Choosing the 'best' turntable and ignoring 'flavours'

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I certainly agree with the notion of removing the flavours we can hear, but if you can't hear the flavour that I can hear, it will sound great to you and crap to me.

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You may be right, but my view is that when discerning listeners (people who aren't interested in creating 'flavours' on purpose with hi-fi) are presented with two turntables playing an identical piece of music, the one that imposes the least signature on the music is the one which is usually deemed as superior.

It was interesting to note some of the comments we received about my modified 1210 in the AOS room at the recent Scalford Hall show, where people were saying that they had never heard a turntable sound so "stable" and so "real" and "all of a piece" before (these are actual quotes) - and guess what T/Ts they had at home? The usual low-mass belt-drive suspects! :eyebrows:

Anyway I'm off to bed now, old chap. We shall continue our chat tomorrow :goodnight:

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

You may be right, but my view is that when discerning listeners (people who aren't interested in creating 'flavours' on purpose with hi-fi) are presented with two turntables playing an identical piece of music, the one that imposes the least signature on the music is the one which is usually deemed as superior.

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How true that is. The most neutral will almost always be viewed as the most accurate. And of course the most neutral will be viewed as the least coloured. I used to have a Rock MkII until I heard a friends KAM DJ deck. This was far more lively and far less coloured than the Rock. I just couldn't live with it anymore. The Linn Basik that I have now is purely a stopgap, purely a temporary fix until the right thing comes along.

One thing I would like to say is that I find these DJ decks very digital in their presentation in that they are very dynamic and very uncoloured with a slightly forward sound. Is that good...? Well it is if that is your preference. This now becomes the key. What is your preference as that is the sole thing that makes it right or wrong. I personally don't want an overblown woolly sound that is full of flab. I want something that is trim, fast and lean... just how I like my women...lol. I have an age to make up my mind as I now have no money (again) but it's going to be a journey full of dangers as I will be buying secondhand only. I will not pay twice the true value for an item just because Joe Bloggs Audio has a shop.

I will get back to this point in the future whereby I have to decide which deck to buy. Given what I have experienced on this forum to date, I'll get plenty of help.

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Originally Posted by Marco

My point was that, in my experience, low-mass belt-drive turntables such as Regas and LP12s, and other decks of their ilk, impose more of a sonic signature

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What's with this 'low-mass' thing?... you mention it quite often in various threads!

Sticking with the LP12 V SL-1210 for now we get:

SL-1210 @ 11kg (source - http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/p...Product_ID/228)

LP12 @ 10kg (source - http://linn.co.uk/files/0981e726/Son...n%20(1008).pdf)


So the SL1210 only weighs 10% more than the LP12, and the LP12 doesn't include an arm!... hardly a vast difference I'd say. :scratch:

And... oh never mind.

I'm bored with this Technics V 'Fruit Box' thing now. Put another record on please! :)

It's not a "Technics vs. fruitbox thing", Mikey - those are only two examples used during the discussion. It's about being aware of what 'musical' actually is when applied to a turntable :)

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Sticking with the LP12 V SL-1210 for now we get:

SL-1210 @ 11kg (source - http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/p...Product_ID/228)

LP12 @ 10kg (source - http://linn.co.uk/files/0981e726/Son...n%20(1008).pdf)


So the SL1210 only weighs 10% more than the LP12, and the LP12 doesn't include an arm!... hardly a vast difference I'd say :scratch:

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No, no, you're completely missing the point... :doh:

A 'hi-mass' belt-drive turntable looks like this (the tangential arm is incidental):

http://www.avguide.com/review/kuzma-...-record-player

I.E, big, heavy, bulky, 'massy' - in order to deal effectively with the issue of seriously accurate speed stabilty, which direct-drives like the SP10 and SL-1210 get right without the need for all that 'mass' and bulk.

As an aside, that'll be one hell of a turntable (I rate Kuzma T/Ts and arms highly) but how many people have got the room to house one of those beasts, not to mention the necessary funds to acquire it? An SP10, for example, is a far more 'elegant' (i.e neater) and cost-effective solution to the same problem.

Having observed the Kuzma above, you should now realise why things like an LP12 or a Rega are deemed as 'low-mass' ;)

Marco.

Mike,

I don't think that the relative mass of the Teccie and the Linn comes into play particularly. One of the advantages, to me, of the Technics is it's relatively, compared to the bastin plinthed 401 I had, low mass. I'd wager that the Teccie platter is significantly lighter than the LP12s.

cheese

I've just explained the 'high-mass/low mass' thing, dude :smoking:

The 'high-mass' belt-drive route and that of high quality direct-drive, with reference to seriously accuate speed stability, are one and the same. It's just that the former requires a behemoth statement of metal in your room and the latter, erm, doesn't!

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Having observed the Kuzma above, you should now realise why things like an LP12 or a Rega are deemed as 'low-mass' ;)

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Agreed... compared to decks like that most other TT's are low mass, no matter what drive system is used.

I'll stick with my UFO. Extraterrestrial space ships can defy the laws of Earth physics anyway! :eyebrows: :lol:

I think all decks add some flavour to greater or lesser degree's, what matters most is that it's to 'your' taste. The rest is just gravy. ;)

Maybe this thread should be in the foodie section! :lolsign:

Whose heard of a PID Algorithm... Me for one. What does it do...? It controls things like quartz servo's. That includes the speed stability on a Technics or similar deck. How does it do this...? By over compensating then undercompensating then overcompensating then undercompensating ad infinitum. The end result is that it never actually meets the end speed. It is always hunting one way or the other. The PID functions of the algorithm can be adjusted to minimise the hunting but it still never gets there. So what is the error...? Well, the accuracy is probably out of measurement but please do not assume that just becuase it is digital and quartz it is infallible... It is not...!!! This is basic engineering and maths combined.

This is simply not true. Direct drives are controlled by a PLL and that is an analogue device. This is an old and very stale chestnut!!

:bag:

Dave

I agree that a Phase Locked Loop is an analogue device but there is no reference to the Technics being controlled by one. In fact, there is no reference that even KAM decks are controlled by one.

The point of this is just to make the point... digital and quartz does not mean it is the best. The finest photographs the world has ever seen have all been shot using film and still are albeit using bloody great sheets of film but if we are coming down to subtleties then everything must be included. Something must be responsible for a Technics or KAM or whatever being so neutral. I haven't a clue what that could be but this is a brill thread.