Denon 103 Pro and his step up

Marco, thanks I just found a second hand A23 (practically new of 2006) after putting an announce on the german forum of the Audio Analogue Association. Cost about Eur 350. After I have ordered it Keith Aschenbrenner answered to my mail: A23 cost 485,00 €uro plus 24,00 Euro Premium shipping outside Germany. Here the link to the shop in Frankfurt www.auditorium23.de.
Do you know the Yamamoto YC 03-Stereo or Mono with their set-ups (SUT-01 or SUT-02)? They had a great success in Germany for the neutral sound and they're also called the Koetsus of the common man.

Maybe Griffo104 is not so informed that a 103PRO is completely different referred to the 103. The first one is a professional release with a great tonal response; a totally different sound from the original 103 or 103R with whom can't compete.

Griffo,

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When I went looking for a new cart to have a play with I refused to go near the usual suspects with regards to forums. I tend to find forums, especially on our side of the pond, tend follow fashions quite strongly only for them to slag off the component they raved about so much previously.

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Indeed, I totally agree. It's ridiculous and it's something we've strived not to create on AOS. I hope you can notice this :)

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I did a LOT of research in to carts and found a lot of 'happy' DL103 owners (and not just the extended models you mention) were doing a lot more with them then simply slapping them on the end of a Rega of Linn arm. this really opened my eyes up to the whole hifi thing.

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Personally, I've only seen this sort of thing happening recently, certainly in the UK. I think elsewhere in Europe and in the US the 103, and the optimising of it thereof, has been going on and been used for a long time. I first used the 103 (in standard form) and played around with SUTs, high-mass headshells, etc, in 1982 where I used a 103 into a Lentek SUT, which was battery operated, in conjunction with a Sondex S230 integrated amplifier. My deck in those days was an Ariston RD11S with a Linn Basik LV-V arm, but it was suitably 'fettled' for use with a 103. Over the years I've gradually learned more and more about getting the most from the 103, until now where I consider myself unashamedly and immodestly as somewhat of an expert on the matter ;)

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the other pattern I noticed was how many serios vinly lovers, and I mean very serious, hating all forms of digital playback, all pretty much ignored any epensive cart. So many seemed to be happy with the cheaper end of the market - the baby Benz Micro bing particularly popular.

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It's probably because so many 'hi-end' cartridges are a rip-off, and I mean in terms of sound-per-pound value, not in a nasty or devious sense. When you consider, for example, that a Denon DL-110 or 160 costs well under £100 and can compete with or outperform designs costing many times that amount, and that cartridges ultimately wear out, rendering them almost worthless, then it puts things into perspective. Snapper, for example, retired his £2k Linn Akiva for a DL-160, and he uses a fully tricked out LP12! The AT-33PTG is another case in point, and outperforms many much more expensive designs, the same as with your DL-301.

I've had expensive Koetsus, Lyras, Transfigurations, Sumikos, Linns, Dynavectors, and plenty of other cartridges over the years and none of them get near to giving me the performance I enjoy with the 103R or Pro and their particular presentational qualities. It's the old economies of scale thing again - why pay a 'boutique' cartridge manufacturer £2000 for a cartridge that performance-wise the likes of Denon or Audio Technica could make for £200? It's just nonsense unless you're a badge snob or covet 'audiophile jewellery' for the sake of it. There are, however, a few specialised manufacturers of hi-end cartridges whose designs really do offer something special and (arguably) are worth the money, but those are few and far between and you pay accordingly! The 'pseudo hi-end' devices below that are just not worth the cost, in my opinion.

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I chose the DL301 for various reasons. Their popularity in Japan, where they simply don't bother with the DL304, it;s stylus profile, the exceptional mid band and tonal balance. It has an amazingly natural sounding treble.

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It's a great cartridge in the areas you describe but it lacks the 'balls' of a 103. All hi-fi equipment is a compromise and cartridges are no exception. Quite simply, I would not trade the 'funky' factor or the beautifully cavernous, textured, 'slammy' bass and liquid, valve-like midrange, which I've only heard from the likes of a 103 or Ortofon SPU, for any amount of "amazingly natural sounding treble". As they say 'you pays your money and takes your choice'.

Much of it of course depends on what music you listen to most. If you're mainly into classical, choral and acoustic music then quite rightly you would use a cartridge which compliments that type of music. If that represented my sole musical diet then a 103 would most certainly not be my cartridge of choice. However as I mostly listen to rock music and beat-driven material, using a cartridge which does bass *so* bloody well in the most beguiling way imaginable is an absolute no-brainer! :gig:

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I have the extra heacy weight that comes with the Technoarm, so I would just need to add more weight at the headshell end but I may well go out and get a DL103R at some point. I have the Denon AU-300LC which, as you mention, get matched up to these carts quite a lot.

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Keep us posted on how you get on. I suspect though that the Tecnoarm isn't a good match for a 103 regardless of adding mass to the headshell. In my experience it has characteristics in the midrange and top end which don't marry well with the 103. However, as always, I'm quite happy to be proved wrong! :)

Marco.

Hi Piero,

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Marco, thanks I just found a second hand A23 (practically new of 2006) after putting an announce on the german forum of the Audio Analogue Association. Cost about Eur 350. After I have ordered it Keith Aschenbrenner answered to my mail: A23 cost 485,00 €uro plus 24,00 Euro Premium shipping outside Germany. Here the link to the shop in Frankfurt www.auditorium23.de.

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That's great. Well done! :)

This is a very interesting read: http://www.auditorium-23.de/Accessor...nsformers.html particularly this bit on the A23:

[From the website]

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I have reason to believe that its designer, Keith Aschenbrenner, voiced this unit around the basic SPU Classic, which like the Denon 103, is all about tonality in the same sense that the folks at Audio Note UK claim their components are. Both cartridges favor the body of notes over the leading edge and weight over speed.

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That's EXACTLY why I like cartridges like the DL-103, SPU, and EMT TSD-15. It's where I'm at with vinyl sound and why I don't like Lyras, which represent the other end of the spectrum. Griffo, take note ;) It's interesting that Audio Note were mentioned as in my opinion they're one of the few modern cartridge manufacturers that get this aspect of cartridge performance correct. But then both AN designs and the 103 use Alnico magnets... I'm convinced that the Alnico factor is significant.

This (from the website) is also spot-on!

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The A23 Denon 103 step up is a perfect complement for the cartridge of the same name. Played through it, the Denon 103 maintains its body and weight, but its apparent speed and resolution improve dramatically, especially throughout the upper registers.

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That's exactly what happens when a 103 is used with an A23 and why, until you use one (or can make one like it), you haven't heard a 103 properly!

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Do you know the Yamamoto YC 03-Stereo or Mono with their set-ups (SUT-01 or SUT-02)? They had a great success in Germany for the neutral sound and they're also called the Koetsus of the common man.

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I know of Yamamoto SUTs but not cartridges, although I've not heard any. I first discovered them on the Japanese website where I bought my 103Pro.

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Maybe Griffo104 is not so informed that a 103PRO is completely different referred to the 103. The first one is a professional release with a great tonal response; a totally different sound from the original 103 or 103R with whom can't compete.

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:eyebrows: I think he's reading and learning fast!

Marco.

As a hifi geek I'mnow fully aware of the top end DL103s. As mentioned I did a lot of research :)

The one I would also like to get my hands on would be the Zu Audio modded one which addresses a lot of the problems with the basic DL103.

I was reading just yesterday that a dealer in the UK is still stating that DL103 will be a decent job in Rega based arm and yet with a bit of research it becomes quite apparent that this isn't so. I a gree with Marco the Technoarm may not be the best match with a DL103 to fully appreciate what it can do.

My musical taste a re hugley varies. From indie to metal to punk to industrial to jazz to claissical. I don't mind the odd well done dance music either (Unkle and that kind of thing). One of the things I dislike about the DL301ii isthat it just doesn't give you that sense of scale and dynamics that a full on orchestra shouwld have. for chamber music it's much better, the tonal and timbral capabilities of the cart really shine through.

I've realised, as I get older and (hopefully) wiser, there is no single , simple solution. As with most things in life it's not as easy as a reviewer or some bloke on a forum would some times like you to believe it is. there's a very good reason why some many decks were modded and redesigned to have more than one toneamr on, especially for the Japanese market who seem to appreciate the multiple solutions to a given problem.

As for SUTs then, yes, running my phono in MM mode brings worryingly superb silences to sound, it's just so queit, but my current experiences with SUTs are bringing a little less detail and seem to soften the sound up a little bit.

Having grown up a cd boy I suppose I've noticed this more as I never had a deck until I was 28 (blimey nearly 9 years of analogue bliss now), but that's another discussion for another day - the CD propaganda machine :steam:

Griffo,

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The one I would also like to get my hands on would be the Zu Audio modded one which addresses a lot of the problems with the basic DL103.

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I've heard it. It's very good if you want to 'freshen up' the 103 and make it sound more 'hi-fi'-like, but not if you value the traditional traits which make the 103 special. The Zu mods lose some of the 'romance' but improve certain sonic aspects of the 103, which will either be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your priorities. Aesthetically though it looks lovely!

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I was reading just yesterday that a dealer in the UK is still stating that DL103 will be a decent job in Rega based arm and yet with a bit of research it becomes quite apparent that this isn't so. I a gree with Marco the Technoarm may not be the best match with a DL103 to fully appreciate what it can do.

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My advice is to ignore any dealer who says that a 103 will work optimally in a Rega arm. He's either talking bollocks in some way to further his business or simply hasn't got the necessary experience to know better. Yep, mate, I'd not bother with a 103 in a Tecnoarm as I don't think you'd get the results you're looking for. No doubt it's a good match with your 301, though.

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My musical taste a re hugley varies. From indie to metal to punk to industrial to jazz to claissical. I don't mind the odd well done dance music either (Unkle and that kind of thing).

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Don't get me wrong, so does mine - I listen to all sorts, but when I feel like playing some rock or dance music then I want it to be 'pummelled' along with the drive and 'heft' that in my experience only a 103 and SPU (and classic cartridges of their ilk) can manage. Anything else is just weedy and ‘limp-wristed’ in comparison! As long as gentler and more subtle types of music are rendered satisfactorily (to me) then I'm happy with the trade-off :)

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One of the things I dislike about the DL301ii isthat it just doesn't give you that sense of scale and dynamics that a full on orchestra shouwld have. for chamber music it's much better, the tonal and timbral capabilities of the cart really shine through.

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Yep, and there's your trade-off. I can tell you now that no matter how well set-up or partnered a 103 is it will not do detail retrieval and 'delicacy' as well as a 301 or 304 (or any cartridge with a fine-line stylus) for that matter. However, it will do it about 95% as well when set-up has been optimised and it's used with the right deck and arm. What you will get though is bass to die for and a sense of scale and power through the lower registers that neither of those two cartridges (or any 'delicate' sounding fine-line type) could dream of...

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I've realised, as I get older and (hopefully) wiser, there is no single , simple solution. As with most things in life it's not as easy as a reviewer or some bloke on a forum would some times like you to believe it is. there's a very good reason why some many decks were modded and redesigned to have more than one toneamr on, especially for the Japanese market who seem to appreciate the multiple solutions to a given problem.

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That's absolutely right. There is no 'one true path' to audio nirvana, and quite simply anyone who possesses such an absolutist mindset will never have a great sounding system which is able to play all genres of music with aplomb. The Japanese are far more adept at knowing what to buy with hi-fi and getting the most out of it than we will ever be. The Germans and Greeks are also of a similar ilk. In the UK hi-fi enthusiasts are in the main Ebay bargain hunters flitting unsatisfactorily from system to system in search of some 'magic' they'll never find or badge snobs dropping huge sums of cash on 'statement' products which actually deliver very little in terms of genuine sonic or musical satisfaction. As they say in Glasgow, 'all fur and nae knickers'!

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As for SUTs then, yes, running my phono in MM mode brings worryingly superb silences to sound, it's just so queit, but my current experiences with SUTs are bringing a little less detail and seem to soften the sound up a little bit.

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Yes, you're right, but the softness you describe is simply a trait of the AU-300. It's a good little device but it has its limitations. You need to try something better to fully appreciate what a good SUT can do. There will be no 'softness', I guarantee you! IMO, it's unquestionably the best way to play music through a low-output, low impedance, moving coil cartridge.

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Having grown up a cd boy I suppose I've noticed this more as I never had a deck until I was 28 (blimey nearly 9 years of analogue bliss now), but that's another discussion for another day - the CD propaganda machine :steam:

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I think you mean the DIGITAL propaganda machine. CD is pretty good when done well, and has its place, but it will never be able to compete sonically with vinyl done well. I'm hopeful that these new hi-res computer formats will be as good as the 'digiphiles' are making out, but until I hear it trounce my vinyl set-up the jury is out... I've witnessed too many false dawns with digital before to get too prematurely excited!

Marco.

I posted my announce on the Auditorium 23 step-up on the german AAA (Audio Analogue Association) forum and after buying a used A23 some geek wrote me that this setup is one of the most overrated product and sounds even worse then the little Denon Au-300 step up ... anyway Aschenbrenner has lots of enemies in his country, nemo profeta in patria as latins say!
About the A23 when I'll test it I will know something more. At least, I could claim my compatriot Marco!

Haha... :lol:

Piero,

Quegli biscari sono da vero proprio stupido. Le cose che pensono loro non è importante! Sono securo che il A23 è una cosa molto speciale ;)

I better not write in Italian any more as it's not fair on our UK members...

I've owned the little AU-300 - it's good but not in the same league as the A23. Let us know how you get on when it arrives :)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Quegli biscari sono da vero proprio stupido. Le cose che pensono loro non è importante! Sono securo che il A23 è una cosa molto speciale

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Babelfish translation:

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Those biscari are from true own stupid. The things that pensono they not and important! They are securo that a23 and a thing much special one

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:lol::lol::lol:

Hahahaha... That shows you just how shite on-line translators are! :lolsign:

Would you like the proper translation?

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Hi Steve,



Like this? http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...3-04-06238.jpg :)

They're excellent old things and have soul, emotion, and realistic 'tone' in spades, similar to the DL-103 and SPU - exactly what is missing with about 95% of modern cartridges. Any true vinyl aficionado should do themselves a favour and hear one with a suitable turntable and tonearm. For a similar thing try a Shure SC35C, which is the modern equivalent (the body is unfortunately plastic but the generator and stylus assembly, though detachable, are similar):

http://www.bswusa.com//product_popup...shur_sc35c.jpg

It's touted these days as a 'DJ/scratch cartridge', but mounted on the right turntable and arm, it can sound truly magical (it also has bass to die for) - and it's cheap as chips, as with the DL-103 for very similar reasons (economies of scale).



Lyras are clinical, frigid, things in comparison. Jonathan Carr seems like a lovely chap, but I hate the way he voices his cartridges!!



For an elegant solution, since you've got a detachable headshell arm, use one of these - 18g mass and with almost zero resonant properties:

http://www.audiocubes2.com/brand/Aud...ead_Shell.html

But the cost might be an anathema for your D.I.Y sensibilities ;)

Marco.

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The Shure SC35C scares me with it's 4.0 to 5.0 grams tracking. Does it really need that much tracking force?