Definitions - What constitutes Classic or Vintage Hi-Fi?

In the world of old cars a Vintage is pre-1930 and a Classic is generally thought to be from after the 1940's and older than 25 years.

Some cars are obvious Classics, but others qualify that no-one would ever have thought to have any merit as a collector's car - any offers for a concours condition Morris Ital, anyone?
No, I thought not!!

THEORY A:
Classic hi-fi is defined by what was current (or cool but unaffordable) in the youth of whichever drooling casualty is defining it. Or it's the stuff that was around when they first got interested in hi-fi (not necessarily the same thing).

DISCUSS

THEORY B:
Ebay has turned the whole thing on it's head

DISCUSS

THEORY C:
True classic or vintage items must have some degree of 'merit' in addition to age.

DISCUSS

Ha ha ha :lol: some interesting thoughts there Grand Waz. 'Classic' definitely is an overused word in some circles. I'd definitely like to think that Theory C is on the money, but there's a fair bit of hubris and 'Theory A' at work, particularly on some of the American fora :)

Often it seems that anything with a silver or - even better - a champagne fascia that's more than 20 years old is considered a classic :) As far as 'vintage' goes I draw the line at the end of the 70's, when VU meters were replaced with LED's. LED's ushered in 'the modern age', along with plastic fascia's, lightweight chassis and feather-touch logic controls :)

Classics can be other than 'vintage' there are some very classic tape decks from the 80's that are no-way vintage. So the two terms can definitely be exclusive...

eBay... eBay confuses people TBH. With reel to reels in particular there are a lot of vintage items that sound like crap, aren't worth much more than doorstops, though the listings seem to indicate the seller thinks they've got something really rare and high quality :)

It's funny how with eBay having the original box can significantly increase the potential end price of an auction. I've even seen empty boxes listed for upwards of £25. There's a lot of profiteering going on. High priced BIN items that sit around for months waiting for some sucker to bite; when a long-term search and a steady hand can score some real bargains. An Elcaset demo tape I got for £17, perfect nick, is currently on eBay as a BIN for £78. Has been for months. These inflated BIN prices from people with the attitude that 'I'll sell if I get x for it' x being 4 times market value, probably are driving up perceived prices for old equipment.

Some items are just collectable too. Like the Elcaset wired remote that went for £150 - I think there were maybe 3 people bidding against each other that day, I was prepared for to £115. Oh well!

Be interested what other folks think about your conundrum, GW!

Sorry, slightly OT here, but it's a nice example of eBay silliness!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TECHNICS-SL-12...ewItem?ebay=68

Where's the headshell? It comes with a stylus but no headshell :confused:

Dunno... but considering Gromit has just bought a BRAND NEW SL-1210 for a hundred quid less than that, the headshell would be the least of my worries! :confused:

It's the same thing with amps like the Quad II, Stereo 20 and Radford gear.Always were collector's items in recent years,but ebay put the prices through the stratosphere.The Quad and Leak are nice amps,but not world-beaters,yet command very silly prices now.Radford gear was always in a different class IMHO,and never was cheap secondhand,but again ebay has a lot to answer for here.

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Originally Posted by Ali Tait

It's the same thing with amps like the Quad II, Stereo 20 and Radford gear.Always were collector's items in recent years,but ebay put the prices through the stratosphere.The Quad and Leak are nice amps,but not world-beaters,yet command very silly prices now.Radford gear was always in a different class IMHO,and never was cheap secondhand,but again ebay has a lot to answer for here.

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The magazines also have an effect on the price of older gear - For example, I remember seeing the begining of the rise of Radford gear straight after HiFi World tested a rebuilt STA15. (I paid £250 for mine!!)

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Originally Posted by Mike Homar

Dunno... but considering Gromit has just bought a BRAND NEW SL-1210 for a hundred quid less than that, the headshell would be the least of my worries! :confused:

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;) I know... I wuz pullin yer leg :doh:

Something that I never understood is the term 'logic controls'. Does this mean that all controls that went before were illogical? To me an illogical control is a button with an incorrect label or one that performs in an unusual manner, but whether before 'logic controls' or after, a play button is a play button, a pause button is a pause button and the wind buttons are wind buttons regardless. Is it a term for something specific or is it just a sales term added to the exterior plastics of tape decks to go with the LEDs?

I'd be very happy to pay 250 quid for one these days.

Actually, I've just answered my own question. :)

Emagic's logic control

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Originally Posted by Filterlab

Something that I never understood is the term 'logic controls'.

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Well; I took it to mean non-mechanical - or at least non-manual - control of the transport. The RT-707 Pioneer reel to reel sports 'logic control' from 1978, and they define that in the manual as meaning you can go from forward to play without pressing stop... the implication and actuality was that on pre-logic control kit it was easy to get the buttons jammed by pressing them too quickly one after the other, or to cause belts or gears to jump because the transition between the two mechanical states was too sharp. On most earlier reel machines for example you had to go to stop before play when forwarding and rewinding. Having 'logic' control the transition - with solenoids operating the mechanics based on electronic feedback from the electronic switches, rather than manual paddles and levers - meant it could be controlled more precisely than would be the case with a typical overenthusiastic hi-fi buff at the controls :lol:

Yes I agree that some things have been for to long rated to highly. Quad 2 amps nice but but coloured. I remember back in the late 80's these were rated highly. I even bought a set and a spare for £100 + a pre in a nice wood box with a Garrad TT ( not a good one ). These have sat around the house since then always meant to get them done up, but never got round to it. Leak better but still not the giant killers some think they are.

Radford and Grant are quite good. The problem with old kit is that by the time you make it safe replace faulty bits is it what it was designed to be. The best way of viewing these might be as a framework to play with.

One of the view things to come along that I do think is well worth the hype is the Leak Troughline tuner (thanks to hi-fi World ) for raising the price on these.
I have 3 of these 2 mk 2 and a stereo mk 3. I use the art deco style 2 with a EAR FM decoder. Pure magic. I would love to hear a Day Sequera though.

As to other bits being classics ummm ? Marantz multi bit players 94 mk 1 and 2, CD 12, CD 7. thought the costs for the CD 12 are ridiculous this was a £ 2500 CDP back in 1989. I sold them new back then very good but the Cd 94 mk 2 is as good IMHO for less than half the cost New. And at about £300 S/h pretty good value though a bit coarse in the treble. Just my opinion. Whereas A S?H CDP 12 will cost you up to £2000 now. I once questioned HI-FI guy in Brighton about this, he wasn't very receptive to my offer of what I did think it was worth. Can't blame him though. I always wanted one to complete my Marantz multi bit CDP collection.

There are lots of other things that were good in their day but still hold their own such as the Nak Tape decks but a lot of stuff is bettered by modern kit, though older kit is better made and thus more reliable (for the most part).

I think its all about nostalgia at the end of the day. And sometimes finding stuff that was/is a lot better than it should be or you remember it being.

Regards D S D L ---- Neil :)

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Originally Posted by Dalek Supreme D L

One of the view things to come along that I do think is well worth the hype is the Leak Troughline tuner (thanks to hi-fi World ) for raising the price on these.
I have 3 of these 2 mk 2 and a stereo mk 3. I use the art deco style 2 with a EAR FM decoder. Pure magic. I would love to hear a Day Sequera though.......

........There are lots of other things that were good in their day but still hold their own such as the Nak Tape decks but a lot of stuff is bettered by modern kit, though older kit is better made and thus more reliable (for the most part).......

.....I think its all about nostalgia at the end of the day. And sometimes finding stuff that was/is a lot better than it should be or you remember it being.........

Regards D S D L ---- Neil :)

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It's true that the Troughline is a very, very good tuner for the price at which you can pick them up - (I've also got a Mk2 & did have a Mk 3 - loved 'em both). However, I think it's been waaaaaaaay over-rated and can easily be significantly bettered - maybe not for the price of a Troughline but certainly for the price of a Troughline and a decent decoder.

There are old models from Sansui, Trio-Kenwood, Accuphase and Pioneer that for me will not only trounce a Troughline, but they'll do it with a much weaker signal too. I couldn't imagine a better FM sound than my old Troughline, but then I started nosing around the 2nd hand market & talking to folks who take tuners really seriously. A couple of years ago, I ended up with an Accuphase T101 for just over £200 - the classic tuner market is a good place to be a buyer at the moment!!

For some, it is just about nostalgia, but there are plenty of other good reasons for owning older gear. Some kit still hasn't been bettered by new designs!!

When I got my Sugden R21 a few people compared it with the Troughline. Are they in the same league? I picked up my Sugden for £25 which seems something like the going price, if so, then it's a steal. For me, the Sugden does well on non-commercial channels where the signal isn't completely compressed. R3 and 4 sound great. Local channels don't sound so good. Be interested in what people have to say if they've had any experience of the Sugden...

Yes the Troughline is a bit of an overpriced item now. Plus the signal strength issue, to much aghhhhhhhhhhhhh, to little, ehhhhhhhhh what. But I love mine. I also have a Revox B260 the first Tuner with RDS from 1988. Very nice and great sensitivity :) My first two( Troughlines )only cost £50 each,but the one with the EAR decoder was £300 ( to much but I had to have it,nice wood box as well. We have to blame hi-fi world for that issue. Thanks for mentioning it now be silent about it). Reminds me of John Ditchfield glass. Nice late 60's early 70's art glass like Tiffany, Gallay, Lalique. Cheap then Bargain Hunt ( BBC Antique TV show ) found it and hyped it to the max. Every Show John Ditchfield. what would have cost a few pounds went to over £100 and above. The average Lilly Pad and dragon Fly is now about £ 160 +( thanks a lot David Dickenson, thanks a bunch). Sorry about that I am into antique Glass ware and Oil lamps.

I like Tuners a lot, so I will certainly check out the Acuphase tuner you mention. I hope analogue switch off, is many years away. Dab suckssssssssssssssssssssss, big time. Even with a good DAC, its crap.OOPS (IMHO). Maybe DAB + will be better. Even Radio of Sky at 192 kb, through a DAC is poor, but better than DAB.

I had a repair guy ( local Genius ) re-do my mk 3 troughline. He put a Motorola decoder into it and recalibration took place, as well. Very nice and better sensitivity. But I still prefer the mk 2 with the EAR decoder.

Regards D S D L----- Neil :)

From The Grave

....slightly topical from Neil's point of view but does anyone have any views on the original points?

THEORY A:
Classic hi-fi is defined by what was current (or cool but unaffordable) in the youth of whichever drooling casualty is defining it. Or it's the stuff that was around when they first got interested in hi-fi (not necessarily the same thing).

THEORY B:
Ebay has turned the whole thing on it's head

THEORY C:
True classic or vintage items must have some degree of 'merit' in addition to age.

Classic gear to me is a product that has 100% character, built like a tank (well some), has a wholesome full bodied sound, some atributes todays hifi lacks.

Theory A + Theory C, or to define it another way: "Everything that I own".

Indeed Chris, very topical considering I am now the owner of an Accuphase T101 (listening to it right now).

Regards D S D L

Well, to me, all apply!

A) - why I own an early Rega Planar 3, an Aura amp, and Pioneer PD-S904 CD player - items I coveted at some point in the past, and why I have a hankering for some TDL speakers...

B) - If you don't do your research, very easy to get carried away with what seems to be fetching money at the moment - a lot of crap is "bigged up" by the seller - in a way, the 70's Sony amp I bought was a victim of this - I only really wanted it as a collectible piece (OK, for the big VU meters!) but it doesn't sound brilliant compared to a modern amp - also makes me laugh how you only ever see an ebay ad saying how fantastic the piece of kit sounds - in which case, why are you selling it?!

C) I agree - a classic should have something of "merit" but that can be a very loose term - it could be that it was the component that defined a generation and was good but is not particularly rare (say an SME 3009) or its merits might be that it is rare as hen's teeth, yet still not sound that good... Or it could be that it is a design classic, but fragile as hell - lots of comparisons to the classic car world, I think - no one would doubt that many Alfas and Lancias are classics, despite the fact that they rot at the first sign of H20 and fall to pieces if you actually use them!

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Originally Posted by Dalek Supreme D L

Sorry about that I am into antique Glass ware and Oil lamps.
Regards D S D L----- Neil :)

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Don't be sorry, so am I :)

Andy

For me "Vintage" HiFi is stuff that was made before Transistor were commonly used, the gear to qualify as "Vintage" must have been well regarded in it's day or have qualities that can be improved on by moding today.

"Classic" HiFi is everything after the common useage of transistor, it must also have been well regarded in it's day, and be no longer in production.

Unfortunately the words Classic and Vintage are just that "words" so any dick of a seller on Ebay is gonna get an old dusty Amstrad out of the attic, and stick it up for sale as "Rare Classic" or "Vintage 70's" thinking that by using those words it's either going to give you a nostalgic feeling about the gear he's selling or make it sound better than it is. At the end of the day if it was crap then, it's still gonna be crap now.

The common thread that links the words "Vintage" and "Classic" is quality, be it sound or the manufacture of the item, in my mind to be vintage or classic, 1st it had to have been a quality item.