Hi Simon,
I don't think that Brian was being at all condescending - he's just not like that. Perhaps you've misconstrued his post a little?
In any case, I'm sure that he will come along himself soon and clarify :)
Marco.
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Hi Simon,
I don't think that Brian was being at all condescending - he's just not like that. Perhaps you've misconstrued his post a little?
In any case, I'm sure that he will come along himself soon and clarify :)
Marco.
My apologies, Simon. My rant was not aimed at you, merely occasioned by your juxtaposition of detail and precision with timing. There are those who claim far too much for the engineering. It helps sell expensive boxes.
Sorry all - I did kick off a bit there. Apologies all for being a bit sharp.
Labarum: You can borrow my copy of Janine Jansen's four seasons any time, it's really slow on the Caiman ;)
Simon
My wife has noticed the additional box on the HiFi rack. I explained I can now make out the words on Lambchop's Oh Ohio album. She responded "But why would you want to?" I love that woman.
I like my Seasons fast and not often - they remind me too much of the telephone queue "Your call is important to us"!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashmore
But thanks for the offer. :)
What HIFI should be posting a test review of the Caiman in the next few weeks according to their forum site. I am also looking forward to the comments of new owners who got their Caiman this week:).
Stan
Well Stan, that's a leading question if ever I saw one, so I'll be first - why? what are the differences with this week's Caimans compared to the earlier versions?Quote:
Originally Posted by StanleyB
Any idea how the review went?
Could it be the new PSU (at a £15 premium possibly) I ask myself?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_UK
Cheers,
Stan, I hope you're laying in a good supply of Caimans. I am going to need at least one more (and maybe two).
:confused: The Caiman was out of stock for several weeks, and I have only been able to ship some off this week again after the delay. So now there is a new group of Caiman owners whose views would be most welcome in this thread:).Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_UK
Stan
Hope iv not opened up a can of worms here!!
Mark:o
Ah, sorry, so I read more into it than there was! 2+2 doesn't = 5... :doh:Quote:
Originally Posted by StanleyB
<Move along, there's nothing to see here>
If I may refer to earlier posts in this thread with regard to timing etc.I accept that any piece of hi-fi is indeed just a piece of electronic equipment,but I do think the particular design of said piece of equipment affects our perception of how it plays music.The reason for this post is the direct-coupled amplifier prototype I am fortunate enough to be in possession of at the moment,driving my electrostatic loudspeakers.I have to say, the sense of "speed" this amplifier imparts to the music played through it is staggering.The way it defines the leading edges of drum beats and cymbals just has to heard.I can't adequately describe it.It does however,make all the other amps I have sound slow and pedestrian by comparison.Now I'm not saying the amp itself has better PRAT or whatever you wish to call it,just that the design of the amp and the way it plays music is very different to any other amp I've ever heard.Make of that what you will.
Ah, 'speed' certainly is a quality of both electronics and loudspeakers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amplifier
Electrostatic speakers are among the fastest, but horns also can be fast
http://www.audiocircuit.com/index.ph..._Quo-O-A01.htm
Horns are not in vogue at the moment and are expensive to make.
Closed boxes and reflex enclosures are slow in comparison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanleyB
Still running in Stan but impressions are of a very clean presentation without any hardness or upper mid sharpness. The top end is particularly open and detailed but with no razor sharp edges to be heard, its very easy to listen to and a noticable step up from the 7510 even with the various mods. The Bass quality is very good as well and in balance with the mid and top...I'll compare in depth later this week with my other DAC's...
Hi,
Even though I live in Canada (not the usual market), Stan was nice enough to send me a Caiman, which I looked forward to listening with great anticipation, given all the buzz in this forum. I've owned a Benchmark DAC-1 and was more than a little curious to see how the Caiman would perform against it at about a quarter of the cost.
It was no contest. The Caiman sounded as good or better than the DAC-1 right out of the box, and seemed to be decently broken in after only several hours of playing. The vocals are more natural, the soundstage bigger, all with greater detail. As a result, the Benchmark is up for sale. I am waiting with great anticipation for the upgraded PS Stan has mentioned.
There has only been one glitch-whenever I put a new CD in my transport, there is no sound for about a second or less after it has started playing the disc, so it is disconcerting to realize that I’m missing that first little bit of music. Has anyone else reported this sort of problem-on the Caiman or 7510/20? It’s a minor annoyance, given how good the Caiman is at everything else, and any info on this would be appreciated. Thanks.
Bill
Hi Bill - I too have noticed this on my Caiman - I assumed it was a "feature" of the DAC, in that as far as I can tell it "goes to sleep" when it is not receiving a signal and "wakes up" when it gets one (apologies everyone for my use of technical jargon! ;)) Sure Stan can confirm or deny - but mine is defintely doing the same - I've got used to pressing play, then immediately pressing the back button once the sound comes on which obviously counters the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by CanDAC
When you start a CD, the Caiman internal clock locks on to the CD player clock in order to give a jitter free reproduction as possible. However, this locking process relies on reclocking and that has a certain amount of delay, which can vary with the transport that is feeding the DAC. That's why you get that fraction of a delay. If you skipped to track #2 and then back to track #1 you'll notice that initial loss of sound is not there anymore. It's only from start up of the CD.
If we come up with an ingenious in-house solution, I shall offer you a free correction as long as you help out with the postage :-) .
Regards,
STan
Does this silence problem afflict all Caiman DACs ? I don't have any such issues with my 7510.
Chris:)
Well the silence does seem to be deafening since it appears Stan may have shot himself in the foot,seemingly posting as a newbie and answering himself! :confused: Or is it a fault with the board?
I looked at those posts and decided that CanDac copied to the forum something that Stan sent to him privately.
If Candac had known the board software better he would have posted:
Quote:
When you start a CD, the Caiman internal clock locks on to the CD player clock in order to give a jitter free reproduction as possible. However, this locking process relies on reclocking and that has a certain amount of delay, which can vary with the transport that is feeding the DAC. That's why you get that fraction of a delay. If you skipped to track #2 and then back to track #1 you'll notice that initial loss of sound is not there anymore. It's only from start up of the CD.
If we come up with an ingenious in-house solution, I shall offer you a free correction as long as you help out with the postage :-) .
Regards,
STan
That's a newbie posting an email from me to him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Tait
Stan
As I though, Stan :)Quote:
Originally Posted by StanleyB
Back to the question. Sometimes when listening to my Squeezebox via the Caimen I think there is a pause as I engage the SB, then the slight 'click', then the Caiman sound. Am I kidding myself?
That sounds the same "symptom" as with the CDP (via Coax) - I've not noticed it on the Soundbridge, but if it is happening then probably the same "clock locking" described above?
Possibly. I connect the SB to the Caiman with coax. I haven't tried the toslink and I cannot remember the effect using USB, which I don't often use.
Yep, I think we had a slight misunderstanding there! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Labarum
As you were, guys :cool:
Marco.
That's a relief! My humble apologies.
My 7520 does the same thing. I think this is normal for a lot of DACs. I've seen it in one way or another in my previous DACs.
To clarify, this is what I hope everyone is talking about;
When you 1st power on your DAC (7510, 7520, Caiman etc) the time it takes for it to sync up to the digital source, mine being an airport express connected via toslink, the DAC may miss about half a second of the beginning of a song.
Thereafter, however, the DAC will sync immediately to any song you throw at it from that source.
If the DAC is powered off then you start the whole syncing process over again.
I also own the EMU-0404 USB, and in order for it to sync the first time, you have to power it on as the music is playing. Otherwise it will just sit there silently blinking at you "external clock, external clock!"
I've also read several reviews of DACs in Stereophile that experience similar behaviour.
For all case, just leave your DAC powered on.
CD
Explains why I've never heard it do that-I always leave dac and cd player powered.
Doesn't explain it for me - Caiman has never been switched off and the CD player has only been switched off once since I've had the Caiman - I'll experiment some more - but switching sources may have the same effect as powering off?
A quickie regarding "speed!"
Fast bass often means NO bass - or an over-projected mid. So many speakers with a properly extended bass are regarded as "slow," even if they're not booming, purely because of that extra octave or two. Most "flat earth" speakers have a rapid rolloff in the bass and/or the mid is severely peaked up - IMO..
Ah yes. Getting the bottom two octaves right is very difficult and very expensive. It still requires big drivers and a lot of expensive cabinetwork. The laws of physics will not be flouted.
Therein lies the problem-at these frequencies you hear the cabinet more than the driver.An OB would produce a more accurate sound IMHO,at least as long as the driver is up to it.
Right with you there Ali, but unfortunately you end up with similar issues to using 'stats - the damned things need room to breathe in order to get the best out of them.
Chris:)
Going back to the point about silence at the start of CD's, if the mastering engineer has allowed sufficient silence time (say, 2 seconds) before starting the mastering process, then the problem should never arise, as the DAC has 2 seconds of silence to sync up with before the music starts.
So the problem is actually not a DAC issue, but one of mastering.
Chris:)
I'm hoping that was a tongue in cheek remark :scratch:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stratmangler
I agree about laws of physics etc (as an ex-physicist!).Quote:
Originally Posted by Labarum
But it is possible to get very extended bass from very small cabinets. Just not at the same time as high sensitivity. It tends to be a bass extension / sensitivity trade off and less sensitivity tends to rob music of its dynamics, apart from also needing a dirty great big amplifier to drive them. Also the crossover tends to be horribly complicated with nasty phase angles and impedence dips, which makes it even worse.
But deep bass from small cabinets IS possible. Look at the REL Q-series subs. They were only circa 12" cubed - which isn't a lot of volume - but managed to get down to around 25Hz -3dB. In the case of the Q200, with "only" a 200w amp.
I don't know why more speaker manufacturers don't offer passive floorstanders, but with an active bass section with a big d-class amp driving the bass enclosure.
They could be very compact, offer excellent bass-mid-treble integration, and outstanding extended frequency response - say 20Hz ~ 30KHz - all fairly cheaply.
The problem with fully active speakers is that they cost a fortune (if their amplification is any good). And fully passive means you usually either have limited bass response.
The hybrid I suggest above would be just ideal. But no-one seems to make them - apart from Martin Logan and may other electrostatic manufacturers.
Alternatively, big is beautiful - and gives effortless deep bass :)
Doesn't transmission line design give extended bass without loss of efficiency?
You will get deeper bass with a bigger box but that just gives you more resonance.The only way to avoid it is to get rid of the box.
Yes it does, but withdrawbacks. It helps getting deeper notes but its difficult to keep the response flat because of the resonant frequency of the line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
Hi
I have the TC7520 and i was planing to do the dac upgrade but i don't know anybody here in the US who can do the change for me. Do you recommend i sell the tc7520 and go for the Caimen?thx Milo SLC, UT
I too am *this* far away (a gnat's crochet) from getting a StanDac, but for me it's which one... do I bite the bullet and 'go Caiman' or will a 7520 be enough for my humble system? I intend to get a 'Homaric' cable for whatever I get. This will sit between my Sony 303 ES and my Yaqin...
Cost is a bit of an issue. My recent 40th has swollen the coffers a bit but not enough... I want to know if I need to keep on saving...
Jason
Hi Jason,
I've tried loads of dacs commercial and diy, in all honesty I've yet to hear anything that would beat the 7520 or Caiman in their particular price range
I personally prefer Caiman based although the standard 7520 is also very good.
As a matter of interest, have you compared Stan's products to much more expensive DAC's?Quote:
Originally Posted by leo
I like the Caiman, but I just wish it had remote control. As it does not, I have to run it through my pre-amp. What I really want is a DAC with a remote volume control that I can plug directly into my power amp.
I am thinking of getting a Bel Canto Dac3, but at £2,000 it's a "considered purchase" as they say.
Do you think the Bel Canto will be significantly better than the Caiman? Or maybe just as good? Or worse?
I'd hate to spend £2k and find it sounds worse!!!?|!
Hi Chippy,
I'd advise you to forget all about the Bel Canto (it's a typical example of commercial over-priced so-called 'high-end' kit that flatters to deceive) and PM Duncan to build you one of these copper DACs, shown in his system pictures here, should you wish to change from the Caiman:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3936
He'll build you one for about £400 and it'll piss all over the Bel Canto, trust me. Steve Toy (my co-administrator) uses the Bel Canto CDP and we were over today doing an A/B comparison between it when used as a standalone CDP, and when Duncan's DAC was connected, bypassing the BC's internal DAC.
Quite frankly, just how much better Dunc's DAC was compared to the internal one in the Bel Canto was embarrassing, bearing in mind that this is a £2400 CDP!!! Based on the evidence of what I heard today, I cannot see how the Bel Canto standalone DAC would be significantly better and would even hope to challenge the copper DAC.
We also heard how Duncan's Sony Playstation 3 (a £250 supposed 'games console'), connected to his DAC, streaming lossless files completely outperformed the Bel Canto playing the same music on CD! The latter sounded quite broken, musically, in comparison.
Duncan's copper DAC is undoubtedly one of the most outstanding bits of kit I've heard (I'm certain that it would give my £6k Audiocom modded Sony transport & DAC a hard time) and it is a veritable bargain. You should PM him and get more info.
Anyway, I just thought that I would relate my experience to you. What you do from here now is up to you :)
Marco.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chippy_boy
I've not compared them directly no but didn't feel any commercial ready built stock unit I've heard over a grand warrants the price imo especially since going the diy route, some may give a marginal improvement, I've yet to hear any commercial unit that would totally blow it away
If you want the cosmetics the more expensive route is probably the way to go
I've only heard the Bel canto in another set up which I didn't like too much , I'd seriously consider borrowing/loaning one first before you get too excited about buying one
Hi Leo,
Did you read my post above re: the Bel Canto? ;)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Yes, from what I've heard its not just the Bel Canto's thats shite with the analogue outs from their digital gear;)
BTW Chippy, wanting to change to a 2k unit just because the Caiman lacks a remote seems a bit OTT :)
Well, Leo, based on what I've heard from both the Bel Canto (as a DAC) and the Beresford 7520, I'd confidently say that the Caiman is likely to be better than both!
Marco.