Could this be a 'giant-killing' tonearm cable?

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Originally Posted by Marco

I really didn't know what to expect when the cable was subjected to the full scrutiny of Martin's uber-revealing and very carefully assembled high-end system.

Marco.

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So would this cable be wasted on anything less than ''uber-revealing''?

I guess it would allow you to hear the best from the rest of the chain if they are upto it?

Have i just answered my own question? :lol:

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Originally Posted by kininigin

So would this cable be wasted on anything less than ''uber-revealing''?

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Doubt it.
The difference was *large*
I've got a Naim Nait 2 and some Kans we could try it on when Marco comes to my place.
Could even plug it into an Arcam Amp and TDL speakers.
The answer may be more than academic

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Originally Posted by MikeMusic

I've got a Naim Nait 2 and some Kans we could try it on when Marco comes to my place.
Could even plug it into an Arcam Amp and TDL speakers.

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That would be interesting to see the results,in a more 'real world' system as it were.
I'm not in the market for a new cable at the moment anyway,just curious!

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Originally Posted by kininigin

So would this cable be wasted on anything less than ''uber-revealing''?

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I don't think so. These changes are likely to come through on any decent system.

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Originally Posted by kininigin

That would be interesting to see the results,in a more 'real world' system as it were.
I'm not in the market for a new cable at the moment anyway,just curious!

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I've got a variety of upgraded and not used kit I really should sell.
Would be useful to test out particular bits like this.

The very bottom end is probably a RAVE amp and speakers, then the Arcam and TDLs.
Have a Nait 2, 3, Kans and Saras and other bits

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Originally Posted by MikeMusic

I've got a variety of upgraded and not used kit I really should sell.
Would be useful to test out particular bits like this.

The very bottom end is probably a RAVE amp and speakers, then the Arcam and TDLs.
Have a Nait 2, 3, Kans and Saras and other bits

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The cable wont be wasted on your system, flog some of your stuff and buy one, you can always sell it on.

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Originally Posted by REXTON

The cable wont be wasted on your system, flog some of your stuff and buy one, you can always sell it on.

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My main system can't take it !
Not as it stands anyway.
Naim Aro / LP12
but I'm going to have a look underneath again to see if it might........
:)

If you have an Aro then you cannot use this cable (as it is) - simple as that I'm afraid. I have an Aro, I have full technical drawings for the Aro, I've set them up loads - in short, I know the Aro very well. If you send the Aro wiring loom to this cable chap he may well be able to custom fit the small multi-pin Aro connector to his cable - I don't know. If you d follow this course I would make sure that the end cable is not more rigid than the standard Aro cable as this would make dressing of the cable and suspension setup on the LP12 a right royal PITA.

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Originally Posted by YNWaN

If you have an Aro then you cannot use this cable (as it is) - simple as that I'm afraid. I have an Aro, I have full technical drawings for the Aro, I've set them up loads - in short, I know the Aro very well. If you send the Aro wiring loom to this cable chap he may well be able to custom fit the small multi-pin Aro connector to his cable - I don't know. If you d follow this course I would make sure that the end cable is not more rigid than the standard Aro cable as this would make dressing of the cable and suspension setup on the LP12 a right royal PITA.

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Thanks. Saves me looking.
I'll concentrate on doing easy things
:)

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Originally Posted by MikeMusic

My main system can't take it !
Not as it stands anyway.
Naim Aro / LP12
but I'm going to have a look underneath again to see if it might........
:)

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MMMmmmm that makes for an interesting comparison. I have a LP12 as well, its been stuffed in the attic for the last 2 years. :lol: You would probably notice differing outcomes from Yannis's cable on a belt driven system when compared to DD (just another variable to throw into the mix!). It would be nice to see how the cable effects the sonics of a LP12, now it looks like we'll never know. ;)

All you have to do is find an LP12 fitted with an arm other than the Aro (Ittok, Ekos, Basik etc).

While fiddling with Marco's deck and Ortofon SUT (step-up transformer) on Saturday, I happened to touch one of the silver transformer housings and got hum. We realised that the SUT was not being earthed from the interconnect screens but was independently earthed via its earth wire. Connecting that to my phono amp's earth terminal made a substantial improvement to dynamics and lowering of the noise floor.

So tonight, while reconnecting my system, I earthed my Choir Audio SUT in the same way. I've just discovered an improvement in focus and a further lowering of noise floor!

The lesson is: even if you have no hum, your earthing arrangements may not be optimal. I star earth my turntable, arm and now SUT separately to the phono amp's earth terminal, which then goes back to mains earth. You might all want to check your earthing arrangements :)

Yes, I do (not my SUT because I don't use one, but my deck, arm and phonostage. I would agree that even quite subtle differences to ones earthing arrangements can have quite a profound effect.

Nice one on the SUT earthing, Martin. It was amazing the difference it make doing it to my SUT, on Saturday, so I'm glad that you got a similar result!

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So hurry up and tell me what the SPD-4 is like, Marco, as my wallet is ready to drop money on a 'special' 423.5 :)

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Yannis has been in touch, and the SPD-4 will be shipped on Wednesday, which means it should be with me for the end of next week... Can you keep your suspenders on until then? :D

Marco.

I like the idea of star earthing and have such an arrangement in my own system.

Attention to earthing can make an enormous difference. Dare I say it, but it can make as much of a difference as changing cables. :sofa:

Too right! :)

Marco.

Phew! - You let me off lightly there Marco. I was expecting you to berate me over my views on interconnects.

I am in the processs of assembling a tone arm cable for my Breuer arm, which has been in retirement for far too long, but whose cable was never of the highest quality (unlike the arm itself).

When I'm done, I'll post some photos and details.

Looking forward to it. Tabatha has asked if you could run the final design past her, as she wants to be the first to scrutinise your new 'snake' ;)

Marco.

I wonder how my Graham IC70 would compare to this cable :scratch:

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Originally Posted by REXTON

MMMmmmm that makes for an interesting comparison. I have a LP12 as well, its been stuffed in the attic for the last 2 years. :lol: You would probably notice differing outcomes from Yannis's cable on a belt driven system when compared to DD (just another variable to throw into the mix!). It would be nice to see how the cable effects the sonics of a LP12, now it looks like we'll never know. ;)

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Did you compare the LP12 with the Technics directly ?

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Originally Posted by MartinT

While fiddling with Marco's deck and Ortofon SUT (step-up transformer) on Saturday, I happened to touch one of the silver transformer housings and got hum. We realised that the SUT was not being earthed from the interconnect screens but was independently earthed via its earth wire. Connecting that to my phono amp's earth terminal made a substantial improvement to dynamics and lowering of the noise floor.

So tonight, while reconnecting my system, I earthed my Choir Audio SUT in the same way. I've just discovered an improvement in focus and a further lowering of noise floor!

The lesson is: even if you have no hum, your earthing arrangements may not be optimal. I star earth my turntable, arm and now SUT separately to the phono amp's earth terminal, which then goes back to mains earth. You might all want to check your earthing arrangements :)

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That was one on the most surprising things I've ever heard in hifi. The improvement was like an upgrade of £100s.

There were two significant sound improvements while my house was being refurbed, we were still living in part of it.
I noticed a big improvement one evening - from the previous so a big difference.
I found the sparky and asked what he had done. Both times earth improvements.

Think there was a third where he changed one breaker for a larger more modern one.

You wonder what more can be done for just a few quid

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Originally Posted by Barry

IAttention to earthing can make an enormous difference. Dare I say it, but it can make as much of a difference as changing cables. :sofa:

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Actually, you are spot on - in fact, I would say the change can be very much like that of changing cables. I was listening to a new interconnect last night and I also tried a slightly different grounding configuration - the sound impact of both was very similar indeed.

I totally agree, as it's also been the results of my experience.

Going back to the 423.5 Phono cable... This thing is getting better and better, the more it's being used, and pulling subtle details out of the mix, which I've never heard before, on albums I've owned for years, and which thought that I knew inside out...

Talk about rediscovering your record collection! :eek:

Marco.

I'll give it a week and then I'm ordering one!!

By the way, what is Yannis' lead time?

Have either of you ever thought to try a Mark grant HD cable shoehorned into a cardas mini-din? I believe Mark has done it successfully, although I suspect it's a nightmare to bend :)

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Originally Posted by MikeMusic

Did you compare the LP12 with the Technics directly ?

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Yes I used to have my 1210 sitting next door to my LP12 (which I still own), and to put it quite frankly the 1210 pissed all over the LP12, this is when the 1210 was a stock deck and the LP12 had about £3K of upgrades.

You must have bought the wrong upgrades then

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Originally Posted by YNWaN

You must have bought the wrong upgrades then

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Probably but that still dosent change my mind the LP12 is $hit and shall never grace my listening room again. :ner:

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Originally Posted by MartinT

I'll give it a week and then I'm ordering one!!

By the way, what is Yannis' lead time?

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About a week, mate, and then about another, for it to arrive from Greece :)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by REXTON

Probably but that still dosent change my mind the LP12 is $hit and shall never grace my listening room again. :ner:

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I'm not the biggest fan of the LP12, but it's definitely not shit. Have you heard one, Andy, with the Audioflat mods?

Those raise the performance bar quite considerably.

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

I'm not the biggest fan of the LP12, but it's definitely not shit. Have you heard one, Andy, with the Audioflat mods?

Those raise the performance bar quite considerably.

Marco.

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No cant say that I have & no disrespect to Audioflat mods but I dont EVER want to go back to anything with belt drives or sprung suspension. It's DD for me all the way, far too much "magic" lets say in how they are set up. With DD its nice, simple, predicatable, and produces sonix far superior to belt drive, IMHO.

just to get back on topic. I think I'm going to get Yannis to make some balanced interconnects for my ATC speakers. This tonearm cable just gets better. I'm going to see what he can do to lower capacitance, impedence to as low as possible and mechanically dampen them as much as possible, whilst providing max RFI & EMI protection. .I'll probably plump for the same super pure silver and have Furutech bling added!! :D:D:cool:

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Originally Posted by REXTON

Yes I used to have my 1210 sitting next door to my LP12 (which I still own), and to put it quite frankly the 1210 pissed all over the LP12, this is when the 1210 was a stock deck and the LP12 had about £3K of upgrades.

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Ouch

Mike, you have to understand that a Linn supplied LP12 has a definite sound all its own. In fairness to Linn, the tonal aberrations (fruity bass, vague imaging and ill defined treble timbres) have been substantially tamed over the forty years of its life to the point where lovers of the 80's LP12 "sound" seem to dislike the current, more neutral flavouring. You've already gone against the grain by using an ARO, which has the potential to remove the plump and often ill defined boom of the typical Ittok and Ekos setup, together with the brash, "clanky" and tinkly sound these latter arms can have with the wrong cartridges fitted.

Put it this way, even the early pre-quartz Techies can sound outstandly good with sub 2g tracking cartridges (no SPU's here :)), as long as the siting is attended to (VERY important).

Sorry, Dave - missed this...

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Originally Posted by DSJR

Have either of you ever thought to try a Mark grant HD cable shoehorned into a cardas mini-din?

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Nope, but it would defeat the purpose of what we're achieving here, as the MG is not a solid-silver cable. In this particular application, we like the sound of solid silver, or silver litz :)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by DSJR

Mike, you have to understand that a Linn supplied LP12 has a definite sound all its own. In fairness to Linn, the tonal aberrations (fruity bass, vague imaging and ill defined treble timbres) have been substantially tamed over the forty years of its life to the point where lovers of the 80's LP12 "sound" seem to dislike the current, more neutral flavouring. You've already gone against the grain by using an ARO, which has the potential to remove the plump and often ill defined boom of the typical Ittok and Ekos setup, together with the brash, "clanky" and tinkly sound these latter arms can have with the wrong cartridges fitted.

Put it this way, even the early pre-quartz Techies can sound outstandly good with sub 2g tracking cartridges (no SPU's here :)), as long as the siting is attended to (VERY important).

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I got over my love of 'bass' via tape on my reel to reels when I realised it was wrong. I'm happy to try any sensibly priced piece of kit to allow more music to escape.
If that means upgrading the LP12, fine.
If it means turning to the dark side :)
and going to Technics then minor PITA, but I can cope.
It's incredible that I still have my original LP12 from around 1985 so I have had some service from it

(What's an SPU ?)

The cartridge you heard fitted to my T/T on Saturday, Mike. I have the elliptical version :)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

The cartridge you heard fitted to my T/T on Saturday, Mike :)

Marco.

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So SPU stands for Surprisingly heavy tracking weight PU then ?
:)

Hehehehe... No, it's actually rather more mundane. It simply stands for 'Stereo Pick-Up' :)

Here's an interesting article to read, giving the history of the (now) iconic Ortofon SPU: http://www.ortofon.com/about-ortofon...ert-gudmandsen

Marco.

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Originally Posted by MikeMusic

I got over my love of 'bass' via tape on my reel to reels when I realised it was wrong. I'm happy to try any sensibly priced piece of kit to allow more music to escape.
If that means upgrading the LP12, fine.
If it means turning to the dark side
and going to Technics then minor PITA, but I can cope.
It's incredible that I still have my original LP12 from around 1985 so I have had some service from it

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I think much will be revealed, when I bring my T/T over to your place, by whether your current system 'likes' the sonic signature of a Techy, or not.

If not, then you've got a big decision to make, as accommodating it successfully will mean a near complete system change. If that's not the case, then things will be much simpler :)

I need to hear your system first, and most importantly, understand fully how you like recorded music to be reproduced (i.e. the sound you're seeking to achieve), before advising/helping you, as is necessary.

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Hehehehe... No, it's actually rather more mundane. It simply stands for 'Stereo Pick-Up' :)

Here's an interesting article to read, giving the history of the (now) iconic Ortofon SPU: http://www.ortofon.com/about-ortofon...ert-gudmandsen

Marco.

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Thanks. A long history

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Originally Posted by Marco

I think much will be revealed, when I bring my T/T over to your place, by whether your current system 'likes' the sonic signature of a Techy, or not.

If not, then you've got a big decision to make, as accommodating it successfully will mean a near complete system change. If that's not the case, then things will be much simpler :)

I need to hear your system first, and most importantly, understand fully how you like recorded music to be reproduced (i.e. the sound you're seeking to achieve), before advising/helping you, as is necessary.

Marco.

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Yes the comparison is the key
I was surprised listening to my system on Sunday how much I still liked it.
I can take change to get more music.
If the 2 sound *different* rather than better / worse then I have a decision to make.
Sally has said she will take herself off that day, but I will get her to sit in on at least some of the session as her one working ear is stunningly perceptive.
Once upon a time she would always say "turn it down". Since about 2 years ago she is happy at reasonable volumes. I think that is down to the quality of reproduction

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Yes the comparison is the key
I was surprised listening to my system on Sunday how much I still liked it.

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That doesn't surprise me, Mike. It's a system you've assembled over many years, and been happy with, so you're unlikely to abandon it too quickly - and nor should you :)

I look forward to popping down, as it would be good to meet up again, hear your system and music collection, and compare my T/T to a decent LP12, which hasn't happened for a wee while :cool:

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

That doesn't surprise me, Mike. It's a system you've assembled over many years, and been happy with, so you're unlikely to abandon it too quickly - and nor should you :)

I look forward to popping down, as it would be good to meet up again, hear your system and music collection, and compare my T/T to a decent LP12, which hasn't happened for a wee while :cool:

Marco.

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Think it's more comfortable and certainly more forgiving than what we heard on Saturday.
There have been times when I wasn't happy.
I think Martin was surprised when we first spoke and I said my system sounded rubbish - as it did. Mostly mains.
Massive step up going to dedicated unswtiched sockets and another when our earth was first fixed. It's improved since too

I want to work on the system before a visit as I think there are obvious things to change that you could see at a glance, windows, furniture, general layout.
As it can take a while to move let me know what heavy labour I can do
:)
Let me know if you want more pics

Guys,

Just to let you know that the SPD-4 has now been shipped (Yannis has been busy, so there was a bit of a delay), which means that I should have the cable towards the end of next week, for evaluation against the 423.5 Phono Litz.

Martin, do you think you can wait that long for my verdict? :eyebrows:

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Martin, do you think you can wait that long for my verdict? :eyebrows:

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Luckily, I have a new earth connection (SUT) and two new Hi-Fi Tuning fuses in the system and I can hardly believe the DV cable was comparatively poor, so good is the system sounding.

I also have a new bench pillar drill, vice and set of miniature drill bits. So I'll be busy this weekend with the system rack feet.

So yes, I can wait. But not too long ;)

Lol... I'm sure that your new toys will keep you suitably amused in the interim :eyebrows:

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Guys,

Just to let you know that the SPD-4 has now been shipped (Yannis has been busy, so there was a bit of a delay), which means that I should have the cable towards the end of next week, for evaluation against the 423.5 Phono Litz.

Martin, do you think you can wait that long for my verdict? :eyebrows:

Marco.

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errr no :ner:

Martin has a new secret toy to play with until your tone-arm cable war and peace article is finished :)

After careful consideration and seeing and hearing the wand in action I have decided to dispense with standard tone arm cables in my system as I have never liked the 5 pin din plug and cannot help thinking the plug is so small only really thin wires will fit in and shielding cannot be all that good as it's thin so as to be able to fit into the din plug barrel. Better to dispense with it altogether if possible?

Just ordered 2 x furutech RCA inlet sockets to mount on the back of my 401 using a metal plate to connect the tone arm internal wiring to then I can use an RCA-RCA cable instead of the 5 pin mini din which is a pain in the arse if you ask me! So from cartridge tags to RCA sockets and then an RCA-RCA to phono stage and the exact same RCA-RCA from phono stage to amp, sorted! TQ black tone-arm RCA-RCA of course. Interesting to hear the results.

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Originally Posted by Mains Cables R Us

Martin has a new secret toy to play with until your tone-arm cable war and peace article is finished :)

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;)

Hehehehe... Interesting stuff. As they say, there's always two ways to skin a grape, or more than one way to skin a cat! ;)

Btw, the Furutech RCA sockets are fab - I use them on my Copper amp :)

Marco.