Scalford show 6th March 2011

Glad you agree, Mark. Some other folks probably wouldn't, though. I think much depends on what you're looking for in music reproduction, and what your sensibilities and experience dictate as being the best approach.

Personally, I would always place appropriate (I choose that word carefully ;)) emphasis on the quality of the source and control components, and how they're set-up, as well as ensuring that there are transducers on the end of the system capable of faithfully reproducing the musical message, derived further upstream! :)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Some other folks probably wouldn't.

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Ha, yes indeed - but then there are a lot of 'wrong' people in the world ;).

Marco, as you know, I was once very strongly of the 'Flat Earth' fraternity and, to be honest, I still am to a large extent. What people get wrong is that they think this means Linn and Naim - but the concept is broader than that (I'm not even sure Linn still adhere to the FE philosophy). In my experience, two system maxims still ring true; 1/ Crap in, crap out and, 2/ a system is only as strong as its weakest link. The speakers are rarely the weakest link in my experience (though the positioning, and support, of those speakers often is). Although one may think that my idea of what makes a good system would be diametrically opposed to those of valve owners, in fact the opposite is true and I often find my thoughts and feelings quite closely aligned with theirs.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Glad you agree, Mark. Some other folks probably wouldn't, though. I think much depends on what you're looking for in music reproduction, and what your sensibilities and experience dictate as being the best approach.

Personally, I would always place appropriate (I choose that word carefully ;)) emphasis on the quality of the source and control components, and how they're set-up, as well as ensuring that there are transducers on the end of the system capable of faithfully reproducing the musical message, derived further upstream! :)

Marco.

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That has always worked for me over very many years. If you don't have it further upstream the speakers can never reproduce it.

I generally would still be a source first then pre-amplifier type of guy......:sofa:


Regards D S D L

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Originally Posted by Dalek Supreme D L

That has always worked for me over very many years. If you don't have it further upstream the speakers can never reproduce it.

I generally would still be a source first then pre-amplifier type of guy......:sofa:


Regards D S D L

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from the other angle .. if the speakers are not up to it.. are they reproducing 'it' upsteam...
without quality amps and speakers you can't hear whats missing...

same as if you have a poor source with the best speakers in the world,

There are no amps that i've heard that don't act as some sort of filter, or add something thats not supposed to be there

so amplification always seems key to me...
I know it does matter whats feeding the system, but the system is the sum of all the parts..

Yes I would not disagree with any of that I just think what you can do on a realistic budget in the digital domain means you can easily put more of your budget on the speakers, so something like the Caiman with the mods deserves a lot better speaker these days

I thought that the 'flat earth' source-first argument always assumed that you were going to progressively upgrade the components after the source. If so, then surely concentrating on getting as much information into the reproduction chain at the start as possible make sense as each successive upgrade to the other components reveals more of the source.

However, if you aren't going to upgrade relentlessly, I'd have thought to obtain a satisfying system you need a more balanced approach?

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Originally Posted by keiths

I thought that the 'flat earth' source-first argument always assumed that you were going to progressively upgrade the components after the source.

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No, not necessarily; I mean, obviously, a lot of people did upgrade in that manner, but that wasn't the idea as such.

So when The Flat Response suggested LP12/LVX/Basik + NAD3020 + Goodmans Maxim II, some people left it at that :scratch:

As Linn dealers back in the 70's and 80's, we used to demonstrate the 'rubbish in, rubbish out' system by using the LP12/Ittok/Asak, Creek 4040 (in our case) and the Wharfedale Diamonds. Sure enough, you heard the best pair of Diamonds you ever heard in your life but then we used to show the customers our preferred system.

Bung on a Rega Planar-3, same Creek 4040 and a sodding great pair of SD Acoustics SD2 with their 12 inch paper cones and high sensitivity. Whack on Frankie Goes to Hollywood, Relax and pump up de volume. Stand back and watch the customers faces as they started to grin.

To my knowledge we never sold the Diamond system but we sold heaps and heaps of the 'Relax' system...:lolsign:

Did it work on any music other than FGtH?

That was THE music of the time, followed by Two Tribes. Both very powerful, dynamic recordings which showed instantly the superiority of the big SD's against the puny Wharfedales.

At that time there were masses of 12 inch singles which we used to great effect. Also very good at CD v turntable dems. Of course, we used plenty of other discs which were popular with the lads coming in on a Saturday to buy a good hi-fi system.

Two Tribes is probably one of the best 12" singles I've ever heard for sound quality.

My system is decidedly low-fi, but I only realised how good it could be with a pair of "proper" speakers... My biggest upgrade ever.

Yes - only speakers can really determine scale.

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Originally Posted by MartinT

Yes - only speakers can really determine scale.

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Oh so true :eyebrows: You may get a great sound from something small & a superb front end, but for sheer scale & impact you need to move some air ;)

Indeed, guys (I think we successfully demonstrated that at Scalford Hall :eyebrows:), but I wouldn't use bigger (and/or better) speakers without having first ensured that the system was capable of properly resolving the subtleties and complexities of the source music signal......

And that is not as easy to achieve as some people think! At least to the standards I would be seeking.

Give me smaller, 'musically capable' speakers, on the end of a very good source and amp, any day over a mediocre source and amp driving bigger speakers. The former will reproduce believable music, and the latter more likely only capable of making an 'impressive' noise.

Differentiating between a sound that resembles real music, and one which is perhaps only good for a party, is what separates truly discerning enthusiasts from those who are merely playing at it! ;)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Indeed, guys (I think we successfully demonstrated that at Scalford Hall :eyebrows:), but I wouldn't use bigger (and/or better) speakers without having first ensured that the system was capable of properly resolving the subtleties and complexities of the source music signal......

Give me smaller, 'musically capable' speakers, on the end of a very good source and amp, any day over a mediocre source and amp driving bigger speakers. The former will reproduce believable music, and the latter more likely only capable of making an 'impressive' noise.

Differentiating between a sound that resembles real music, and one which is perhaps only good for a party, is what separates truly discerning enthusiasts from those who are merely playing at it! ;)

Marco.

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Agreed entirely, nothing more to add :)