1210 arm choices

Hi all,

So my new (to me) 1210mkII arrived today. After a couple of hours cleaning it thoroughly (so much for 'excellent condition') it's in a much more presentable state.

I got this as an experiment - I've always had a soft spot for Japanese hi-fi, and was getting a bit disillusioned with the whole Linn thing. Not that I don't like Linn, I've had many hours of musical fun with the LP12 - but it's appeal is starting to wane.

I was thinking of getting a simpler, no frills deck and happened upon this site and some of the excellent info on the 1210. Now I own one I have a conundrum - in short, arms.

I set it up today, plonking and old (and slightly worn) AT OC5 on the standard arm. Setup as best I could with the HiFi News test disk protractor, and gave it a spin not really expecting much. I was suitably impressed though. Not as good as the LP12 but very close to my ears - surprisingly close. Admittedly, the LP12 is running a Grado Prestige Silver but even so...

So now I have a choice to make. I plan to get a new AT OC9 (I've always loved them) and...

Run the 1210 as is, add a KAB damper and better headshell, maybe different leads/rewire

Get a Rega mount and use the OL1 (with all structural mods) on it instead

Get a Linn mount and use the old Ittok MKII I had on the Linn before the OL.

Thoughts, experiences and anything else would be much appreciated...

Cheers

Jason

I am not experienced around the 1210 and I am sure Marco we have some better ideas than me
I think you will get good results no matter which way you go
The KAB should make a big difference to the standard arm
The Orgin Live mod has great reports written
But if it was my choice I speak to Vic at Trans Fi he is very helpful and a master DIY specialist about his Terminator tonearm its very cheap but performance wise will beat some serious arms. The major issue would be the mount but I am sure Vic will help out with this, you would also need to isolate the turntable really well to get the best out of the arm but you then have something very special indeed, perhaps a wall mount if you can or use Butcher maple block
This is the most outside response you get, but I believe you should have something very special
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...or_tonearm.htm

Read the above review I agree with every thing Clive has written

Thanks John, certainly a left-field choice. I'm kinda looking to do it on a budget though, and I have all of the arms listed - it's really down to them!

I'm open to different carts though, as I'm aware that some may work with the std arm or OL one better than others...

Jason

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jason P

Run the 1210 as is, add a KAB damper and better headshell, maybe different leads/rewire

Get a Rega mount and use the OL1 (with all structural mods) on it instead

Get a Linn mount and use the old Ittok MKII I had on the Linn before the OL.

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That would be interesting!... No idea if it would be a good combo though. :scratch:

Marco will no doubt council that the first option is the way to go... ;)

Quote:

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So now I have a choice to make. I plan to get a new AT OC9 (I've always loved them) and...

Run the 1210 as is, add a KAB damper and better headshell, maybe different leads/rewire

Get a Rega mount and use the OL1 (with all structural mods) on it instead

Get a Linn mount and use the old Ittok MKII I had on the Linn before the OL.

Thoughts, experiences and anything else would be much appreciated...

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Hi Jason,

Sorry I've taken so long to get back to you! It's sometimes difficult keeping up with all the threads.

Ok, first of all, you can save yourself some money by buying an AT-33PTG (shown below) from Audiocubes instead of an OC-9:

http://www.audiocubes2.com/brand/Aud...Cartridge.html

I've tried both cartridges and, IMO, the AT33PTG does everything the OC-9 does and more. I can elaborate on this if you wish.

As for arms, it depends on how much you want to spend, what cartridge you're going to use and what type of presentation you like. I've got no experience of OL arms on a 1210, but I've used them in the past on other decks and found them to be excellent.

However, I'm not sure that in terms of sound-per-pound value the OL1 will offer much, if any, improvement on the Technics arm when Cardas rewired, fluid-damped, and a decent headshell/cw are fitted. Doing those modifications really elevates the arm into a different class altogether from the stock unmodified item.

As for the Ittok idea, it's an intriguing one. I have no idea how that would perform on a 1210. I guess that if you were to use a Linn cartridge (which the arm was designed to work with) the results would be pretty good. But if you're intending to use an OC-9 or an AT33PTG I think there are much better options available.

I hope that helps. If you've got any other questions don't hesitate to ask! :)

Marco.

Thanks for that Marco, it's a bit of a gamble. I'm thinking that selling the LP12 with all the OL mods and then the Ittok separately will get me more in the way of cash to upgrade the stock arm, or get a whole new one from KAB.

The AT33 looks interesting, though with the OC9 going for around £220-240 the price saving isn't that great now. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the differences and maybe how it compares to the Denon 103 for example. I like the very detailed but (to me) not too forward presentation of the OC5. BTW I'm using a Musical Fidelity X-LP phono stage (the early round one).

Cheers,

Jason

Well, I got the 1210 going, and have added a rega armboard from SoundHiFi along with one of their mats.

So far so good, though I'm not as impressed as I thought I'd be by the change. I may well have a go at rewiring the standard arm and adding a Sumiko headshell and heavier counterweight and see what that's like in comparison.

I've had to go back to the Grado Silver for now as the OC5 has finally expired...

I'll live with the OL arm for a while as i rewire the Technics arm - any hints and tips as to the best way of doing it?

BTW my LP12 sold on ebay rather quickly (maybe too quickly!) and I still have the Ittok left. That will go on soon...

Jason

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jason P

I'll live with the OL arm for a while as i rewire the Technics arm - any hints and tips as to the best way of doing it?


Jason

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Hi Jason. I'm planning to do this rewire myself so I've been researching it. This is what I've come up with so far:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/sh...d.php?t=148792

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?...earm+part+1&r=

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?...ire+a+Technics

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vin...75/755529.html

Good luck, let us know how it goes!

John

Thanks for that Jonners, it doesn't look like too hard a task. Anyone know of a good source of tonearm wire, Litz or Cardas or the like??

As far as headshells go, what alternatives are there beyond the Sumiko and Audio Technica? Best price/performance ratio?

Are there any other sources of damping troughs other than KAB? I know one forumite made there own - any plans to go into production?:eyebrows:

One of the things that surprised me about the original arm was it's tracking ability. I'd never gotten the LP12 to track perfectly to the end of a side, there was always a coarseness no matter how carefully I set it up. With the stock Technics arm it worked straight out of the box, no difference in sound from the 1st track to the last. I don't know if this was a synergy between the arm and the OC5, or fluke or what - but the OL arm isn't as good in that respect. I guess changing carts for the Grado doesn't help, but the brief time I had the OC5 on the OL arm it didn't sound as good in the tracking department. It's that kind of troubleshooting I became bored with on the LP12; I just want a deck that sounds good from the get-go without worrying about setup all the time.

Jason

This is really good wire
http://www.trans-fi.com/tonearmwire.htm

It may or may not happen, but
all the talk of jelcos and sme arms has pushed my crosshairs onto vics terminator.
firstly i need to sort the 'dust cover' and 'mounting plate' issues.
if i can sort them to my satisfaction -watch this space:eyebrows:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by muffinman

It may or may not happen, but
all the talk of jelcos and sme arms has pushed my crosshairs onto vics terminator.
firstly i need to sort the 'dust cover' and 'mounting plate' issues.
if i can sort them to my satisfaction -watch this space:eyebrows:

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Let me know if you want any views....here's a pic of one component of the arm:
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...0007F32sm2.jpg

Consider me terminated :gig:

does this make me a pioneer or have i missed that boat too?

Back to the original... I've been living with the OL on my 1210 now for a while, and whilst its OK... it ain't great. Just a bit - well nonedescript really. I can't seem to get the tracking right - you'll remember that the stock arm tracked brilliantly 'out of the box' as it were. So I may well try to rewire, replace with a Sumiko headshell and see where we go from there. Missed the boat well and truly on the OC9, now they've gone through the roof price-wise. Ahh well...

Jason

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jason P

Back to the original... I've been living with the OL on my 1210 now for a while, and whilst its OK... it ain't great. Just a bit - well nonedescript really. I can't seem to get the tracking right - you'll remember that the stock arm tracked brilliantly 'out of the box' as it were. So I may well try to rewire, replace with a Sumiko headshell and see where we go from there. Missed the boat well and truly on the OC9, now they've gone through the roof price-wise. Ahh well...

Jason

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Interesting, that seems to agree with Richard's (Gromit's) remarks about his J7 reworked 250.

As for the cartridge, you could look at an audiocubesII sourced AT33PTG.

cheers

Peter,

It just proves what I've said all along - Regas are not an 'upgrade' on the Technics arm, especially when the latter is Cardas rewired and fluid-damped.

I didn't think that Richard's reworked Rega was the reason for his current dissatisfaction with the Techy... I thought J7s arm had improved it :scratch:

Marco.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marco

I didn't think that Richard's reworked Rega was the reason for his current dissatisfaction with the Techy... I thought J7s arm had improved it :scratch:

Marco.

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Indeed it has improved it - and by a not insignificant margin. Saying that, I'm putting the 1210's arm in the Post up to Johnnie tomorrow - he's going to sprinkle some magic Origami dust on it for me...oh yes. :)

(well it'd be silly not to wouldn't it?) :eyebrows:

Over the last few days I have got to wondering slightly if the Rega-based arms, even when J7's worked his magic on them, aren't perhaps the best match for the Technics. Maybe, in the same way as the 103 likes a lossy set-up, the 1210 itself prefers a lossier arm - the RB's are so stiff that they dump a lot of (unwanted) energy into the loop. Certainly in terms of grip and control the RB251 is stunning - turn the wick up and it's quite breathtaking such is its speed and bass grip. It's just all a bit much at times. On the right turntable the RB's work beautifully (I love it on the Spacedeck, for example, and would keep my 251 for any time I might get a NAS again) but I think, and this is just a hunch, that the 1210 needs something with a slightly more genteel balance to complement its own set of strengths.

I'd also love to try a unipivot on it. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gromit

I'm putting the 1210's arm in the Post up to Johnnie tomorrow - he's going to sprinkle some magic Origami dust on it for me

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Which mods is the J-meister doing for you?

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Originally Posted by muffinman

Which mods is the J-meister doing for you?

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Johnnie's doing the full Cardas (in & out), a bespoke counterweight in brushed brass (to balance out the 7kg or so of ballast I use with the 103) and also do a bearing check and lube. I really want to get that Denon earning its living properly on the 1210 and feel this, apart from going for a unipivot or the Jelco 750 (I'm not rich like Marco ;) ) feel this is the only way I'm going to be able to do it.

I can change the arm on the 1210 in under 30 mins now so it'll be fun having the 2 of them to use. :)

Richard,

If it's not a rude Q can you PM me the cost of the mods you're doing on the stocka rm and contact details for Johnny please? I may well go down this route over DIY...

Jason

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jason P

Richard,

If it's not a rude Q can you PM me the cost of the mods you're doing on the stocka rm and contact details for Johnny please? I may well go down this route over DIY...

Jason

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I'll be glad to Jason when Johnnie's worked out the bill. Only decided to get this done today and Johnnie's got a lot of work on at the moment so will get back to you :)