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Yup - you're right.Quote:
Originally Posted by hifi_dave
If I were in Paul's position, if he didn't want to go to the bother of what I suggested before, I'd still move the 'TV stand' as far back as it will go, and the speakers forward, if necessary, so that the end result is that the 'TV stand' is as far out of harm's way as possible. Doing that will defo improve the sound of the system :)
Marco.
I agree with both Dave and yourself Marco. During listening, the speakers do get moved out a little and I will be pushing the central clutter back by at least 10 inches once I'm properly on my feet (difficult to do on crutches).
I did think about shifting the TV and moving all the other gear but it would have upset the way the room layout worked a bit too much and would have messed up the surround sound (not the end of the word as that can be re-set).
However, with an acoustic panel at the front to damp unwanted reflections plus the speakers moved out a tad, I can assure you that it sounds fab.
Living rooms have to remain living rooms for the rest of family and my good lady wife wasn't keen to have things swapped about, so I've made the best of things. Its pretty typical of many living room set ups I think and despite the drawbacks does sound fab! Anyone happening to be down this way is more than welcome to pop in for a listen.
Funnily enough Dave we have a very heavy chenille blanket for this very purpose! It makes a huge (positive) difference when this is draped over that big slab of a TV, but as mentioned above, I sometimes place one of the acoustic panels in between which works wonders too. We have (out of shot) a very heavy lined set of chenille curtains closing off the room from it's open plan adjacent room to the rear and when closed, that also helps. Lost of little tricks like that are worthwhile in a living room environment IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by hifi_dave
Hope you're coping well, Paul, and on the full road to recovery!Quote:
Originally Posted by Reffc
Totally agree, mate. Enjoy - I don't doubt you've got a good sound going on :)Quote:
Living rooms have to remain living rooms for the rest of family and my good lady wife wasn't keen to have things swapped about, so I've made the best of things.
Marco.
Tried another few amps recently: Berning OTL thingymajig and an Art Audio Quntet. The Art was lovely with the Tannoys. I Think it was fitted with KT77's. Very open and clean sounding but lacked a little grunt (its only 15w/ch which isn't enough really). The Berning was more SS sounding, a little grainy but quite punchy (70w). TBH, I preferred the balance of the Linear Audio IA30 which has been hooked up (review purposes) for the past week or too. In fact my stand in amp (ION Obelisk) hasn't had an airing in a few weeks!
Turnberrys are well run in and now sounding far more coherent, smooth and above all believable and refined. Something they weren't straight out of the box.
Looks like the 845 has left Italy and will be in the UK next week so with a following wind may have it for next weekend, else it'll be the following Monday or Tuesday. It's going to need a few of us to heft its 80lbs bulk into place due to the physio's instructions to not shift anything heavy. Should also be able to turn the heating down a few degrees as this thing dissipates 600w!
Now with just 450 miles to go until it reaches its final destination is this:
http://www.jordanacoustics.co.uk/php.../648249135.jpg
80 lbs of Italian muscle amp.
Report on union with Tannoys to follow :barrel:
Looks like a whole lot of that is taken up by the huge toroidal transformer :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Reffc
10kg more than the Unison Research S8 845SET I had.
(which was pants with the Tannoys, I have to say).
What's this pounds pish all about? My Copper amp weighs 45kg, so where does that sit in the 'fatty' stakes? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Too Phat mate...! .Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Lol.... I make it just under 100 pounds - defo into the 'chunky' territory! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Always a bonus.
aaaz it sounz?
Yes, I find that, too! Come on, Paul - how does it sound? :exactly:Quote:
Originally Posted by hifi_dave
Marco.
Ow zit saaaand den?
Pretty damned impressive.
Massive headroom, lovely tonal balance which most surprisingly is very neutral
Lovers of rose-tinted lush sounding 300B SE amps need not apply. This sounds nothing like any 300B or 2A3 amp I've ever heard.
Those giant triodes and the huge over sized trannies (they need to be for SE amps), or rather the way they are wound seem to result in one of the most neutral but powerful sounding valve amps I've heard. It has real authority and very powerful, well controlled bass. Treble detail is a delight, and it extends pretty high. It's ever so slightly recessed in the mids but then again I have been listening to an EL34 amp for several weeks plus the amp does need 50 or so hours to bed in properly.
Can't really give any meaningful feedback until I've had a chance to listen properly and critically and that can't happen until I've run up a fair few hours with it. First impressions are however very good. It is a superb match with the Tannoys.
Great to hear, Paul.
It certainly looks like it can do the job. Interesting to see this SE / Tannoy combo too.
How does it get through something like Megadeath, or Slip Knot, Cradle of Filth? - lol... (not expecting you to have anything like that)
LoLQuote:
Originally Posted by The Black Adder
Closest I have is probably Led Zep...Limp Bizkit and a few other Spinal Tap -type groups!
It rocks with the best of them no problems at all. Great attack, bass and control. Extended too but not in the usual one-note "thump thump". The texture and subtleties of bass (yes, bass can be subtle!) are very clearly show cased.
Mastersound have done a cracking job on their tranny and circuit designs. This is the only SE amp that I've tried that really works well with the Tannoys.
Couldn't resist it :doh:. A set of MINT vintage Chatsworths (12 inch MGs I think) came up at the right price and are now joining the Turnberrys.
There's only one way to find out which one is best.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..............................FIGHT!!!!!
We'll see how the Chatsworths compare.
Oooh, that should be interesting, Paul! :eek:
Marco.
:popcorn::popcorn:............:partytime:
Be interesting to see how the Chatsworth fare compared to the new upstarts.
Thought you were happy with the Turnies? Lol... You will be after a new amp next!
LoLQuote:
Originally Posted by The Black Adder
No danger of that. It was an experiment and the speakers were at the right price so I'll lose nothing if I move them on. The Turnberrys are great and there is no intention to sell those, they're fixtures here. ;)
You may find the Chatsworths a bit warmer in the bass, but they are a sealed cabinet, so shouldn't boom. The compression horn tweeter sounds very different to the tulip waveguide unit in the Turnbury, you may find it slightly less smooth at the top end, but to compensate, there's definitely more depth into the midrange. I find the pepperpot Tannoys such as the Chatsworth allow me to hear so deeply into the soundstage that you feel you are hearing every little thing in the detail and and positioning, with a great sense of depth. Much depends on the amplification and source obviously.
I'll be interested to hear your conclusions. I'd avoid doing A/B comparisons, that can just get frustrating, get used to the Chatsworth sound over a few days I'd say.
:worthless:
Come on then, let's see some pix of the Chats!
.... more bloody Tannoys .... mutter, mutter .... :eyebrows:
:eek: Pretty much what i found coming from SHL5's to my Chatsworths Geoff, took me a wee bit of time to attune myself to the Tannoy sound and totally love them now. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by walpurgis
Looking forward to your thoughts Paul.
Pics to follow in a bit...too busy with other things right now and still haven't hooked them up! Will get round to it mid/end week.
Comparisons against the Turnberrys may be interesting but really not that important as they're different beasts. What will be interesting is to see which I prefer! There's also (maybe) another set of something completely different that are asking to be snatched up and given a good home but the jury's out and space will get a bit tight!
Most of the vintage Tannoys I've heard do have a richer mid range (newer ones seem to have better transient response and bass punch) and also manage to generate impressive scale for a handful of watts. The crossovers are all original so I'm guessing that whatever they sound like, replacing the caps with Jensens or similar (or replacing the whole crossovers) would be worth while.
I'll probably do the crossover work myself and rewire the internals with some decent cabling. Be a nice little project to keep me out of mischief.:)
I'm looking forward to your review of the Chatsworth's Paul.
Geoff. :)
Many thanks for your threads on here and the Wam in respect of your Turnberry's, I'm loving mine.
Well, finally got round to trying the newly acquired big Tannoys today and was in for a few shocks. Shock nr 1 was that they weren't what I guessed (Chatsworths) after checking dimensions for each model and are in fact the much larger and much rarer Studio Mansfields. Cabinet quality is the best I've ever seen for vintage Tannoys and a cut above the domestic range. 3/4 inch ply front baffle boards, 3/4 inch very dense chip board panels finished in high quality Teak veneered with a ply base exactly as per my Turnberrys down to the metal dome feet.
Cabinets are almost factory fresh, you'd never guess that these were nigh on 40 years old! Looking round back, they have a factory inspection sticker dated 1974 and are sealed infinite baffle cabinets. very stiff heavy and strong. My guess is 70 to 80 litre enclosures, some 33 inches high, 26 across and 12.5 deep.
Drivers were the next shock. Foam surrounds are completely shot (clue #1) and they are 12 inch units (clue #2). HPDs?
Drivers duely whipped out. In mint condition all except for the surrounds which have perished. HPD 315/8 units with consecutive serial numbers. Connector quality is light years ahead of modern Tannoys; these are one very high quality set of Tannoys and a cut above the average Lancasters and Ardens in build. 85 watts power handling and rated (in these cabs) to 20 Hz for full range studio monitoring....just a real shame I can't fire them up!
Have decided to invest and get the drivers restored to as new condition, no expense spared, using the proper kits (£200 for the kit alone). Crossovers are original and continuity testing shows 100%. No leaking caps but could probably do with replacement. On the whole, in magic condition and as good as it gets for Tannoys of this vintage.
A little more digging and speaking to a few people in the recording industry later and traced a friend who used these when they came out, along with Lockwoods, for all studio monitoring. He rated the Mansfields very highly indeed, saying that they provided some of the best SQ of any 12 inch Tannoys he used. Great bass performance apparently and better treble than the MG drivers in similar cabs plus could be driven much louder.
Have decided to have someone else professionally refurbish the drivers as if I move them on, its better to have the label of a professional with a track record other than yourself.
Start of an interesting project I think. Will probably hang onto them for a little while but happy to take any interest checks from you guys if you fancy a go with these after I've had them done. Pics to be posted when I can get round to it!
Sounds like you have the hpd ones.
Pics {cough}, pics!
;)
Marco,
Any Pics
I'll post some pics up tomorrow :)
Photos as promised:
Main cabs in great nick and very substantially built (read "heavy!)
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/...ps91e196ac.jpg
Grilles in lovely condition:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/...psb47e5081.jpg
Typical sight when unveiling HPD's for the first time on years! It's fair to say that these will need a re-foam!
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/...psd35519c2.jpg
Driver details: Drivers removed and taken apart. mint condition except for foam surrounds. Carefully reassembled ready for transport and repair:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/...psde5e605c.jpg
All in all, a great find and I look forward to having them singing in probably a few months time.
Lovely stuff nice find.
They look really nice Paul. I love the look of the Teak finish, beige grilled Tannoys.
A couple of points, the cones you have there are probably nicely run in. If you put new cones in the speakers won't properly 'come on song' for months, as the stiff new cones will have to break in and develop their regular break-up patterns.
I'd suggest putting new foam surrounds on the old cones. It's actually fairly easy to do on the HPD 315 as the whole cone assembly can be detached by releasing a few screws around the front suspension and rear spider, then unsoldering the lead out wires. Good new surrounds are available and if you are at all practical you should ba able to do it.
If you look here (link below) on AOS at my recent renovation of my Cheviots it will guide you through the process as the drivers are very similar. Yours are actually easier to work on as mine had glued in front suspension.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19555
Contact me if you'd like advice or an opinion on any of it.
Geoff.
Thankd Geoff
may take you up on that! Had someone offer to do these for a barter trade, as part of me thinks when moving things on it's always better to get an established dealer stamp on the repairs (can affect resale value) but I may give them a go as long as the voice coils haven't been damaged. What about shims, dust caps etc?
You should not need to remove the dustcaps. Some people use shims, but a bit of patience and care will centre the coils without the need for them. I describe how it's done in my renovation. The whole job reasonably easy on the HPD 315.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reffc
I wouldn't worry about resale value, if they look and sound right, you'll have no bother selling them. Lets face it, you have little to lose if you'd already factored the cost of replacing the whole cone assemblies, not cheap! If you bugger it up, you can still go with the new cone option. Although, as I said there are benefits in re-using the old cones. My surrounds came from Australia via eBay and cost me a bit under £50.
Well I'll be testing the voice coils today. They should read about 10 Ohms (treble unit) according to Lockwood Audio. That'll tell me whether I can get away with just the foam surrounds. They pointed out that lifting the ribs to tuck the foam surrounds in was tricky (I see you managed it!). I think I could re-foam them no problems but would rather have them uprated for improved power handling and I'd know they were good for another 30 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by walpurgis
Lockwood's charges are very reasonable, so it hinges on the voice coils condition really. Either way I won't lose anything on them. Lockwoods confirmed that they're a very rare and sought after pair so worth doing properly rather than me just re-foaming. I'll be re-wiring with high quality cabling and inserting new high quality binding posts. The cabs will get some minor facelift treatment but are so good its more a question of keeping them that way!
Tempted to go the Lockwood route only because it does help with saleability to a much wider audience. Trying to convince the wife though that we should keep them if I can find somewhere to tuck them away when not in use!
Nice one, Paul. I think they look FAB (lovely period feel to them and the cabs have a gorgeous patina) - just my sort of thing! :)
I'd also agree with Geoff's suggestion about retaining the original cones and re-foaming those, as what he's saying is spot-on. When you're finished lovingly restoring the Mansfield's, I'd expect them to give your Turnberry's more than a few surprises! ;)
Marco.
I would too. Those cabs are far and away better than any Lancasters I've seen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
That was the biggest surprise Tom, just how solid and heavy they are. Lockwoods said that they only occasionally see a good set of Mansfields, and that this was an exceptional find. Most have been bashed around recording studios and driven hard for a living. I'm not bothered about how long it would take to run the new cones in. It won't be much different to the Turnberrys (I expect) which from new have taken a good 100 hours or more to properly bed in. They sound better with every playing.Quote:
Originally Posted by montesquieu
I may hang onto the original cones as spares providing coils are all ok. I've removed the back plate cover and the crossovers will come out next with a little guidance. Connector plug quality to the speakers is fab...way better than the plastic block connector rubbish on the new ones. In principle I could hardwire (solder) direct to the driver but for convenience, will simply clean up the original, use contact cleaner/lube, and re-assemble. Binding posts will be de-soldered, drilled out and binned. I feel some WBT ones coming in! Mind you. I like the CNC ones too, they;re well made and a fraction of the price.
Paul, don't worry about the power handling. The tweeter and bass voicecoils will never blow in domestic use. Even older Tannoys were designed to go devastatingly loud. I provided music to a very big party all night using my little Tannoy Eatons with a 200 watt amplifier and they didn't even break a sweat (I brought them along as my friend had melted his Harbeths, silly boy). If you take the cones out, you'll find the coils looking like new. Trust me you'll never have power handling issues, I've lived with various Tannoys for forty years and it just doesn't happen and I've been known to get them very, very loud. Upgraded terminal post is a good mod though.
I'm not knocking Lockwood, but they are out to get business and obviously will try and sell you their products. I'd love to see you have a bash at refoaming the existing cones.
You've made some good points Geoff...with me its mostly down to time as I have a fair few projects running at present (TT plinths/hifi furniture and a backlog of cables) so making time is always problematical when self employed! I'd love to have a crack at it because it can't be too difficult looking at what needs doing. I'll strip them down later on and examine them closely. If they look ok, I'll follow your suggestion Geoff, if not, then I may just package up and send off for repair as I'd have to buy the complete kit anyway (these had been run in their present condition at low volumes for quite a while!).Quote:
Originally Posted by walpurgis
I've missed a lot of this thread but I'm fascinated to hear the ongoing comparison between the ancient and modern Tannoys.
Over Christmas in Ottawa I heard a pair of Tannoy Buckinghams at a great shop called the Record Centre. John, who owns the shop, is a serious Tannoyista as well as a vintage Turntable evangelist. These Buckinghams were serious beasts with three large drivers. He had sourced some of the few recone kits remaining in existence, so these were practically as new. They sounded great; all the depth and warmth I'd hope for from Tannoys, and clear as a bell.
Hi Andrew
yes, its been a fascinating journey so far and one thing is standing out. Older Tannoys = more DIY standard cabinetry (!) but better quality drivers and connectors/New prestige range = better woodwork but poorer quality connectors and cheaper made drivers. That's not to say that the new ones sound worse, because they don't, to my ears they sound better in the sense they're more dynamic, more "hifi". What the older ones seem to do better is present a more effortless sense of scale and they have a wonderful midrange on all the one's I've so far heard. I can forgive what Tannoys do badly in exchange for what they do well if properly implemented (there's no going back in fact).
Update:
Drivers removed and stripped. In remarkable shape. Voice coils (treble) measure 10.6 Ohms and 10.3 Ohms (each drive unit respectively) and LF units measure 6.4 Ohms. Very closely matched on DC anyway although I'm aware thats not an indication of tolerance for FR. Its good news though as it means that the voice coils are intact and haven't scraped/shorted out.
Crossovers measure fine on continuity and crossover panels willbe re-drilled to accept decent speaker binding posts. Cabs will benefit from a very light rub with fine emery or fine sandpaper and will have a fresh coat of lacquer or Danish oil applied. Base to be drilled for castors as these will be moved about. Should be mint examples when everything is done.
Your driver tolerences seem very close indeed, I've known them to vary quite widely.
If the speakers sound OK once the cone issue is sorted, I'd be cautious about any mods or 'upgrades'. As I've said before, old components do not necessarily sound bad and modern components are not necessarily better, proceed with caution.
I don't know what type of adhesive Tannoy used for the veneer, so my inclination would be not to use any kind of oil treatment as some veneer adhesives dissolve in oil.
Absolutely Geoff, we're agreed on that. After some thought, it'll be a gentle rub down with very fine sandpaper then Canauba and beeswax well rubbed in and buffed in layers until a nice even sheen is evident. Carnauba will provide a tough finish and help smooth out the slightly rough natural teak grain and won't harm any adhesives.Quote:
Originally Posted by walpurgis
As far as the caps go, I won't mess with them design wise (although the cross overs CAN be bettered) and will keep them original spec with any changes being like for like. I want these close to standard but mint. I've designed the stands now which will sit on castors and raise the speakers around 10 inches making them quite imposing! I'll try and get as close a veneer match as possible for those and make them to fit the base plinth as an exact match profile/size wise.
A thought. If you're going to rub down the cabs with fine sandpaper (flourpaper), try finishing off with a light final rub over with very fine wire wool, this will help clear any grit from the grain prior to waxing. It will also remove any slight 'fluffing' of the wood surface fibres.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reffc
Exactly what I had planned Geoff. I've done several cabs and other bits of furniture this way now. It takes time and patience to get the best results!