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So when is the TC-7520 SE launching then Stan?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensimilia
We're waiting :)
(But we won't wait forever. There's a new Wadia DAC out soon that promises to blow the Benchmark and Lavry DA10/11 and a few others clean out of the water)
:popcorn:
it's an interesting debate for sure, i've never heard the Benchmark DAC with my gear only at shows but at 5 times the price it's hard to justify for most of us considering how good the 7520 can sound with these cheap upgrades.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensimilia
traditionally i would rather tradeup my speakers/amps to the next model up than spend good money on exotic DAC's but messing with these opamps has just reinforced how important the start of the chain really is, regardless of amps/speakers.... once that information is lost it's gone for good.
having a blast today though - pity about the neighbours :lol:
I'll leave the TC-7520 as it is and just give the modders a chance to burn their fingers on their soldering iron. Part of the fun in owning a TC-7520 is knowing that you got a stock unit that can be transformed into something even more potent for a few dollars more.Quote:
Originally Posted by technobear
I have been listening to the WM8716 mod on the TC-7520. When fitted to the TC-7510 the results were so so. But on the TC-7520 with the THS4032 for line output and LM4562NA for headphone output it's going to be hard to beat. The detail depth is better, which I reckon is due to the lower SN ratio of the WM8716. But it could also be due to the fact that the PCM1716 is only a 8X oversampling DAC, whilst the WM8716 is a 64X oversampling DAC.
However, please note that swapping the DAC chip over is an expert only job! The chances of success in getting it right without previous experience is less than 1% I reckon.
Stan
Interesting about that Wadia.
Hmm, interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensimilia
Would you consider offering a return to base upgrade option where you charged for swapping the DAC chip?
Also, is it a straight swap or are other modifications required to make it work properly?
Thanks.
I only had a couple of the chips to try out, and they are now all used up.
It's a difficult job that requires cutting out the old chip, cleaning the area, and putting in the new chip. It is nerve wrecking and requires an eye surgeon's nerve and skill. And to do it as nicely and clean as I did mine requires several prayers beforehand...
Hi Stan,
Would be really interested in your own opinion of the THS4032 fitted to the 7510 over the stock opamp? Just about to give it ago and was curious about your own findings.
Regards
Chris
The THS4032 is a very good line driver, so it will handle even hard to control interconnecting leads between DAC and amplifier with a lot of control. It will also transform the TC-7510, but the LM4562MA is just s good in the TC-7510.
But it helps to have 4000 spare 7520's in the stockroom! :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensimilia
Well I fitted my 4032 last night and couldnt tear myself aware from it. I dont see how you can get much better than this.
Out of interest I got the improved Tirna 4032.
Couple of pictures below:
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/818...re029small.jpg
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/231...re028small.jpg
There is quite a big difference in sound signature when using one or two LT1364 opamps. I had a LM4562 in the line socket and a LT1364 in the headphone socket for a couple of days and i noticed that the high frequencies where dominating on my Grado headphones, very detailed, very forward, very dynamic, but for me too much off everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by marscay
I changed the LM4562 for another LT1364 and the sound signature changed completely. Now the low frequencies dominate much more and make the sound more balanced and less fatique. The bass now is really BIG!
I am waiting for the 4032 chip from Tirna how they stand out to this config.:)
I agree. The 4032 is superb. I would be up for a 7520 SE (Wolfson DAC & 4032) if Stan eventually decides to offer one. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
Ade
Stan.. why do you prefer the 4562 on the HPA? Is it particularly suited to your AKG 701s and you might choose differently if you had Sennheisers? Just curious, as I have two 4562s and maybe should have Tirna just send one 4032 back instead of two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensimilia
Can anyone show a pic of how to install the newer 4032 (just a pic of it sitting in the socket) so I don't screw it up when it comes?
I'm an electronic mega-dunce and I've just used Stan's photo on page 35 of this thread as my guide to which way up - his left-hand opamp is the 4032. You'll need good eye-sight though, the chip is absolutely tiny!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dougr33
http://www.beresford.me/images/mods/apcb.jpg
On the board you can see a small white arrow pointing to pin 1. This is in the top right hand corner on the board in the picture above.
I've stuck the 4032 back in after a week listening to the LT1364's. Straight away the sound is better.
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4...cturesmall.jpg
Anyone noticed the other mods on my PCB;)?
Aye, the connections at the top aren't too clear though Stan?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensimilia
There's a couple of big lumpy things stuck on it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensimilia
Thanks guys.
Stan.. about the two chips vs. the HPA? (see above)
thanks that's quite interesting, i've got another 1364 i can pop into the headphone socket so i might pop that in before the beers and see if i get the same outcome. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by rhmjmango
i've given the single 1364 a good 6-7hrs playing time today and some of the forwardness has gone and a bit more bass has developed in the last hour ......was a little bass shy at first compared to the stock opamp (about the only negative) but not much in reality - i could easily live with the 1364 as it stands tbh, definitely lively but not harsh at all for most of my recordings....i think my Arcam amps gell with them nicely.
sounds like the 4032 really stand on top though, mine still aren't with me....but the 1364 is sounding phenomenal, and i can't imagine the 4032 actually improving it lol. - played a wide variety of tunes today Devo (yes Devo rock), Get Well Soon, Hot Chip (sounds unbelievable), INXS, Massive Attack, Black Crowes, Slipknot ....all of it sounds vastly improved and the metal/rock albums have a lot more energy than before.
So what are the extra caps doing Stan?
They look to be soldered to 10k resistors which seem close to op-amp pins 8, Hmm, extra decoupling for the op-amps?
When using high current opamps it helps to have some extra energy storage close to the supply pins. Reggae and drum-n-bass lovers would notice the difference.
[QUOTE=Sensimilia;42020]I have been listening to the WM8716 mod on the TC-7520. When fitted to the TC-7510 the results were so so. But on the TC-7520 with the THS4032 for line output and LM4562NA for headphone output it's going to be hard to beat.
Stan
Hi Stan,
Is this your current optimum setup?
Could you explain your preference or suggestion to use "the THS4032 for line output and LM4562 for headphone output?"
Do you think this is better than using THS4032 in both locations?
Thanks Granville
More than one person has asked me about my preference, and in particular about how I use one LM4562 and one THS4032. The simple answer is that I am not hardwired to any particular configuration. I don't have the luxury to listen to the same DAC for too long. Every day brings new challenges and new ideas for me to try out. So I can't say what's best. I can only mention what I enjoy most.
Stan
Hmm, very interesting. I can see this suiting me nicely with my love of the bass. :eyebrows:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensimilia
So other than the 100uF electrolytic cap between the resistors, I notice that a couple of the smaller caps (LC5 and LC6) are missing in that picture. Do these need removing to make the mod work properly?
Thanks.
http://www.beresford.me/images/mods/apcb.jpg
No comment:smoking:.Quote:
Originally Posted by HighFidelityGuy
You like to keep us guessing don't you Stan. :ner:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensimilia
Sorry I got the numbers wrong, that should have been MLC5 and MLC6.
Right, so I think the new cap goes between opamp pins 4 and 8. which we already know is for input power decoupling.
The two smaller caps appear to be 100pF and MLC5 appears to be between opamp pins 1 and 2, which are output A and inverting input A respectively.
MLC6 appears to be between opamp pins 6 and 7, which are inverting input B and output B respectively.
So the two smaller caps aren't on power lines so I'm guessing they are unrelated to the new cap but with my lack of electronics knowledge I'm probably wrong. :lol:
Would anyone else like to chip in here. :confused:
Its either my eyes playing tricks on me but it seems a few resistor values in the phones section have been tweaked too:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensimilia
They are. I reduced the SPL.Quote:
Originally Posted by leo
Just thought I'd post an update on what I have done recently regarding op amps etc.
Firstly, I have decided to re-fit the 2 LM4562NA's - After quite long listening sessions, I think they have better synergy with both the K701's and the HD600's than the THS4032.
Secondly, I have never been happy with the op amp sockets - The op amps have always felt a bit "loose" in their sockets. So I removed them and have replaced with a couple of ulta low profile sockets by Mill-Max [part no 115-93-308-41-003000]. I got these from Digi-Key [part ED5308-ND] a while back for another project. They aint cheap at 80p each, but they are very good.Not only that, they sit 2mm lower than the stock socket, which has to be a good thing.
The TC-7520 is now sounding pretty good ;) Thanks Stan...
OK, that's it for now.
Ken
"After quite long listening sessions, I think they have better synergy with both the K701's and the HD600's than the THS4032."
More detail on this? After all, people in this thread never mentioned their amplifier and speakers combos.
Which, as far as i know, are almost as important as both the DAC and output circuit type in use.
Or is this "the end" to the opamp replacement-project already, so the only remaining and convincing option may be replacing the DAC itself?
That would be sad. :(
Regarding the announced Wadia 121:
http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Wadia_151_121
http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2009/wadia_need_next/
this thing will be expensive, but i expect it to be a killer DAC.
Have a look at this DAC shootout:
http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-100-1382.html
If you want me to translate sopecific parts, ask for.
The nutshell:
The "Wadia 12" DAC from years ago totally sunk them all, soundwise.
With the op amp upgrade, I didn't want a one trick pony, but ones that suited both my main headphones via the headphone socket in the 7520 and the line-out through my existing headphone amplifier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietschbox
I try to limit my comments on actual sound, as this is very subjective but for my ears the combination of LM4562 op amps works best.
This to me is the fun of DIY - Trying different mods etc to achieve (for me) a better sound. :)
Ken
I mentioned the combination of THS4032 on the line output and LM4562NA on the headphone output as my own preference. So there is still a bit of experimenting to be done for headphone users.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietschbox
The TC-7520 is one of the very few DACs that has user friendly modification potentials. But I am quite happy to take your deposit for your next DAC. You still got till the end of the year before I can figure out what new idea to come up with.Quote:
Or is this "the end" to the opamp replacement-project already, so the only remaining and convincing option may be replacing the DAC itself?
That would be sad. :(
Privately, many people have emailed me with their views that the TC-7520 is also better than the same DACs the WADIA was compared against. So nothing new there. If you surf the net it is very noticeable that the TC-7520 is hardly mentioned in any tests against other DACs. The same was not the case with the TC-7510, where people made great efforts to try to point out that the TC-7510 was bettered by DAC X/Y/Z. Early days yet, but I suspect that the TC-7520 is going to take something special that can outgun it, especially with the various opamp mods.Quote:
http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-100-1382.html
If you want me to translate sopecific parts, ask for.
The nutshell:
The "Wadia 12" DAC from years ago totally sunk them all, soundwise.
Stan
Ah well. This takes some weight out of Sponge's post. Misunderstood line out was meant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensimilia
Well Stan. I don't know what this means. Is this misplaced criticism of sorts, in response to some honest comment ("would be sad")? After all, modding, as you yourself put it, means challenge fun and options for sound improvement at low cost. Sponge's post seemed to deliver a serious blow to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensimilia
If it was not criticism, my honest opinion is that waiting to the end of the year is quite risky these times. Noone knows when things will really start to fall apart, so they can officially usher in their beloved global tyranny, on their own manufactured petty pretexts and silent consent of ignorant masses.
popped in my TH4032 opamps this morning after using the LT1364 for a few days of heavy use.
i must say that the 1364 is a much more revealing opamp than the 4032 with my gear but i have to agree with the others about HF ringing/brightness ....on some material it is extremely fatiguing - but this opamp really shines at times.
4032 sounds quite neutral and balanced so far - what to try next?? :lolsign:
Get that Wolfson DAC chip in.Quote:
Originally Posted by marscay
Nope. I mean what I say. If you need a Paypal invoice in case you think I am not serious, let me know:).Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietschbox
my hands aren't steady enough for that kind of surgery.Quote:
Originally Posted by trailer
I have never attempted to change opamps before, even those in sockets. Would someone please advise a novice such as I how to do it with the 7520 without shorting out and damaging sensitive electronics!
I believe you need to earth the components somehow before starting, to prevent static damage, and do you then gently lever the existing opamp out with a small flat screwdriver? Then gently press the new ones into the same slots?
Thanks Granville
Hi Granville,Quote:
Originally Posted by ReachtheSky
First off all, disconnect the DAC from the mains. I know it's obvious but I've got to mention it.
You need to make sure that you are connected to ground to prevent static damage. The best method is to use a proper anti-static wrist band connected to a special plug that goes in a mains socket. You can pick up a wrist band kit from most electronics suppliers. Using a proper wrist band will make sure both hands are free and they are also safer as they have a high resistance between you and ground to reduce the chance of electrocution. This is however unlikely when working on a low voltage DAC that's not plugged in. ;)
Failing that, just make sure that you keep in contact with something that's grounded as much as possible. Something like the outer metal of a phono plug that's connected to your amp, this will usually be connected to ground through the amp. Make sure you are grounded when touching the DAC or the separate opamps.
For removing the opamp, the best way would be to use a proper IC extractor tool, you can get these from electronics suppliers too. The proper tool pulls the IC out evenly and makes sure the pins don't get bent. Failing that I'd recommend something like a small flat screwdriver but preferably something that's plastic and not sharp. It's easy to slip and hack through the copper tracks on the PCB.
On the 7520 there are some small caps that are close to the opamp socket. These make getting to the sides of the opamp quite tricky. Make sure you don't press on these as they will crush quite easily.
Also, make sure you take your time and ease the opamp out bit by bit. If you rush you'll more than likely damage something.
Once you have the old opamp out, you'll need to form the pins on the new one to make it fit the socket. It your replacement is the same package type as the old one i.e. it's a silicon chip with 4 pins on either side, you will need to bend the pins in towards the chip slightly as they are usually too wide appart. If you are using a metal can opamp, you need to make sure you form the pins into the correct shape and order. This can be a bit tricky. Using some stripboard can help here as you can push the pins through the holes and get them the right shape. You'll then need to trim the pins to the correct lenght on this type of opamp.
Next you need to make sure you put the opamp in the socket the right way round. On a silicon package there is usually a dot next to pin 1 or sometimes a dent on the end between pin 1 and the opposite pin. In the case of the dent, pin 1 is on the left of the dent when you hold the chip so that the dent is at the top. The pin on the opposite side is pin 8. The opamp socket also as notch/dent at one end that should line up with the one on the opamp.
If you're using a metal can opamp, pin 8 usually has a tag above it. But it's always wise to download the data sheet and double check this.
If you get the 4032's on the adapter board, this can be tricky to tell which is pin 1. Personally I look at opamp (might need a magnifying glass) and turn it so I can read the writing on the chip. The bottom left pin is pin 1. Follow the copper track on the adapter board from pin 1 to the leg it's soldered to and make sure that goes to pin one on the socket.
Once the opamp/s are fitted, double check everything and then plug it back it.
That's the basics. I'm sure there's plenty of info about this online too, perhaps with pictures.
I hope that helps. :)
Hi HighFidelityGuy,
That certainly helps. Thank you very much for you extremely detailed effort to explain exactly what needs to be done when changing these opamps. I have a pair of THS4032 on order from Tirna elec for the 7520.
There may be one or two other non-electronic guys like me out there who’ll appreciate your instructions.
Cheers Granville
No problem. :)
I certainly wouldn't class my self as and electrics guy but I have had quite a lot of experience working with static sensitive equipment like PC's etc as I work in IT. So I'm ok with swapping parts etc but that's where my knowledge ends I'm afraid. :)
Hi Stan,
Would you consider selling the "opamp board" from the 7520 as a separate item for modders?
I was thinking today that it would make life a lot easier when trying out different opamps and other mods to have two boards to swap between.
What do you think?
Thanks.
Nice combo!
LT1364 + LM4562(headphone)
Good balance of sound. Give it a try and see (hear) for yourself.
Which way around?Quote:
Originally Posted by rhmjmango
And what particularly did you like about the respective opamps?
OK, here is my take on the op-amps I have tried to date:
NE5532 - A Toyota Corolla chip - Cheap, reliable, perfectly capable but not able to make the pulse race.
OPA2132 - A Honda Accord chip - Does everything very well, would probably last a lifetime, solid and dependable - But pretty dull.
LT1364 - A Subaru Impreza chip - Very capable, lively yet practical, appeals to a certain type but can tend to be a bit harsh when driven hard.
LM4562NA - A BMW M5 chip - Designed for high performance but still very practical, smooth and sophisticated but just a BMW at the end of the day.
THS4032 - A Ferrari 365 chip - High performance, dynamic, very exciting and never dull, but hellish temperamental. No room for the kids.
Which do I drive?
A Beemer of course :)
Ken
Wow-I have a Beemer and a Ferrari :gig:
Love your descriptions Ken.
I know you preferred the M5 for headphones, but which did you prefer for line out or preamp?