What device are you using, are they costly? I want one!Quote:
Originally Posted by AJSki2fly
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What device are you using, are they costly? I want one!Quote:
Originally Posted by AJSki2fly
It’s not a competition but quoting the internet (and it’s associated grammar) is not a winning combo. More pertinently, purely stating well established doctrine, does not form a point of view nevermind an argument. Sorry, I’m tired, but if you have no worthwhile technical input to give then don’t kid yourself - Google is not always your friend! If you read what I have written then I am, in general, supportive of that which you have done.
Edit: don’t waste your time waiting for me to reply again.
Well it may sound silly but it is an iPhone accelerometer app. The accelerometers built into modern mobile phones are surprisingly accurate. Maybe not as accurate as a Brüel and Kerr accelerometer and tape recorder but not far off and it does the job.
You can dump the data to a spreadsheet and then put it on a graph and directly compare before and after, amazing what modern tech can do.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I agree, not in any way definitive, but interesting, and relevant, to a degree.
Thank you for your interest and your thoughts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJSki2fly
Brilliant! Thank you.
Indeed. The 'proof of the pudding', and all that...Quote:
Originally Posted by struth
Mark, I think you're being a little hard on Peter and making the discussion more confrontational than it need be. I understand that you're interested in the design principles of the Pylons and what makes them work, but could you please be a bit gentler about it and less interrogatory?
You yourself admit that the feedback Peter's had has been 100% positive, so what he's designed must be doing something right. Therefore, let's keep it friendly, and when you're drilling down into the details, avoid things becoming unnecessarily argumentative. Cheers:cool:
Marco.
Well said Mr. Moderator. I have an Odyssey deck, ( the picture is posted within this thread, ) amongst others, which now sounds great. I know what I like but if you do not like it then so be it. I listen with my brain and ears and not through anyone else. Well done Peter. The thread was labelled "cheap upgrade.....". Job done. T.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by TAD12
A big thanks to Peter from me for what it’s worth.a special chap and I don’t just mean his pylons.
The Tonearm cable off the sme 309,is held in place with the Michell Clip , or cable tie , take the cable out of it , this is picking up any noise from the TT, the sme cable seems to pick up any vibration near it now ,,and some how support it with a piece of foam ,,to stop it pulling the arm down on one side ,
pete
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...16&oe=5D3AAD28
Here's my Gyro SE with Pete's Pylons.
Thank you Peter!
looking great , i hope they give you a lot of pleasure ,,and the deck stays with you for a long time,
just an up date to stop confusion ,, the measurements needed are the 3 holes in the bottom of the chassis and the 3 holes in the top off the chassis,, i have found because the decks may have had the upgraded suspension before the current owner it means the spring retaining washer in the base may be the wrong size ,also had a lot with 3 different size holes,, both top and bottom,,
After 4-5 hours with your pylons on I have to say I’m having a bittersweet experience.
Whilst the Orbe is still better it’s not as black and white..... and that’s messed with my head. My Orbe and it’s arm and cartridge are 4 times the cost of my gyro and arm and cartridge. But they no longer sound 4 times better..... they did before.
a new user of pete's pylons,,
Have to admit that this thought/question crossed my mind before: How would a Gyro, say with Pete's pylons, the main bearing ball replaced with a ceramic ball and the suspension posts treated with isolating/damping material under the balls compare against a stock Orbe assuming both were using the same arm and cartridge?Quote:
Originally Posted by gwernaffield
My money would be on the tweaked Gyro!!
The good news, at least for the guy with both Gyro & Orbe, is that he can apply the same upgrades/tweaks to the Orbe.
he has a certain competitors pylons in the orbe,, he though the ones i did where just for the gyro ,,and now he wants a set for his orbe,,
That's a very good question Blake....and I'd say your suspicions were quite correct...however, once the Orbe has the pylon upgrades..it will give the same effect to the Orbe and send it too, to a higer level again ....The pylons are genious...Al..Quote:
Originally Posted by blake
Hi all i have to put note if you use the ceramic bearing in the main please make sure the deck is earthed, as the ceramic bearing may increase the static on the deck , i have the deck earthed and use an earthed sweep arm, so i never noticed this before ,
Been using the pylons on my Orbe for a long time (through the various incarnations) and it is now superb in what it delivers sonically.
Not managed to compare it to many other TT's after the change but not bothered as from where it started to now - different league :D
i am happy you are still enjoying them ,, as you know that the cost is lower then it should be with a total loss on the first sets,,and continuing to keep to that was not an option ,, with the machine shop set up fee of £90 per set and then the cost of the run
Michell have changed the sizes of the holes again in 2017 ,,,also there seems to be a lot with 6 different size size holes, 3 top of the chassis and the 3 under the chassis ,, have gone from an average of 34.8 to 33.5 . 33.7 33.2 small size 28.9 ,,to 27.8
it would be easy for me to make them under size, but then the chassis will slip,,the whole point is to stop this with out the use of a secondary device like feet or string ,, or the need to drill the chassis to do that ,,
every set is a one off ,, to fit that specific Gyro /Orbe, and not put together with some string ,,
with regards to who is making them that is a secret ,, they are on sale , through me,,, but a new website will be launched,,
recently i was asked how they work , if i put that i might as well not make them, , there are fans of these and fans of solidair pylons both have different principles,,both go about this in different ways,, Mine from an engineering back ground and i will not comment on the back ground of solidair as i do not know,, and will not leave Derogatory remarks,,about a competitors product ,,
oh and apparently i am a very unhelpful person ,, who is angry ,, LOL ,, on pfm thank you for this and the interest in my product
pete
After reading the comments and many questions , all I can say is this. In my humble opinion I think these Pylons, that I have designed and had machined, are a vast improvement over the oem springs, I do not have any graphs and I do not do misleading reviews, or make any sort of misleading claims, and I cannot answer technically, as to how they work except to say, with the 100% positive feedback, from the people who have invested in them, that they improve the performance of the turntable they are fitted too, to a very high level.
The proof of the pudding, is in the tasting, which has been left to the Turntable owners who have purchased them, from all around the globe. The feedback which has come back, is 100% positive. Every single buyer is delighted, with the results they have, from fitting this pylon upgrade.
They fit the Gyro, Orbe, and Odyseey ,, Gyro 'SE' old and new,, The springs are replaced with 18 0 rings, which are suspended on a very special machined castle nut and a base made by an engineering company to my design.
I have not got any test sheets, to show anyone and will not pretend that I do.
I do not know anyone who will provide a test sheet or a test house to do this.
I rely on my ears and the ears of the many users of my Pylon design, who report back to me with their findings, which as of to date, is100% positive feedback.
At present, you can buy the pylons from True point audio., who also manufacture upgrade parts for pink triangle turntables and SME arms , until we can get a web site up and a trading standards approved ad.
All the very best and thank you all, for your interest and feedback in my pylon design.
Pete
Thank you tad i forgot about the odyssey and i own one lol
Peter,
Please don't forget The Odyssey. Your pylons and ceramic ball replacements certainly worked on my deck.
Well done. I was a bit sceptical at first, but the WOW factor took over.
A picture of my Odyssey in in this thread somewhere.
Kind regards.
Tad.
thank you for the interest in this product ,
Hi Michael,
Yes, you're correct, but Peter has already paid for a trade account. He's just waiting to come up with a name for the business, with his partner, and then his trade room will be opened, and things will move forward from there:cool:
Marco.
Ooo trader...you dark horse....Excellent....best wishes Peter with your venture...I wish you every success...Big Al...
How about ‘Pylons R Us’Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Good luck Peter - i’m Still enjoying mine
Best Regards
Thanks Big al and bill it still has not got there yet, as long as the Tax is paid,i am happy ,, the real add will be then placed.
The thread has never had a trading name,or will ever have one, Cheap up Grades is meant to help the owners of the Gyro and Orbe their has never been a trading name or a trading address,,
all the best pete
peter and michael, will you both cut this out. i will be going through this thread and any posts deemed out of order will be deleted. consider it a warning.
lets move , thanks.
i note that Grant (and also Geoff) have had to step in and deal with a little 'fracas' earlier. Please remember guys that we don't allow 'baggage' from elsewhere (other forums) to spoil discussions here, so leave that stuff where it belongs.
Also, could everyone (especially Michael) please remember that Peter is essentially an official trader here. The only difference is that because he's still to finalise a suitable name to trade under, he's not yet been given the appropriate title, or a dedicated room to use to promote his products.
However, this thread (and any others like it that Peter chooses to post), which will be moved into his trade room in due course, acts as a permitted advert for his products, and his right to promote his new business as a registered trader. Therefore, the stipulated rules on 'Thread Crapping' on trade threads apply here too, as indeed they would if this thread had been posted in the trade room. In future, punitive action, in the form of a week's ban, will be taken against anyone seen to break those rules, which some of the recent (now deleted) posts would've qualified as.
Therefore, please bear that in mind, and from now on let's keep this thread strictly constructive and on-topic. Cheers!:cool:
Marco.
No need for any PMs, Michael. I understand, but clearly there is history between Peter and you, which is causing some aggravation, and so he's not interested in discussing anything with you here, including prices. So please leave it there, respect his wishes, and from now on avoid this thread.
Indeed, any more input from you here will be removed without further notice. Cheers!
Marco.
Dear Marco thank you , ,the problem with pricing is that every set is custom , the price is being dictated by the machine shop,, due to the nature of what michell has done to the holes every set is Custom, and made to the size of the holes given ,,
this has caused a problem with the pricing, if i wait and order more sets the cost comes down , as i do not have to pay the set up cost which is passed on,,, then the problem with the hole sizes, each and every Chassis have different size holes, on some 3 different size holes in the bottom part of the chassis and 3 different size holes in the top,, so now in order to get the cost down and order a full production run of 100 sets
the size will be reduced to a one size fits all,even these will have to be tested first , with the base being 34.2 x 28,2 pre 2013 after 2013 33.7 x 28, michell reduced the hole sizes , but have now in 2017, to a 33.5 x 28, 33.77 , and 33.71 in 2017 ,so no uniformity in the chassis, ,
the problem will continue to rumble on , i have a set coming back the first in 30 sets , These will be used for testing and then destroyed, the reason they were sent back is they dont make the 'speakers disappear ', like the springs,, but they do a lot of other things, as i have said previously i think these are an improvement to the OEM springs, and that is all,,
the owners have been good enough to leave their thoughts and feed back , even the person who is returning them can leave feedback if he wants to,, so i can go forward and people can see that not every thing is rosy , i am a honest person that is all,,
The gentleman who is returning them had problems in fitting them due to the acrylic being out on the plinth,, the cost to him just being the post , back.
i must get the T and c's sorted out ,before any full commercial product is launched on the web, at this moment until that set comes back ,,they will be machined down to one of the sizes above so the loss is not total and used as test sample,
in future if they stay customized/bespoke /tailor made , product , i will not accept them back with out the understanding you have to pay 50% of the set up cost if not %100,, if not canceled with in 14days this is when they will be machined,
hopefully i can sort out the one size fits all and that will not happen ,
i have been testing using a rubber washer on the base to help stop chassis from twisting ,and not use the ptfe washer , reduce the size of the base,, so it will fit every deck out there,,
so i am sorry i just cannot answer what is the price now, the kit price is set ,, through true point audio..which is now on hold,, i just cannot keep absorbing the loss,like i have been in the past ,, and continue to do so,
kind regards
peter
Having dealt with Peter in the early incarnations of his Gyro upgrades, can absolutely say he’s coming from a good place.
He’s wanting to pass on his hard earned work and benefit to others, which is what AOS is all about.
Contribution like this is to be commended imo.
+1. Peter has worked hard on these upgrades..he has my full support.. Not only is he a clever chap...he is a gentleman too...
+2
Feel Peters' pain as he had a good idea which we helped him fine tune and get a good product only to be knocked back by poor specs and standards by the manufacturer!
I have never had any issues dealing with Peter during the creation and final incarnation of his design and it is a shame the way it has ended up.
Hoping he manages to sort out a solution as he does deserve it.
Without question. Peter deserves some very serious praise for the development of the Pylons as well as making them available at a very reasonable price in terms of the performance they deliver; even with the recent increase in price, they are a bargain.
On top of that, as mentioned, he's a pleasure to deal with and bends over backwards to accommodate and make purchasers happy. Clearly the issue of non-standard sizes, etc. with the Michell product has complicated things somewhat for him. Seems to me he has gone the extra mile for everyone that's purchased.
Sadly, it is the nature of the internet (and particularly audio forums) that there are always detractors, and in many, many cases they are people that have no experience with the product or item they're slagging.
Pete's product, service & integrity gets the absolute top & highest rating from me. Another happy owner from the other side of the pond, and I know that the numbers of us over here are growing having had communication with a few of them.
Thank you all for the above comments , i hope to have every thing sorted one way or another, i have put them on hold for now,, i have to try a solution to the holes out first ,, with the help of some of the members , so no measuring will be needed,to help sales,,
have a happy Easter
pete
I initially tried the Ceramic (Black Si3N4) bearing balls in the main bearing, and liked the sound over the original stainless steel, which is over 15 years in place, as my ORBE was bought in 2000 and has the AC Motor & QC control.
But since this was the start of a set of changes, I tried the Delrin bearing balls to the suspension towers, but also fitted the Solid Air Pylons, which I had from before Christmas. Took some time to get the height correct on my Orbe, as the motor has a top piece which overhangs the motor unit to match the suspended sub-platter. There is a cut out ring on the motor housing, you need to ensure that the sub-platter is in the middle of, otherwise it bangs against the sides of the motor housing.
Then tried the Delrin bearing ball in the turntable bearing too, to match the suspension - all good, improved soundstage and dynamics. Tried the suspension tower covers and the soundstage collapsed - so off with those.
Then tried the Ceramic Si3N4 back in the main bearing again & further improvements over the Delrin.
So have now a set of Alumina Oxide Ceramic Balls (White) to try in both the main bearing & maybe the suspension posts, however there was a settling period with the changes in suspension.
Certainly worthy of experimentation.
Will dig the proper camera out and post some photos of my deck & support structure.
Does anyone know what changes where introduced in the Orbe SE-R?
Thanks, Simon
as far as i can tell they have changed the bearing to ceramic , the plinth is composite now,, , the motor was adjusted in height to accomodate the changes to the plinth , pictures on the hifi lounge,,
http://hifilounge.co.uk/michell-engi...se-r-turntable
cheers
pete
Do you know what type of Ceramic in the bearing? And a composite platter?Quote:
Originally Posted by gwernaffield
Will try giving Steve Roland a call - we spoke about replacement lids for my Orbe, belts & my ISObase.
i was told it was the white alu ox , the platter is still the same it was the plinth that changed , i do not think steve will sell you one as it is may be a special like they did the odyssey .only so many made,
Ok, looking again at the pictures posted https://theartofsound.net/forum/show...rbe-SE-R-Build! it looks like it is a SE spider on a custom ISObase with the holes for the motor and under the arm.Quote:
Originally Posted by gwernaffield
I have the full double plinth of the ORBe on a rectangular ISObase with tender cups under the ISObase tenderfeet.
So will need to allocate some time for swapping the Black Ceramic to the White then.
What’s the recommendation for the bearing ball in the Suspension posts? I can’t adjust the height of the sub-frame against the motor, due to the top cross section on the ORBE motor housing, and the cut out collar.
it should take the ceramic white ones in the towers, because you are using the same size bearing ball now,, with a orbe it does not have the drive groves like the gyro ,, everything will work with some adjustment if you are going the orbe-se-r way you will have to put the motor pod on a block of wood or rubber to get the height unless you have a machine shop near to to make a spacer but the cost out ways the gains,, as you can see from the picture of the motor on mine ,due to the 4 spiders and a plinth i have had the base made bigger in diameter and in height ,, then added a bronze spacer to get the height ,the motor now weighs 3kg , it also looks like the tube on the motor for the orbe se-r does not have the lip , like the normal orbe,
https://6qlyjq.db.files.1drv.com/y4m...&cropmode=none
i have been asked the best way to set the gyro up,, with out any Mods ,you have to follow the Michell instructions,, i am not sure how the Cam effect works on the old style adjuster ,, on the new style the spring base acts like a cam centering the motor pod
and tightening the belt ,, the Michell bounce i think happens when the motor pod is clear of the chassis after getting the platter level ,,with in the spec that Michell has set out in the instructions,,
you will need to do the same with the pylons,, accept there is no lateral movement ,, just vertical,, they still should be the same height ,, if you have installed the 3 pads in the suspension ,,you may have to use the bottom drive groove in the platter to keep the height of the belt in the correct position ,, that is all,, or add a rubber pad to the base of the motor ,,the same as above ,,
in doing the pylons no one has said if the o-rings supplied have been too short ,or too long ,,
keep well
pete
The o-rings are the perfect length Peter...Quote:
Originally Posted by gwernaffield
Thanks Alan for letting me know,, all the best pete
with regards to the orbe se-r ,, i think i have been led down the garden path by Michell with regards to the bearing ball being used ,, i have been contacted by a Orbe Se R who says it is just the std ball,, or possibly a tungsten ball,, the information i was given By Michell was it was a ceramic bearing ,,The gentleman has now fitted a set of Pete's pylons and is happy with the out come,, on his ORBE SE-R ,, i hope he will do a review /feedback later on in the week which i will publish ,, in the mean time, i am sending 5 sets out that are one size fits all for test ,,so i can get them made
until that is sorted these are still a custom fit will be made and the holes in the chassis will need to be measured ,,
just had an email with regards to the bearing ball in the orbe se-r ,, they now say the std ball is fitted ,, due to the static they were getting when the ceramic beraing was fitted,,to the orbe se -r ,, i have to say i am not surprised that michell have changed their minds, with the cost being higher on the ceramic ,, and the different size holes,,
pete
Hi Peter.
Here’s a brief email about my recent turntable changes and tweaks.
Please bear with me as I’m not a big “audiophile speak” person.
Last year my turntable from a gyro se to an Orbe SE-r. .
The change was obviously immense.
Then I changed the pylons for the solidair ones. I was instantly impressed. Bass was bigger, more thwack, soundstage wider and deeper.
Then I got new hifi racks so I could run both turntables side by side.
While the Orbe is a bigger more powerful sound I always loved the speed and fun of the gyro.
I decided to upgrade the pylons on the gyro because of the improvements I got when I did on the Orbe.
I’ve always loved handmade/artisan or bespoke products, when I saw you making pylons I thought I’d give them a try.
To be honest I was put off when I had to measure the hole sizes…. Not only could I not use a ruler I had to borrow a bloody engineering tool. ����
Anyway…. I did and they arrived. Spot on fit.
Now here the thing… the changes in the gyro were huge. Far bigger than I got on the Orbe.
Before the sound between the two was always black and white. As it should be the Orbe and it’s bits being about 4-5times the cost.
When I put your pylons on it narrowed the gap by a lot…. So much so I was pxxxxd off that they weren’t as night/day now… the Orbe was still far better but the huge gap between the two had gone.
I decided to order another set of yours and see what would happen.
All I can tell you is the difference between the solidair ones and yours is massive.
Everything again is bigger wider deeper, more snap on bass notes.
The gap between the 2 turntables has been restored. It’s back to night/day…. It has to be your pylons… 100%.
I’m so pleased with them… you definitely know your stuff and I’d consider them an essential part of any Michell turntable.
I’m not going to rubbish the solidair ones, I was pleased with what they did, BUT…. I have to say yours blow them out of the xxxxxxxx water..
Thanks again.
Kind regards Gary. Orbe se-r owner ,,,,
Custom Version made to measure
Excellent Gary...I'm pleased you are enjoying both of your turntables, the way they should sound..These pylons are certainly a marvelous piece of kit..happy listening...Al..
i think this should be taken to pm...thanks
i recently had a question on static ,which i asked Jonathan Nye about he suggested to use a continuity tester and check the earths,,, make sure all the earths were in contact with the Chassis , the arm board /arm and bearing spindle,, i had removed the paint under the chassis where the screw comes through ,, this gave a better earth contact ,,,because the paint was acting like an insulator,, then checked the Arm board earth to the spindle,,, with a ceramic bearing fitted ,, to make sure the earth loop was completed ,,,it was,, so no problems with the earths to the phono stage and out down to the Russ Andrews Rf block and out to the earth in the house,, i then checked the TransRotor sweep arm that has an earth ,i was in for a surprise,, although the body was earthed the arm it self was not ,, i think this was due to the clear coat that was on the sweep arm, or the hole it sat in having some thing left in the hole after production,, i had to drill the hole deeper ,, Tap the hole under the top of the balance part of the arm , this now is earthed,, so no problems with static ,, even with the ceramic bearing ,,
pete
I'm sure posterity will be fascinated.