What MC step ups and head amps has anyone tried, and what differences did they hear? I have 4 transformers and 3 head amps now, doing comparisons, and ulimately confusing myself about which I like best.
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What MC step ups and head amps has anyone tried, and what differences did they hear? I have 4 transformers and 3 head amps now, doing comparisons, and ulimately confusing myself about which I like best.
Could you tell us which preamps (and the rest of your amplifying chain) you have? And, of course which cartridge!
John
Ever tried the Supex 'SDT-722' step up transformer, never tried it myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by WarJarrett
Guys,
This is a subject dear to my heart - I'll get to it later! :)
Marco.
Mayware 'T24' Transformer which uses a technique called 'reflected shunt equalisation' which uses a low inductance transformer enabling the use of carts from 2-40 Ohm.Has user changeable tappings ( Not really a good thing, but!)This was one of my best trannies regardless..
gain varies from 30dB for 2/3 Ohm to 20dB for 40 Ohm carts..I did use this with the Mayware 'MC-7V' cart to superb effect.Superb dynamics also.Just another one of my past exploits...Funny how we de-grade as we up-grade!
I'm developing an odd fascination with MC impedance matching transformers. This is particularly strange as the cartridge I use (Audionote Io) dictates the use of a very high ratio (100:1) transformer and the only people to make such a device are Audionote or Kondo. I found some loose transformers from the old silver wired Audionote Japan S6 on ebay which I put into a box and which suit that cartridge perfectly. Kondo still makes a version of this called the SFz (v. expensive) as do ANUK with several models.
ANS6
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i3...son/16_3-1.jpg
Internal View
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i3...son/0d_3-1.jpg
Loose transformers
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i3...son/5c_1_b.jpg
So why the interest in others?
There were many different manufacturers of high quality studio equipment in the 50's and 60's. Most of these produced (or had produced) microphone matching transformers which facilitated the use of low impedance microphones with high impedance inputs. People have realised that these are applicable to use with MC cartridges and the prices of these loose transformers is creeping up. Models such as those by Altec, peerless, Jensen, RCA, UTC, Dukane all offer outstanding performance and are relatively simple to wire into a chassis. I recently bought a pair of Dukane 3A25's for a few pounds. These gave glorious results with an AT OC9 that I'd never previously wanted to listen to for more than a few minutes at a time.
Dukanes
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i3...n/P1010215.jpg
A friend has some UTC A10's and has just bought a pair of the danish Jorgen Schou transformers which I'm keen to hear. It seems that the core materials used in the laminations as well as the winding techniques used (particularly in some of these older designs) can really preserve an incredible depth of tone from an MC cartridge in a way that wouldn't have seemed possible based on listening to the cartridge under normal circumstances.
Have a look here for more inspiration
http://members.myactv.net/~je2a3/mic-mcstep-up.htm
Keep an eye out for auctions like this.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=018
From the Pure Sound point of view, I've found a European supplier of a goodish quality 1:15 transformer which would certainly do for most newcomers to the joys of MC's and which would go well with our phono stage.
I've also found a UK transformer supplier who can make me some custom wound 'specials' with fancy core material and winding arrangements. The only problem with these is the outlay involved and the fact that they would cost half as much again as the phono stage we make! For me its not a problem as I appreciate the difference a good transformer can make but whether there's really much of a market for a £600-700 transformer remains to be seen.
If there's a good set up with a (mostly expensive) MC cartridge that price is not a problem. A problem though is the quality of the transformer, the shielding and the room it takes. In the past a transformer had the advantage, over tube and transistor amps, of a low noise level. But that time is past! Nowadays it's easy to construct a MC preamp with a noise level of -75 dB at 0,3 mV//100 Ohm.
John
Maybe so John but they do not sound as good.As is nowadays.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrtd
Dear Vinyllist
Nothing is perfect. And every configurattion has it's advantages and disadvantages. So there are always some kind of consessions when designing an item.
Now let's have a look at some of the possible (!) qualities of both.
The step-up transformer:
1. It's passive so there's hardly any non-linear distortion
2. Bandwidth is ALWAYS limited
3. A good one is relatively big and needs space
4. It's supsceptible for "fields"
The active solution:
1. Distortion can be very low, around <0,01%
2. Bandwidth is wider then any vinyl record holds
3. If the "lay out of the PCB" is okay no shielding is needed
4. It needs a power supply and that supply should not be coupled with the RIAA pre-amp thereafter.
In the end it all comes at a price. A good MC step-up transformer will cost >1500 € and an active MC pre-amp, including RIAA, comes at around the same price. At present we offer a complete pre-amp kit, without the cabinet, for 895 €.
John
A precisely matched high grade step up transformer is far superior to any MC stage. Fact!
I can see your trying to sell your products, but please put that aside..
Andr'e,
I'm sure John's intentions are entirely honourable even though his opinion differs from yours ;)
I'll contribute to this discussion, in terms of step-up transformers and their merits, in more detail later.
Marco.
Ok..Don't forget to mention your perfectly matched step up transformer in the process ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Oh you can take that as a given ;)
Different strokes for different folks though...
Marco.
Dear Vinylscratcher
In principle I didn't refer to our own products. After having been the chief editor of an audio magazine (yeh a printed one) I've seen lots of transformers and preamps. My thinking about the subject has to do with that experience (and our own R&D of course).
And sure there are some nice sounding transformers around, I know.
John
Grinder John, Grinder not Scratcher!Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrtd
Yep there are some pretty shitty transformers knocking about, but pick a good un & bingo..
Both traffo and active circuits have their downside, problem with MC is that its such a small signal it takes an extremely low noise circuit to work well, a lot of designs are either too slow or too noisy, traffo's also have their downsides as already mentioned, theres lots of cable in these things and good quality wound does not come cheap
I wouldn't like to put my money on which is the best way to go tbh
LOL! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Vinyl Grinder
What's a grind or a scratch between friends? :p
Marco.
2 years or 6 months respectively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
:D
Interesting thread.
If, hypothetically speaking, I wanted to try out a Purseound P10 with my AT-OC9, can anyone recommend a suitable step-up that costs no more than around £100? Or would it cost more than this? Anyway, any suggestions would be much appreciated.
Hi Jon,
The nearest thing I can think of to what you want would be one of these.
http://www.britishaudio.co.uk/blackhead.html
Otherwise look on ebay for a second hand pair of Ortofon T-5's, Sony's equivalent or a Denon step up.
Or this if you act fast
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Ortofon-T-10-s...QQcmdZViewItem
From my experience of using and designing both John is quite correct. Transformers *add* to the circuit more than acceptably in my terms. I still feel people misunderstand transformers when used for voltage gain. In simple terms it is a trade off between current and voltage and an MC cartridge doesn't have much current to trade off. I am always surprised they sound as good as they do, but a well designed active gain stage in my terms wins every time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinyl Grinder
I think this boils down to what you expect and want from the music, glass bottle afficionados tend to like what transformers do.
Thanks for the suggestions and the heads-up on the Ortofon, Guy - I have checked it out....and bid!
I may well have this problem thrust upon me if I go ahead with replacing my Lyra Helikon with a Koetsu.
The output is about the same, but I understand that Koetsus like loadings of between 85 and 100+ ohms, whereas my Lyra is very accommodating and works well into my Naim Prefix K (580 ohms) and probably most other stages.
Although Naim are bringing out a versatile new stage very soon, with 4 impedance x 4 capacitance permutations, I'd like to know of other options.
A 'Puresound' stage has been recommended (and I like the idea of a valve or two!), but I feel it's designed for mm only. The thought of bloody great transformers and what-have-you doesn't appeal, though.
The cart. will go on an SME5 into a Naim pre., and I'm not well-versed in electronics theory, if that's any help!
By the way, the above was recommended in one of the postings. I still have a pair in its original box lying around somewhere, if there's any interest.
There is another fly in the ointment, it depends on how the active stages in the head amp have been designed. It is quite possible to design this to be load rejecting when designing at these low voltage levels. So some head amps need to be carefully adjusted for load and others don't. BUT the audiophile grapevine has been active on this one, so the sheep are doing a lot of baaa-ing :) If you want me to recommend a load rejecting one then PM me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Reed
These are as good as anything transformer wise unless you are willing to spend a lot of money, and they don't ring ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Reed
You wouldn't happen to be referring to something that is shortly to be released by a certain Wiltshire-based outfit are you by any chance, Richard.....??Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Nope don't normally listen to anything from the west country, can't understand the accent :eyebrows:Quote:
Originally Posted by JonR
Seriously, I think their old circuit from what I remember of it is pretty load rejecting. Perhaps they are just jumping on *another* band wagon like the cable one. When you have big staff and factory and a declining market it pays to look in all directions ;)
Sometimes it is commercialy better just to give the customer what he wants even though you may think he is bonkers :mental:
I am in a very lucky position to do what ever I want and if people don't like it either conceptually or in reality, well too bad. Your friends were like this when JV was in charge, different beast now IMO.
Well, I think it's fair to say a lot of people miss JV, but the fact is he's dead now and meanwhile the company has to move on. I actually do like what their new offering does; the convenient load adjustment certainly adds to its appeal, IMO. The price tag, on the other hand, err....doesn't!!
You miss the point!Quote:
Originally Posted by JonR
What is the point of having load adjustment when you don't need it, apart from to pander to the Baa-lambs, which is what I was refering to. With a transformer yes and very audible, as it is working at the limits of what is possible. BUT with an active stage you have so much headroom the load changes become insignificant with good design. Naim almost had that with the old circuit :) though splitting the rails would have helped.
IMO this is marketing pure and simple. It gives an itch in the pockets for all the "if its made in Salisbury it must be best" brigade. They are milking a captive market and that is always a very short term strategy.
Anyway John enjoy, take no notice of me, just try and keep an open mind.
I'd like to think that I am at least doing the latter - by considering a valve-based device in my system for the first time!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Let's not get into any sheep bashing eh?
I can think of one guy who is a bit like that but to me it isn't a question of being best, just suitably different. I think even now they are just that - different and distinctive. I guess it is only expensive if, like me, you just can't afford it.:baa: They aren't all sheep. Some are genuinely discerning.Quote:
IMO this is marketing pure and simple. It gives an itch in the pockets for all the "if its made in Salisbury it must be best" brigade. They are milking a captive market and that is always a very short term strategy.
Nice one Jon. Well within budget!
Cheers Guy - yeah it's a bit of a result, I'd say!
Now - to secure a P10 to try it out with....!!
It should certainly be more than good enough. I'll try to look up what the exact spec was. I found my Mk1 OC9 liked to see 30 Ohms but the T-10 will I'm sure do what you want.
Finding a P10 might be harder! There are none here at the moment. try Noteworthy, Radlett Audio (now in Saffron Walden) or Walrus.
Will do Guy, thanks.
looks perfect. (see the first table)
http://www.vinylengine.com/step-ups-...rtridges.shtml
Profuse apologies for my ignorance Guy, but I tried following the table and understanding what it meant, but am having some difficulty relating the information it contains to my own cartridge. Please could you explain what you mean? Thanks in advance!Quote:
Originally Posted by pure sound
After perusing these postings and wading through a Frenchman's impressive but (to me) incomprehensible thesis, it's dawned on me that most of this stuff refers to upping the voltage to mm levels.Mostly by passive means.
This surely is not pertinent to feeding a line level on my pre.. I have gleaned that an active phono stage is for me (similar to my power-supply driven Prefix, I guess).
I appreciate (as someone pointed out) that too many permutations of impedance and capacitance may compromise sound quality and most would be redundant. However, Naim is not known for stinting on sound quality in favour of bells and whistles!.
£1600 or thereabouts. Expensive, someone said. Really? Not if it does the job. There are phono stages out there (a handful) costing well in excess of ten grand. Even the Tom Evans ones can be over two grand!. I think my Prefix is a bargain, but even that's not bargain basement with a decent power supply, which is mandatory.
I had hoped for recommendations (from suscribers' experiences) of other phono stages that CAN be configured for other loads etc. without changing the internal gubbins
No worries. It just means that the turns ratio in this transformer is such that when you plug the output of it into an MM stage with 47Kohms input impedance (almost all are), the impedance it then presents to the cartridge is 30 ohms. Which I reckon is exactly what an OC9 needs to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonR
Ah right - thanks again for the explanation, much appreciated.Quote:
Originally Posted by pure sound
There might be other problems too when using a transformer (step up) instead of an electronic circuit. If a transformer offers 47 or 50 kOhm at the output one has to take care that the link to the MM-input is very very short otherwise cable capacitance (and/or inductance) may filter out the higher octaves. I assume all of you know that LP records can have a bandwidth of 50 - 80 kHz?
A different thing is the input->output impedance relationship. The ratio is a given thing. So if the impedances relate to each other as 1:500 (most step-up's are) one has to take care when connecting to a 50 Ohm (or lower) cartridge impedance .....
If someone is interested I could design a (relatively) cheap active circuit and offer you the pcb with or without components.
Have fun
John
Series capacitance is a low pass filter and series inductance is a high pass filter and series resistance is volume filter ;) AND transformers have all three in far greater quantity than a good active circuit, capacitance especially if you are using an interconnect of any length. Your dealing with minute voltages (relatively), much easier to mess up than line level voltages.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrtd
The only need for them is that you cannot design a valve mc stage unless it is unacceptably noisy. So out of a design necessity the marketing men try to create an artificial advantage - "don't sell the meat sell the sizzle".
Richard,
As with anything in hi-fi, there is no 'true path' or one 'best' way of dealing with a problem.
I've got quite a bit of experience of active MC stages and transformers with a variety of cartridges and I've come to the conclusion that unless the transformer has been specifically designed to partner an MC cartridge, preferably if it's made by the same manufacturer, and therefore the electrical specifications are properly matched, then you're better off with a good active design.
However, in instances where the cartridge and transformer have been designed to operate together from the ground up by the same manufacturer, or where a manufacturer has specifically designed a transformer that optimises the performance of a particular cartridge, then this in my experience gives the best results. Manufacturers who come into that category are the likes of Audionote, Ortofon and Denon.
The problem with a lot of MC transformers is that they're not specifically designed to optimise the performance of a particular cartridge sonically and electrically - they're designed for general use in many cases by manufacturers who do not design cartridges, so ultimate performance is not achievable unless you're very lucky and just happen to hit upon a perfect match.
Therefore to conclude, use a good active MC stage if your cartridge manufacturer does not supply an optimised transformer for that cartridge, but if your cartridge manufacturer provides a matching transformer then that will give ultimate performance for that cartridge. I have never heard a better sound from my Denon DL-103 Pro than when used with a good MM stage (preferably valve) and Denon's own step-up transformer or my Auditorium 23, which is the result of someone's years of experimentation to find the ultimate transformer match for the 103, and a unique understanding and experience of how that particular cartridge works. It will be the same with those who have produced devices for Ortofon and Audionote.
Marco.
Well ask any valve amplifier designer and if he is being honest and not following the marketing path, he will tell you that he would much prefer to use valve active stages than a transformer, but he can't!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
So a deficiency is turned into an asset for marketing purposes. Now the real argument is between solid state and valve phono stages. Losing bandwidth and dynamic contrast in exchange for rose coloured glasses, a trade off all are making decisions for. It is human nature to want change and also to follow the most exciting band wagon (marketing). BUT *NOTHING* is perfect, everything is a compromise, the current move to valve will have a corresponding backlash, when people realise that bits of the baby have gone down the plughole. This is why Gromits audio adventures (good title for a book) is so informative and humerous. He is going through all the stages it normally takes people months or years to go through, and is at a regressive stage having gone through valves, then to information and clarity, now back to drive and presence. Hopefully he will realise nothing is perfect and the state of the art *does not exist* and it is down to an individuals *acceptable compromise* that will makes you happy.
Quite simply there is no *best* anything, there is better, worse and different.
Richard,
I know what you mean by "rose coloured glasses." I'm not yet ready to wear mine.
Hi Richard,
I wouldn't ever choose to use a valve MC stage. Transformer every time, particularly with the cartridge I use at home. 0.04mV out needing to see 2-3 ohms!
The majority of cartridge manufacturers also choose to make and generally recommend transformers too. (Denon, Ortofon, Audio Technica, AudioNote, Shelter etc)
Gromit's adventures have been interesting to follow but the decisions he's making are very much based on the speakers he can get to work in his room. He seems to be enjoying the Naim stuff at the moment. Where next I wonder?
Don't you know the equation relating to head room v load impedance, also load rejecting circuit design. I say again the only thing that makes transformers necessary in this application is the electrical characteristics of valves, those constraints are not there in solid state designs. When you are working on the edge of what is possible then loading influences enormously and transformer into cable into valves is just that at that voltage level.Quote:
Originally Posted by pure sound
You know as well as I do why there is the necessity for output transformers with valves amps and how many people have tried to produce a reliable and sensible OTL to counter this. Are you telling me that given the choice you wouldn't get rid of the most expensive and critical component in valve amp design if you could?
I also know the inherent advantages of valve circuits, I wish I could get transistor circuits that simple, I keep trying :scratch: They are just different methods to catch the same monkey, and he is a slippery bugger.
I've yet to hear an OTL that I liked. The nearest thing I've heard to one that works is the Berning which uses a high frequency impedance converter
http://www.davidberning.com/technology
however, even then I prefer the sound of a good transformer coupled amp!