mouth..would never buy from him because of this, even if his products are great.

...its not big and its not clever, and in my opinion AOS shouldn't go down that road.
Why not post directly over on Richards forum instead?


Not looking to argue, just saying dude...

respectfully
gaz.

Having read all he posts and links on both forums I wondered if this was a members only flame war and if I could interest the participants in some lessons in how to conduct a flame war without making yourselves look more foolish than you already do? :)

I moderate a couple of gaming forums largely populated by adolescent males who to be quite frank manage to conduct quite protracted flame wars with considerably more skill, dignity and intelligence than I’ve witnessed in these posts.

One of the great advantages of such flame wars on gaming forums is that the protagonists have the option of doing battle on an agreed map and game mode where matters of honor can be settled without loss of blood, or the threat of legal action.
This would of course mean a period of training in the use of the weapons availible and game tactics relevant to each mode and map, but I would be more than happy to provide the necessary instruction for those interested for a small fee. :D

Hi Gary,

Because I wouldn't get any freedom of speech over there, due to him continually playing the 'ad hominem' card, and twisting the rules, as usual, to suit himself.

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Not being funny Marco, but does anyone really want to read a "tit for tat" argument between forums?

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Yup, I agree. It was a one-off, mate, and now over with, since that part of the thread has served its purpose. The discussion will now be sticking strictly to the thread topic :)

Marco.

P.S Jerry, thanks for your kind remarks! :cool:

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Originally Posted by Welder

Having read all he posts and links on both forums I wondered if this was a members only flame war and if I could interest the participants in some lessons in how to conduct a flame war without making yourselves look more foolish than you already do? :)

I moderate a couple of gaming forums largely populated by adolescent males who to be quite frank manage to conduct quite protracted flame wars with considerably more skill, dignity and intelligence than I’ve witnessed in these posts.

One of the great advantages of such flame wars on gaming forums is that the protagonists have the option of doing battle on an agreed map and game mode where matters of honor can be settled without loss of blood, or the threat of legal action.
This would of course mean a period of training in the use of the weapons availible and game tactics relevant to each mode and map, but I would be more than happy to provide the necessary instruction for those interested for a small fee. :D

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Very good, John. Unfortunately, that won't be necessary! :)

Marco.

Gaz,

Any "robust defense" is liable to retaliate in kind, which often means getting personal. This then involves instant deletion of the defensive post, where the original personal "accusation" remains intact.

I have the sizeable contents of a thread on RD's old site devoted to my suposed "shilling" for hifi dave and "training" Alex_UK to do the same. I've always been honest about where many of my current recommendations on things I've heard recently come from and I think most of "you lot" know me well enough by now to take me with as much a pinch of salt as any other poster on this forum.

By the way, the post about not being able to return online purchases for a full refund was concerning a totally different company with history of this sort of thing, NVA not even registering on my radar - why on earth would it after the accusations levelled at me and others here, such as Mark (Reid Malenfant) & John (Welder) to mention just two. A shame really, as Epping ain't so far from Ipswich...

Anyway, praise where praise is due to honorable online suppliers who care as much for these sales as hopefully they would if they were dealing with the client face to face, as I still think is important for both parties to get to know each other...

Just a shame you had to do that, and deleting posts?
he says other folk have agenda's?
:scratch:

As someone recently expressed to me in private, regarding Richard Dunn:

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I cannot fathom him out at all, never could and am never likely too. He lives in a permanent state of denial and detached from reality.

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That is *so* spot on, especially the bit in bold!

Marco.

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Originally Posted by DSJR

..... By the way, the post about not being able to return online purchases for a full refund was concerning a totally different company with history of this sort of thing .....

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Dave, you were a bit of a naughty boy posting that when, where and how you did, imho. :nono: ;)

It was ripe for being taken the wrong way! :lol:

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Originally Posted by Marco

As someone recently expressed to me in private, regarding Richard Dunn:



That is *so* spot on, especially the bit in bold!

Marco.

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RD is a Keyboard Warrior.

He is a really nice, reasonable and sensible guy when you meet him in person. ... I know, it's hard to believe if you haven't met him ... :eyebrows:

And in his professional capacity as a hifi seller, his customer service is superb and second to none, imho.

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Originally Posted by jandl100

RD is a Keyboard Warrior.

He is a really nice, reasonable and sensible guy when you meet him in person. ... I know, it's hard to believe if you haven't met him ... :eyebrows:

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Is the reverse true, I wonder? Are those who are polite behind the keyboard actually flat-out loons in real life?

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Originally Posted by jandl100

RD is a Keyboard Warrior.

He is a really nice, reasonable and sensible guy when you meet him in person. ... I know, it's hard to believe if you haven't met him ... :eyebrows:

And in his professional capacity as a hifi seller, his customer service is superb and second to none, imho.

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Jerry, I don't doubt that the latter is true (indeed I've seen plenty evidence of it), but doesn't it strike you as somewhat foolish (to say the least), being an Internet "keyboard warrior", as you put it, when you're the owner of an on-line audio business, especially when that business get its customers from precisely the same place as said "keyboard warrior" operates, i.e. the Internet? Shooting yourself in the foot doesn't even begin to describe it!! :doh:

Your reputation (and thus sales) are bound to suffer, as a consequence, even if that fact isn't immediately obvious, as most people will think twice about dealing with someone like that. Therefore, he does himself no favours whatsoever, in his professional capacity as a business owner, with his disrespectful and rude behaviour towards people, which unfortunately he seems blissfully unaware of, or indeed as has been suggested, is in complete denial about... :rolleyes:

Marco.

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Originally Posted by jandl100

RD is a Keyboard Warrior.

He is a really nice, reasonable and sensible guy when you meet him in person. ... I know, it's hard to believe if you haven't met him ... :eyebrows:

And in his professional capacity as a hifi seller, his customer service is superb and second to none, imho.

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:exactly:

As an ex-NVA owner I feel obliged to go on the record here to second what Jerry has said.

People should buy NVA gear with total confidence in the quality of the product and the service you'll get from Richard.

I feel it's a great shame that the gear often gets overshadowed by the endless bickering from both "sides".

Indeed, Julian. The problem is that the majority of the bickering is as a result of the behaviour of the designer of the equipment, not the equipment itself, which is why it is the former, rather than the latter, that is often the subject of criticism! ;)

Sadly, he brings it largely all on himself.

Marco.

RD's insecurities are a product of his dust ups with the big boys way back when and it is obvious the wounds have never healed. Ironically it sounds as if he would be a better retail dealer when compared to his prickly online countenance.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Jerry, I don't doubt that the latter is true (indeed I've seen plenty evidence of it), but doesn't it strike you as somewhat foolish (to say the least), being an Internet "keyboard warrior", as you put it, when you're the owner of an on-line audio business, especially when that business get its customers from precisely the same place as said "keyboard warrior" operates, i.e. the Internet? Shooting yourself in the foot doesn't even begin to describe it!! :doh:

Your reputation (and thus sales) are bound to suffer, as a consequence, even if that fact isn't immediately obvious, as most people will think twice about dealing with someone like that. Therefore, he does himself no favours whatsoever, in his professional capacity as a business owner, with his disrespectful and rude behaviour towards people, which unfortunately he seems blissfully unaware of, or indeed as has been suggested, is in complete denial about... :rolleyes:

Marco.

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Oh yeah - all of that is spot on.

But RD gets more than enough sales to keep him happy - he recently had to shut his eBay shop cos he couldn't handle any more orders.

I do find it curious for someone who espouses the "power to the people" principle of hifi sales and that the forums are a tremendously good and powerful thing and the way of the future etc, that RD pisses 'em all off Big Time! :scratch::mental::lol:

With the best will in the world to RD, the reason he acts like he does online is because he's wired up just a little differently to everyone else. The fact that his products succeed despite his actions is just proof that he makes decent stuff.

He reminds me of the guy in Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy who flies round the universe insulting everybody in alphabetical order... :D

I bought my pre amp and speakers online (the speakers are admittedly second hand) this was after reading up on said products and forming a general picture of what they can do and if it fitted with where i wanted to go.So far has worked a treat for me!!

On the other side of the coin,i went to my local audio t in reading (after vowing never to go back,after been looked at like a piece of scum,thankfully,it was being run by different people) to get some records cleaned after i discovered they had a keith monks machine.
They were friendly,showed me how they cleaned your records,told me alot of things about how records are pressed and we had a good old discussion about various subjects.
It was the kind of service,which makes you want to support your local shops.

When i lived in hereford,english audio allways provided a great service,letting me take things home to evaluate,as they knew shop demo's only tell part of the story.

So either way can and has worked for me.

p.s. After hearing what a rcm can do,I NEED TO NOW BUY ONE :lol:

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Originally Posted by synsei

He reminds me of the guy in Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy who flies round the universe insulting everybody in alphabetical order... :D

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Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged was his name.
He was immortal, but he wasn't born that way, so he had to come up with some way to fill his time and justify his existence.
http://hhgproject.org/entries/wowbagger.html

Hi Jerry,

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I do find it curious for someone who espouses the "power to the people" principle of hifi sales and that the forums are a tremendously good and powerful thing and the way of the future etc, that RD pisses 'em all off Big Time!

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Indeed - I suspect it's just simply envy. Let's face it, Richard would love his forum to have the captive audience of 'the big 3', but he knows that it'll never happen, as he's his own worst enemy. The fact is, some of us are able to learn from our mistakes and change, whereas others are too pig-headed and stubborn to admit to their faults and address them, thus consigning themselves to a rather lonely and unfulfilled existence, compared with what could've been...

Also, he keeps bringing up the Crossover Network thing, as if it somehow aids his defence. Yes, I lost the plot big time (my head was in a very bad place then), and yes I'm not proud at all of what I wrote years ago in an email to a well-known and universally hated forum troublemaker, whose son had just hacked into and trashed this site, and with it years of work, but the big difference is that, for me, that was a one off, and completely against my normal nature, as anyone who knows me well would confirm.

Whereas with Richard, whilst he hasn't been caught in public yet being quite as nasty to anyone (although his malevolent treatment of Chris Frost indicates what he's really capable of), makes up for it by continually being rude and aggressive to anyone whom he feels deserves it - and worse, seems to consider it as normal behaviour :rolleyes: This was witnessed only the other day with his disgraceful treatment of Alan Sircom, who I doubt will be back again to grace his site.

If Richard had only handled Alan properly, it might have given his forum some much needed credibility, but again he demonstrated his innate predisposition towards conflict (always just bubbling under the surface and ready to explode), complete lack of empathy towards others of a different mindset, and a commercial short-sightedness that beggared belief.

In any case, if I was genuinely as bad a person as what I wrote in that email suggests, shown on The Crossover Network, then I'd be sitting on a forum now with about 6 active members, largely talking to myself, just like Richard is, and creating more enemies by the day, rather than somewhere like here, surrounded by many good friends and like-minded people! ;)

Marco.

Isn't discussion of banned members against the AoS AUP?

Hi Joe,

Normally, yes, but Richard is an exception, as most banned members don't have their own forum with a specific section dedicated to slagging off this forum and me (amongst others). Therefore, he has ample 'right of reply' on his own little platform, the contents of which are usually ignored, but on this occasion I decided that certain remarks needed to be addressed, including now this:

Quote:

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I still have a collection of emails from back then right up to the moment he put me on his blocked list last week, what I should do is just publish them and let people see if he has changed and the TXN thing was an aberration, but I can't be bothered.

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What he *actually* means is that publishing them would provide nothing other than blatant evidence of his appallingly antagonistic nature, living in denial of the truth, amazing ability to deliberately misconstrue what's written in front of him, and finally, me trying hard to avoid further circular argument and a serious fall out (which is what eventually happened), and his failure simply to 'agree to disagree' and just let an argument lie, after a series of frank, but perfectly polite, exchanges of opinions. There is not one single threat from me contained in any RECENT email I've sent to him.

So publish away, Richard - you'll only make yourself look more stupid than you have already!

In fact, just to show that I have nothing whatsoever to hide, if anyone here is remotely interested in reading the dialogue in question, PM me, and I'll forward the whole recent email exchange, between Richard and me, directly from my email account to theirs (so that I can't tamper with the content in any way), and if they can find any threatening or abusive behaviour towards him from me, I'll gladly give them £500!! :cool:

Marco.

Fair enough. In that case, I won't report you to the mods.

Pheew... Thanks! :D

Marco.

You dodged a bullet there, Marco ;)

Lol... The delusions of Mr Dunn are getting even better:

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One of those with a similar inbox is a member here in Dave Cawley, who he tried to commercially assassinate...

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I've not been in contact with DC for well over a year (or more, I'd need to check), so that doesn't count. We're talking about RECENT emails I've sent, which are supposed to prove that I haven't changed, in terms of my threatening behaviour. Furthermore, anyone that's read the relevant threads on AoS, and also knows what went on behind the scenes, knows exactly why DC received the (justified) treatment he did.

I also haven't been in contact with Steve Toy, for well over a year.

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...and the other his ex partner in the forum Steve Toy who he tricked and manipulated off so he could have all the perceived power for himself.

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Ha - that's truly hilarious, complete nonsense, and simply what YOU would like to believe. If anyone's interested in the truth of the matter, simply contact any of the mods here, who at the time were directly involved in the situation, and they'll gladly provide it.

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So he managed to ban one of the founders of his AoS as soon as he bought him out for a pittance - one sick little man.

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More nonsense and simply what you've made up in your head, based on the scantest of information. A classic case of putting two and two together and coming up with six! :mental:

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Then there is the other founder partner Filterlab who doesn't seem to want to or maybe dare post again.

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Again, we enter the realms of another fable. Honestly, if anyone's remotely interested in knowing the truth about any of these matters, it can very easily be proved.

Marco.

He doesn't know when to give up, does he?

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Edit:- again due to comments. The information about what happened to Steve Toy came from Steve Toy. Why do you think he is so angry at not being able to reverse the ban.

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So, Richard, you're simply taking one person's side of a dispute as gospel? You can be really stupid sometimes. Naturally, Steve's Toy's version of events is going to be heavily biased towards Steve Toy! (To suit his own agenda at the time).

Don't get a job as a Police interviewer because you'll never solve any crimes! :D

Incidentally, in reference to Daniel Quinn's remarks here:

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Il Duce please stop sending me private emails, I've deleted the last 2 or 3 without reading, I cant remember the precise figure. I will not respond privately ever.

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That's fine, so I'll discount this one below then, which you sent me, after I sent you proof of how I legitimately obtained your email addess:

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p.s. it was never personal Marco , you are aware of my distinction between online persona and real person . You do what you do and i'll do what i do , but i am happy to accept the real you is a far more rounded personality and in many respects we are similar passionate no it alls , what we know just differs . Also if you were bland it would'nt be worth it , but im sure you know this already .

regards
Dennis

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;)

You really ought to make up your mind what your position is regarding me. Based on the above, and your recently conflicting remarks on RD's forum, all it proves is that you are nothing but a two-faced lying troll, intent on causing as much conflict as possible, in order to 'amuse' yourself - and this from a supposed solicitor??

I wonder what your law firm would think if they seen how you conduct yourself on the Internet and the kind of juvenile banality you get up to in your free time when still representing your profession? Maybe someone should contact them and show them?

Marco.

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This is getting even funnier (if that were possible) the more he posts the further into the hole of idiocy he digs himself.

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What "idiocy" is that then, Richard? You mean the kind of idiocy that would cause someone to conveniently only believe one side of a dispute?? (I'm referring here to Steve Toy). Clearly, only a blinkered idiot would not take into consideration that there are always two sides to every story! ;)

Also, you may wish to speak again with Steve, as I'm sure he'll give you a rather different version of events now that he's calmed down (as I have) and getting on with his life.

Anyway, have you finished making a fool of yourself yet, as Del's calling me for lunch?

Marco.

This is getting boring and has nothing to do with hifi. Some pages back I read that this had been put to bed only to resurface as another avenue of bitching.
Here's an idea - if you can't find something positive to say about someone - say nothing at all :)

All this isn't just confined to Marco though, although he is the one posting here recently. A good few of "us" and the forum itself have been subject to continued jibes going back a fair old while and, I believe, while the jibing and jealousy continues on the other forum with no sensible way of responding there, then I feel this should continue, but possibly under a different thread title, leaving the "normal" forum to continue.

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Originally Posted by DSJR

All this isn't just confined to Marco though, although he is the one posting here recently. A good few of "us" and the forum itself have been subject to continued jibes going back a fair old while and, I believe, while the jibing and jealousy continues on the other forum with no sensible way of responding there, then I feel this should continue, but possibly under a different thread title, leaving the "normal" forum to continue.

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This being the Internet, no-one will have the last word, ever, so unless one or other party gives it a rest, the argument will continue ad infinitum.

Not that I'm complaining; all this handbags at dawn stuff is far more interesting than discussions like 'will amplifier A work with speaker B?' or 'is analogue better than digital?'.

Hi Robin,

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This is getting boring and has nothing to do with hifi. Some pages back I read that this had been put to bed only to resurface as another avenue of bitching.

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You're absolutely right, and such bitching is alien to the usual friendly atmosphere on AoS, so I apologise.

Clearly, Richard thrives on the attention and has got nothing else better to do with his time, so I'll bow out now, having made my point very clearly, and lock the thread, allowing his illiterate side-kick 'solicitor' and him to have the last (no doubt) many words on his dead-end 'forum', where I'm sure that they'll continue having fun talking to themselves!

Dave, any sensible and unbiased person can differentiate reality from the blinkered and surreal version of such inside RD's head, so worry not my friend, and leave him to his delusions ;)

I'll end with stating that if anyone wants evidence of how I've genuinely changed since the days of The Crossover Network, then they only have to examine my behaviour here on this thread towards the keyboard warrior that is Richard Dunn, which has been calm, dignified and purposeful, despite the severest of provocation from him on his 'forum' - a far cry from how I would've reacted in the bad old days!

Like I said before, some of us can change for the better and learn from our mistakes, whereas Richard Dunn will always be a joyless, lonely, ill-tempered and intolerant old man...

Over and out, chaps :)

Marco.