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I know lol, there's certainly enough room in there for one!:D
I think it was essentially a clever design that just needed some further refinement... The Koss are being shipped today from Bulgaria, so shouldn't be long until they arrive - full review to follow:)
Marco.
The Celestion 15s have arrived, and after giving them a good clean inside under the grilles, removing years of dust and yellowy nicotine (yuk - this type of exercise always reminds me of just how filthy a habit smoking is:spew:), and quick polish of the exterior wood, which is in remarkably good condition, I fired them up....
All I can say is :wow::wowzer:
These sound quite different to the XRs, and not in any way inferior, that's for sure... Just laughably good for the £89.00 I paid!!:lol::mental::D
[A lot] more later!!
Marco.
In the meantime, some pics...
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1...922/MY5hT7.jpg https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1...922/uOCgT5.jpg
Spot one of the Yamaha subs on the floor!;) Just showing how nice condition the wood is in:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1...923/fgh9lZ.jpg https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1...924/JdhDKC.jpg
And a few shots of the gear making up the downstairs system, with the Sony amp, Virgin V6 box,Beresford DAC, also the Paul Hynes PSU, for the RPi:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1...924/3NXSW7.jpg
The other Ditton 15XR performing duties as a centre speaker (as part of the home-cinema system):
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1...923/pzQt1m.jpg
Very pleased with these Ditton 15s! :cool:
Marco.
They look pretty tidy. Andre's favourite Celestion IIRC
Digging the 'Old Charm' cabinet.
I really must dig out my 15's and give them a spin sometime.
I think his favs were the 33s and these, one of which I used to use as a centre speaker (forget the model number):Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/102...921/9zDSvT.jpg
But as far as the 15s go, yes he preferred the originals :)
These just sound lovely mate, stupidly good for £89... You'd need to put a zero on the end of that and head well up towards £1k to get the sort of sound these Ditton 15s are producing, for smallish stand-mount speakers.
Yup, they're superior to the XRs (even modified/upgraded as mine were) - simply because they use better quality drivers. The top end in particular of the HF1300 ultimately has more texture and clarity than the soft-dome units on the XRs, and even though the measured frequency response rolls off as it does, 'dull' they ain't!
There's a lovely 'crisp and sparkly' openness to their treble response, and the midrange is fabulous, making vocals sound rich and sonorous, but also unfailingly believable and lifelike. Bass hits harder and deeper too, than it does with the XRs, and it's also more rhythmic and tuneful with it.
The only thing I would say is I can still detect the telltale 'signature' of electrolytic caps, which imbue the presence region with a touch of hardness and a slight 'nasal' quality, which I know would disappear by fitting some quality polypropylene ones, such as I did to the XRs, but it's nothing major.
Dunno if the crossovers in these are the same, but once I get more used to their sound I'll investigate that area, and possibly also replace the speaker terminals with something better, as things have moved on rather drastically in that area!
I'm only getting away with using the rather flimsy stock ones, as I use Chord Sarsen speaker cable in this set-up, which is very thin (but good quality): https://www.hifix.co.uk/chord-sarsen...able-per-metre
Anyway, off for another listen - I may be some time!:eyebrows:
Marco.
Well spotted, Roy-boy! You like that stuff? It's very sturdily made (solid oak), and the traditional style suits the room. We have a fair bit of it:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy S
Marco.
Yeah defo, Andy. You've got XRs though, haven't you? They're good, but the originals are better, IMO (as I've outlined). TBH, very rarely have I heard speakers get better with more modern incarnations of the same, as cost-cutting inevitably enters the equation (where at one time they just built stuff using the best of what they had available, regardless), and quality suffers accordingly.Quote:
Originally Posted by REXTON
The original Ditton 15s (these ones I'm using from the 60s) are from Celestion's 'golden era'... Here's an interesting link to read, outlining the history of the company: https://www.bygonetones.com/the-hist...celestion.html
Sadly, most of these great British loudspeaker companies have long gone, or are simply trading under the brand name, but are now a shadow of their former selves., often now Chinese owned. I think the only ones left are Spendor and Harbeth, still doing things in the time-honoured tradition.
Marco.
Yes, my telly & av gubbins sits on/in one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...cfb5867f_o.jpg
Good stuff, matey... Now THAT is a TV!!:eek::eek::D
Marco.
Only a 65 inch :D
Did you model it on your waistline?:lol:;)
Marco.
Never quite reached those dimensions in spite of my best efforts!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
If I get much slimmer I'll disappear ;)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...9635ae26_o.jpg
I'd bang it:eek::bum:
Marco.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
I had a pair of 15XR's (two pairs in fact) then I went onto the original 15's many many moons ago, a slightly later version of yours but with the pressed metal surrounds on the drivers and the HF1300 tweeter. I also use a pair of Super Tweeters with mine and a few others mods, recap, rewire, new binding posts etc. I might be tempted to do some more modding at some point.
too much hair, and tits are too small :ner:Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy S
Good stuff, Andy. With these early 15s I'm not going to rewire them, as I don't want to change their character too much. A cap upgrade, yes, if it works out. If not, I'll put the old ones back.Quote:
Originally Posted by REXTON
Sometimes with these old speakers, the 'voicing' (and subsequently) their musicality is achieved by them being the SUM of their parts, and so you can adversely disturb that (and their balance) by messing around too much. TBH, there's not a lot wrong with them in stock form. The worst part of their design, which was simply a sign of the times, is their rather flimsy (but well enough made) binding posts.
However, I've ordered some decent small spade-connectors, which will improve the connection over that offered simply by wrapping bare wire around the terminals, and if that sounds ok then I may leave them 'as is', as I'm using thin speaker cables, so don't need hefty terminals... Anyway, we'll see how it goes!:cool:
Marco.
Hmmm, the likes of Proac, PMC, ATC, Acoustic Energy and even good old B&W might argue with that! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Yes, but what I meant was making speakers in the 'BBC tradition', as in traditional standmount designs seen in the likes of Spendor's 'classic' range, SP1/2s, etc, and the whole of the Harbeth range, plus true timeless classics, such as the LS3/5a.
How much of that sort of stuff, and crucially *VOICED* as it once was, with the same sonic goals, is still currently being made?
Whereas at one time, you had Rogers, KEF, Wharfedale, among others mentioned, and yes Celestion making truly wonderful sounding examples of such, and which got the human voice *so* right - and it is precisely in that area where these original Ditton 15s shine:)
Nowadays, at least whenever I've heard examples purporting to be what I'm referring to, from the companies you mention, such as Proac, PMC or ATC, their voicing/sonic balance is TOTALLY different, and in my opinion nowhere near as natural sounding or musically accurate. It's more 'hi-fi' than music.
In my view, we've lost our way, in that respect, in terms of designing speakers that, above all else, sound MUSICAL, rather than simply 'sonically impressive'.
Marco.
Just to update on this.... I fitted these small spade connectors today, which I ordered from Flashback Sales: https://www.flashbacksales.co.uk/aca...38.html#SID=81Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
And I'm more than happy with the sound, so I'll be keeping the binding posts original. Therefore, only a possible cap upgrade to come, and that will be it, but I'm in no hurry to try that, as the speakers sound superb just as they are:)
Marco.
I rewired my 15's with Duelund cable which is tinned copper to replace tinned copper. I'm happy with how mine sound.
No worries, that's cool. I won't be going to that bother, though:)
Do you know if the crossovers in the 15s are the same as those in the XRs?
Marco.
Yep I think the XO's are pretty much the same. Just one cap 4.7uf I think. You might benefit from having the crappy connectors removed from the XO to driver units. I just rewired my driver units straight onto the XO, you can do the same with speaker cable if you want to push things a bit further and bypass the binding posts.
i doubt it,the xr's also have a pcb type cross over,i still have a pair of them from when i owned the speakers.
I can answer that question now, I found the thread and you can see what I did to the XO.
https://theartofsound.net/forum/show...lestion+ditton
Always liked that avatar.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrenHW
Apparently, this is the crossover inside the 15s:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1...923/tJcNHL.jpg
If so, it's an easy cap upgrade:)
Marco.
OMG I use these and have 100's on the shelf £1 eachQuote:
Originally Posted by Marco
LOL
https://cpc.farnell.com/pro-signal/p...e%20connectors
Mine look nothing like that, mind you mine are an older version on the 15's. At least it's only one cap to replace.
I’ll be perfectly honest, I have absolutely no idea what the massive fuss is about the LS3/5A or why good examples command such preposterous prices.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
It was designed by the BBC as an outside broadcast monitor that was mainly used for vocals and I will grant you it does have a sweet midrange. However, overall I personally consider it to be a competent but ultimately limited small loudspeaker. Nothing more; nothing less.
As to the BBC voicing - this is merely one way of doing things and, whilst there are some examples that I do like (such as the bigger Harbeths and Spendors) I wouldn’t necessarily say it is the be all and end all.
Lol... Never even thought about you mate, as I don't associate you with something as 'low-brow' as that:DQuote:
Originally Posted by The Vinyl Adventure
Next time I'll remember;)
Marco.
Ah ok... I guess the only way I'll know what's inside mine then is to take a look!:eyebrows:Quote:
Originally Posted by REXTON
Marco.
Sure, not the "be all and end all", but to my ears, with standmount speakers, hugely desirable over the type of presentation mostly offered now by their modern counterparts!:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Beobloke
Marco.
Yep get your posidriver out and take a pic. You'll be buying vintage caps next to "tune" them :lol:. This is a practice which a BIG over in Japan where vintage mullard caps/transistors go for silly money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
I've never seem the point of any expensive miniature two-way speaker.
If you've got that kind of cash to spend, get something large enough where the size is not compromising everything else. And if you really don't have the room (you're living in your car for example) just buy a cheap one. Or stick with headphones.
Lol - well, that's what might be in there already, especially with the early vintage of these particular speakers. I've seen pics of PYE caps attached to the crossovers of some early 15s, which are essentially rebranded Philips/Mullard.Quote:
Originally Posted by REXTON
However, no I won't be doing that. One area where things have no-brainer moved on BIG TIME, is in the quality of electrical components available, such as capacitors. The best of today's polypropylene varieties really are in a different league, as we've learned so much in that area during the last 50 years!
Shame I can't say that about many of today's speakers....:rolleyes:
Marco.
I get where you're coming from - well I would do, wouldn't I, with the 'wardrobes' I've got sitting upstairs:eyebrows: - but done well, small (or smallish) standmounts have an 'intimacy' and lack of coloration to their musical presentation, simply due to the lack of box.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
In that respect, if you're willing to sacrifice ultimate low-end heft, then the results can be magical with *some* types of music, but of course not all, and the types of music that they can excel at, aren't really to your taste.
The good thing about the Ditton 15s, is that their ABRs really do help in making them sound much bigger than they are, filling in the low-end nicely, and adding a goodly dose of 'wallop' to bass lines (and as I heard last night while watching a movie) crash/bang action sound effects (in conjunction with my twin Yamaha subs)... Plus, you still get their gorgeously fluid and open midrange, which I can tell you is better than that of many floorstanders!;)
I love them to bits, as aesthetically they fit in really well with the room, and sonically with the Sony amp, which is no slouch at 2-channel duties (with all tone controls and effects processing defeated), and so can happily listen to music through them for hours:)
One area too where they're notably better than the XRs, with being more efficient, is that you don't need to turn the volume up as much to get a 'room filling' sound. I think they're around 90db, which is a lot for small standmount designs, and that really helps them 'project' sound into the room with consummate ease, giving superb clarity to vocals, which is ably apparent simply by listening to TV programmes through them, and how accurately they reproduce the human voice.
Interesting review of them here, back in the day, by the one and only HB: http://www.audio4maniacs.co.uk/blog-...nditton15.html
Marco.
The review appears to be incomplete as it just seems to stop part way through the description and there is no conclusion. There are also a couple of what I'd describe as minor mistakes in Hayden's interpretation of the design or at least they don't match my thoughts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Such as, Geoff?:)
In terms of the review, it's a bit jumbled up, due to whoever it was having copied the pages in the wrong sequence, but it's all there if you look and can manage to decipher the content in the right order!;)
Marco.
I was talking about miniatures like the LS3/5a, KEF LS50, Harbeth P3 ESR, not larger standmounts like the Ditton 15. They're a decent size, big enough to avoid some of the unacceptable compromises.
They do have 90dB sensitivity, probably an easy load for the amp too.
Given how cheap you can buy decent old speakers these days I'd have gone for a three-way speaker for the telly myself. In fact I did, although they cost a bit more than your Celestions:
https://i.ibb.co/7NGdxKt/B-O.jpg
www what is my screen resolution com
Just about large enough where the size itself isn't a serious compromise.
Some more pics, as the light is much better today:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1...922/VRxs64.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1...923/z2kZVa.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1...922/sNOV4o.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1...923/jf20JO.jpg
I've removed the silver plastic surrounds from the grilles, as I didn't really like them (easily put back on though if need be), plus the cabinets themselves have been polished a bit more! Looking good, I think:cool:
Marco.
They look good. My kind of speaker design to be honest. I prefer straight forward ‘classic’ enclosures which don’t draw unnecessary attention but ooze class. I hate looking at drivers, I do appreciate them but prefer them working behind the scenes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah, sure, but remember I'm using them with subs (for TV and movie duties, otherwise just as a stereo pair), and there's no lack of detail to the midrange, even in the absence of a dedicated driver, quite the opposite...Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
Plus, if you count the ABRs as 'drivers' (and regardless they DO contribute significantly to the overall sound), then to all intents and purposes, the Ditton 15s are a '3-way' design:)
And yes, the 90db efficiency certainly gives the amp an easy load (150W into the fronts), which really works well in this application, effortlessly filling the room with a punchy 'big-boned' sound!
Marco.
P.S I like those speaks you've got, what are they?
Cheers, Tony. I was going to have the cabs French polished, just to get them looking mint [which is what I like with vintage gear, as I'm not into tatty-looking old tat, no matter HOW good it sounds], but dunno now if they need it. It would certainly save me the £240 I was quoted!:DQuote:
Originally Posted by mightymonoped
Yes, I know what you mean about grilles, and as long as they've been well-designed (and integral to the sound) I tend to agree, which applies to these Celestions. With the grilles on, the sound (and in particular stereo image) is definitely better defined/balanced and more natural, plus I dig the '60s retro-chic grille cloth'!:eyebrows:
Marco.
Beovox MC120.2
Don't know if you have done this already but if your amp allows it, cut off the signal to the mains speakers about 50, 60 Hz or so, so only the sub is handling the lower stuff.
The problem with a two way dome and cone is the main driver having to do both bass and midrange, so the more bass duties you can shift to the sub, the better.
Nice... Yes, I've done that (70Hz works best here), and yes that defo improves matters:)
It's laughable how good this little system sounds, given that in total it's cost less than £2k - and that includes the TV!
All I want now is a minty pair of Ditton 11s, to use as surrounds.
Marco.
Excellent - so you've effectively turned it into a 3 way speaker system. Are you using two subs or just one?
It's interesting how having a Flatsreen adjacent to speakers affects the sound. My Kuro is nearest to the Left speaker and affects the volume somewhat, so I have to sit off-centre to adjust for imagery.
Two 10-inch subs, dude:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
Marco.