Calling all SL-1200/1210 owners!

Hi Kelvin,

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Marco, thanks for your many opinions on the 'table. I noticed that you've gotten a new Jelco arm. Are you going to post a review, and why you've changed? is the Jelco a rega derivative, and so use the rega armboard, otherwise how are you mounting the jelco arm on?

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I'll be doing a full review shortly; in fact I've already started the introduction. The Jelco uses a Linn-type fixing which with a suitable mounting plate fits on the 1210 no problem.

Why have I changed?

Well, it was always my intention to eventually fit a 'hi-end' arm on the 1210 once I had used and lived with the modified Technics arm for a period of time and analysed what it did. I prefer S-shaped detachable headshell arms because of the types of cartridges I like and those I intend to buy in due course (Ortofon SPU, EMT XSD-15, etc) so I had looked at suitable arms from Ortofon, Audio technica and EMT, but they were all overpriced in my opinion - I felt that you are paying for the name more than anything else, which is not where I'm at with hi-fi these days as I now seek maximum sound-per-pound value with any equipment I introduce into my system.

So when I seen the Jelco arm pictured in this month's HFW magazine with Sound Hi-fi listed as stockists I said to myself "That's the one!" and then arranged an audition - safe to say that the Jelco met all my expectations! Also, I was fed up with people associating the Technics arm as a 'cheap OEM unit'. I knew this wasn't the case and that when damped and rewired with Cardas cable it offered superb performance but there was always that niggling doubt there that it was somehow holding the deck back. So now I have a top-notch T/T and an arm to match. When I get the SPU or EMT cartridge then people can stop slagging off the DL-103, as it'll be 'hi-end' all the way! :ner:

I'm only joking though as I will always use 103s because I love their sound. My ideal cartridge line-up would be three 103s (an 'R', Pro, and ZU-modified), an Ortofon SPU and an EMT XSD-15. I'd also like a classic Shure MM, and have my eye on an M75ED.

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I'm using the 103 currently, and with the stock technics arm and headshell, there's not quite enough mass to match the compliance. I've resorted to sticking a small coin on the headshell. Anything heavier, and the stock counterweight won't be able to balance. Also, I'm a bit concerned about putting too much weight on one spot, as opposed to spreading the weight along the arm. I'll try and get a picture of the coin-modded 103 here when I get home.

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You need a high mass headshell such as the Audio Technica LH-18 that I use. Coins and such like add unwanted resonance to the headshell which transmits down the armtube and adversely affects sound quality. Using coins to add extra mass is a stop gap method only and should not be seen as a permanent solution.

The 103, in my experience, likes a high-mass headshell on a fairly 'lossy' arm. You don't really need a genuinely high-mass arm, as long as the headshell used has plenty of weight and is of rigid construction. The ideal effective tonearm mass for a 103 is something in the region of 12-15g, which is why the standard Technics arm, and the likes of the Jelco are spot on. The 18g weight of the AT headshell will add to the arm's overall effective mass anyway, so you don't need the armtube itself any heavier. Counterweight balances don't contribute to the overall effective mass of tonearms as they are decoupled from the armtube.

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For the brass counterweight that I've heard so much about, It's a screw on right? What is the mass of the counterweight? I recall that it's in 3 pieces, so how much weight does it bring to the tonearm?

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The brass counterweight balance I use simply slots on to the arm and is held in place with two small grub screws. Mine is in two pieces but you can also get John (Thrunobulaxx) to make them in three pieces and to any weight you want.

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one other thing, about the mats. I've read quite a bit here also about the various mats and experiences using them. I'm currently using the 5mm funk achromat, and because it's about the same thickness as the stock rubber mat, i didn't make any compensation to the arm height. But if you stack the herbie (3mm? 5mm?) with the funk mat (5mm), it goes up quite a bit, and do you adjust the arm height accordingly to keep the arm parallel? I'm still quite a novice at the VTA adjustments.

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Yes you would indeed. You'll find though that it's almost impossible to get VTA spot-on with a 103 on the Technics arm unless you use a combination of mats to get the arm parallel, simply because the 103 is quite a shallow-bodied cartridge (compared to something like a Stanton 500 which the arm was designed to work with) and there isn't sufficient VTA adjustment built into the arm to get it right. Even when the VTA adjuster is wound down to minimum the back of the arm will still be too high. This is one of the reasons why I got the Jelco, and what made me completely change my mat configuration, more of which will be mentioned in the review.

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Quite a bit to read for a first post, but I'm quite excited about my incoming, and just want to keep this excellent thread going for a great 'table.

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No problem. I know exactly how you feel as I felt the same way when I was waiting on my deck arriving from KAB. It's probably the best piece of hi-fi gear I've ever bought :)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

I'll be doing a full review shortly; in fact I've already started the introduction. The Jelco uses a Linn-type fixing which with a suitable mounting plate fits on the 1210 no problem.

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Great! Looking forward to this review. Hope it materialises before the 1210 one ... :lol: if the jelco arm is really an improvement even over the tricked out stock tonearm, it would be a cool upgrade to look forward to.

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I prefer S-shaped detachable headshell arms because of the types of cartridges I like and those I intend to buy in due course (Ortofon SPU, EMT XSD-15, etc) so I had looked at suitable arms from Ortofon, Audio technica and EMT, but they were all overpriced in my opinion - I felt that you are paying for the name more than anything else, which is not where I'm at with hi-fi these days as I now seek maximum sound-per-pound value with any equipment I introduce into my system.

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hmm .. on browsing the soundhifi site, the jelco tonearm featured is neither S-shaped nor have a detachable headshell (from what I can see from the picture anyway) .... but it's great to hear that the Jelco's met all of your expectations, otherwise your stock KAB tweaked arm won't be on the way out ...

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I'm only joking though as I will always use 103s because I love their sound. My ideal cartridge line-up would be three 103s (an 'R', Pro, and ZU-modified), an Ortofon SPU and an EMT XSD-15. I'd also like a classic Shure MM, and have my eye on an M75ED.

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agreed. I'm currently using a 103 and the sound is really something else. I've picked up a 103R and a AT33PTG during a recent trip to Tokyo, and am really looking forward to trying each one of them out. But every time I think of making the effort to switch, two things hold me back: 1) the thought of realigning a new cart and 2) the current sweetness of the 103, which i know still hasn't reached its full potential as the arm doesn't quite have enough effective mass to hit the resonance sweet spot, and I would like to hear the incoming KAB 1200 take the cart to another level before considering the switch. so the other two carts would just have to wait ...

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You need a high mass headshell such as the Audio Technica LH-18 that I use. Coins and such like add unwanted resonance to the headshell which transmits down the armtube and adversely affects sound quality. Using coins to add extra mass is a stop gap method only and should not be seen as a permanent solution.

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That's good to know. I'll be making another trip down to tokyo in February, and will definitely be hunting down a couple of LH-18s to pair with my carts. Does the LH-18 go well with the AT33PTG, since it's still relatively low compliance? as for the coin, I'm perfectly aware that it's a stop gap measure, until I can manage to get a better headshell for it. It's currently stuck on with a bit of blu-tac, so hopefully that helps to dampen the unwanted resonance a bit. (see picture for coin tweak :confused:)

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...p/IMG_0524.jpg

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The 103, in my experience, likes a high-mass headshell on a fairly 'lossy' arm. You don't really need a genuinely high-mass arm, as long as the headshell used has plenty of weight and is of rigid construction. The ideal effective tonearm mass for a 103 is something in the region of 12-15g, which is why the standard Technics arm, and the likes of the Jelco are spot on. The 18g weight of the AT headshell will add to the arm's overall effective mass anyway, so you don't need the armtube itself any heavier. Counterweight balances don't contribute to the overall effective mass of tonearms as they are decoupled from the armtube.

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ahh .. i learn something new, as i always thought that the counterweight adds to the effective arm mass somehow. so the key is really for a heavier headshell.

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The brass counterweight balance I use simply slots on to the arm and is held in place with two small grub screws. Mine is in two pieces but you can also get John (Thrunobulaxx) to make them in three pieces and to any weight you want.

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No worries. I'll go with your 'tried and tested' duo to begin with, until I'm a bit more sure of exactly how much weight I want, before talking to John for a custom-ed one.

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You'll find though that it's almost impossible to get VTA spot-on with a 103 on the Technics arm unless you use a combination of mats to get the arm parallel, simply because the 103 is quite a shallow-bodied cartridge (compared to something like a Stanton 500 which the arm was designed to work with) and there isn't sufficient VTA adjustment built into the arm to get it right. Even when the VTA adjuster is wound down to minimum the back of the arm will still be too high. This is one of the reasons why I got the Jelco, and what made me completely change my mat configuration, more of which will be mentioned in the review.

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That's right. I recall that based on the cart height, the arm height had to be set at 0, which meant any lowering of the back of the arm would be impossible. seems like even an easily adjustable VTA has its limitations too! I see now the use of the mats as VTA tools ...

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No problem. I know exactly how you feel as I felt the same way when I was waiting on my deck arriving from KAB. It's probably the best piece of hi-fi gear I've ever bought :)

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I'm treating it as a christmas present to myself, so as long as it gets in by then, I'm a happy camper. but with the festive season coming up, I'm just worried that kevin will have his hands full with many 'tables going around as gifts!

thanks again for all the advice. I must say this is a great forum, very cosy and quite unlike some of the others that I've visited. Here's a piccie of my humble setup ... everything's in place, just waiting for the 'table to arrive.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...p/IMG_0525.jpg

That's a lovely set up Bong. May I ask what speaker stands you're using?

Hi Kelvin,

Great pics and great set-up! :)

I'll get to the rest of your post later as I have to pop out now for a bit, but just to clear this up:

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hmm .. on browsing the soundhifi site, the jelco tonearm featured is neither S-shaped nor have a detachable headshell (from what I can see from the picture anyway) ....

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It's the SA-750D shown below, which as you will see is most certainly S-shaped with a detachable headshell ;)

http://www.soundhifi.com/jelco.html

Speak more later!

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Filterlab

That's a lovely set up Bong. May I ask what speaker stands you're using?

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Thanks Rob! The speaker stands, as well as the hifi rack are both from Guizu or Nobility (Guizu means nobles or nobility in Chinese). You can take a look at their AV furniture here

kelvin.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Hi Kelvin,

Great pics and great set-up! :)

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Thanks. It's a bedroom setup, so a bit of thought had to go into the WAF (wife acceptance factor) of the setup. Otherwise, that spot will remain an empty spot. :lol:

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It's the SA-750D shown below, which as you will see is most certainly S-shaped with a detachable headshell ;)

http://www.soundhifi.com/jelco.html

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My mistake. I saw the earliest picture on the 1200mods page that said 'The Jelco tonearm with xxx cart' and assumed that that was the 750D. I stand corrected and wiser.

kelvin.

Cheers Kelvin, it looks really lovely. My stands and racks are all matt black and sometimes I just think how nice wood stands look. How are they acoustically speaking? Any major or minor influence on the sound?

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Originally Posted by Filterlab

Cheers Kelvin, it looks really lovely. My stands and racks are all matt black and sometimes I just think how nice wood stands look. How are they acoustically speaking? Any major or minor influence on the sound?

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I agree about the wood stands. I was sold the moment I saw them, and after switching over to them, I can only say that they complement the equipment placed on them, both aesthetically and acoustically. I find that there's significant improvement to the sound, specifically to give a wider stage and more distinct separation. However, I was previously using a generic Ikea table for my setup so any change would have been an improvement. :lol:

Hehehehe, yes indeed. It never fails to amaze me how much difference proper stands make. I've yet to find speaker stands that acoustically improve on mine, saying that they are the dedicated stands for my speakers so chances are slimmer than average. :)

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Originally Posted by Filterlab

Hehehehe, yes indeed. It never fails to amaze me how much difference proper stands make. I've yet to find speaker stands that acoustically improve on mine, saying that they are the dedicated stands for my speakers so chances are slimmer than average. :)

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agreed. but the quest for good stands could be tough ... as it's a lot less obvious compared to hifi gear, as to what's snake oil and what's not... and it's tough to lug your speakers/gear around to audition stands. so once I find any that give an improvement, they're for keeps! ;)