Of course he bloody is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
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Of course he bloody is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
These guys were very useful moving another panel into place.:)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...bce0c87c_k.jpg2F83F4C8-51B5-41D4-BC23-01AEF147D56D by , on Flickr
Jumbo and Jimbo :eyebrows: Nice panel BTW. Size and position relative to speakers please. In otherwards piccies or it didn't appen :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
So this afternoon I thought I best fire up the digital system which is a rag bag assortment of cheap as sh*t gear thrown together with a bunch of wires and cables that are equally cheap as sh*t. The whole set up cost £125 + cables so beyond budget system build.
Sat here this afternoon after warming it up for an hour or so and it sounded almost acceptable as long as you fed it with top notch mastered stuff.
I wonder what my guest will make of it tomorrow evening?:eek::sofa:
Yup, this will be interesting :)
I have also reconfigured the room mate and will post pics and full analysis over the weekend after tomorrows session.:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by brian2957
Look forward to it James :)
yep, nice to see how you've been getting on.
So I had an interesting and enjoyable evening with my guest on Friday. I had decided to reconfigure the room without the sofa between the speakers as I know this is not considered the "Audiophile" thing to do. During the day I had been evaluating privately what I thought regarding the removal of the sofa and my conclusions were that it had some positive but also negative effects. When you walk into my listening room with it in place you can just tell the extra damping factor so it is not insignificant to remove it.
On the plus side my bass gained better definition, articulation and punch but the downside was a general harder sound to the music in the room and a more forward presentation that could sound too much especially with digital material. I popped the sofa back in last night and I think I prefer this set up as I am not particularly a bass head and like more clarity and control in the midrange and top end where I believe all the action should be. But going forward it was considered that I need to add a lot more treatment to the walls which was what I was planning anyway with about 5-6 more acoustic panels lined up.
We listened to my ultra budget digital set up first and to be honest it sounded ok on well mastered material but it was improved significantly once we removed a whole load of electrical noise from the system. I did know that any spurious electrical noise was damaging to digital audio and it is something a lot of manufacturers have been investigating and combating over the last few years. Believe me do anything you can to remove as much of this from your digital system as possible and you will be amazed.
Vinyl took over in the second half of the evening and for me it elevated the listening experience significantly as it had better soundstage, imaging, macro and micro detail, resolution, transparency, naturalness........ I will leave that there.:)
Good to have another pair of ears listen to the system but always very difficult to make lots of comments because they do not know what is contributing to what ie amplifier, speaker, cable , cartridge...... which bit is influencing the sound most. Impossible to tell unless you know all the equipment intimately. And secondly your system is tuned to you ears and liking in your environment so you may hear it differently to them. At best a session like the other evening can enlighten you to each others taste in music and only touch on their taste in equipment as it is so difficult for them to get their ears/head round the room and equipment. You can only make general comments of the overall big picture/sound as it were.
So many times I have borrowed equipment off friends and listened to it my room and because it is hooked up to a different system in a different room it will often sound very different to how they hear it in their system/room. It may not play nicely with your kit or it may sound superb but obviously very personal taste.
The room set up for the listening session without the sofa.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...45ff349d_k.jpg8BB4CD52-7EF8-4BAE-8B4E-842DD907E95F_1_201_a by , on Flickr
Nice write up Jim. Well done!
What were the sources of electrical noise that you removed? SMPSs?
By the way, I love the look of your living/listening room (but I have to say the appearance of those hawser-like speaker cables would annoy me greatly).
Glad you enjoyed your friends visit James. I had a feeling the subject of significantly more room treatment wolud have come up. I also had a feeling that the sofa would make a return between the speakers because I thought removing it would have 'hardened' the sound. How did you remove the electrical noise from the system BTW?
Great post and great photo as ever mate :)
what did this involve? I've seen plenty of foo solutions to what is usually a non-existent problem. Is this something different?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
I was using a linear PSU but no galvanic isolation anywhere in the rest of the digital set up. It was all on the floor near the mains plugs so was probably being bombarded with electrical noise. The device, that unfortunately I cannot mention, simply took away a huge amount of mains noise and probably RF noise. The shocking difference has made me now keen to eliminate as much electrical noise getting into my digital set up. I know there are some cheap and very expensive options but I think they should definitely be considered.
Noise pollution seems to be a constant issue with digital audio especially when using separate DAC, DDC and server etc hooked up with a variety of cables and different connectors. I thought I understood trying to eliminate jitter and electrical noise within the digital chain of equipment but did not appreciate just how much the delicate digital signals and equipment can be affected by external digital noise. I would say even trying to use the best possible set ups for digital playback even with galvanic isolation you will not be immune to external digital noise and addressing this can have profound and huge effects on the performance and SQ of your digital system.
A pic of my ultra budget digital set up. Top of the pile Justboom DAC which uses a Burr Brown chip, next down Douk Audio DDC reclocker and At bottom Chinese Linear PSU. These are all hooked up to a MacBook Air using Audirvana.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...e56cf569_k.jpgAA05EDA3-3BF6-4B86-BAC5-AA07DE4BE9D5 by , on Flickr
Have to say I have not personally found that to be the case at all but my digital set up is very simple, just a CD transport into a DAC, signal cables are routed away from power cables and none of the boxes are sited close to the mains outlets or the power strip.
I would just be very wary of anyone claiming to have magic solutions to things like jitter and noise, there are a lot of con-men operating in this area of hi-fi (although I'm sure some of them do genuinely believe in their products). If they can't offer hard evidence that it does something then it almost certainly doesn't do anything beyond a placebo effect.
Hans Beekhuyzen in particular is to be avoided, almost everything he says about digital audio is factually incorrect.
My only absolute evaluation and recommendation regarding anything I use or have discovered is through direct use in my system and my own subjective listening.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
As you know Martin the net is awash with theories, "facts" and recommendations of equipment based on measurements, technical abilities or simply other peoples listening experience with a piece of kit in their system and audio environment. This maybe a good start for many of us but I always reserve judgement until I get whatever piece of kit I use and it has been hooked up to my system.
FWIW I found my digital system improved with each step I have taken.
1. A move from CD to FBA.
2. Use of Audirvana on a laptop using SSD.
3. Bypassing laptop DAC to then use off board DAC.
4. Reclock digital data with DDC before it gets to DAC.
5. Use of Linear PSU to power both DAC and DDC.
Each step of the way was marked with an improvement in SQ. Of course it could all be in my imagination:lol:
I have pondered "better" DACs , better cables etc but I would soon run very quickly run into the law of diminishing returns and in fact almost any change /addition would cost more than the whole of my digital set up. If I were seriously thinking that digital would become a significant day to day part of my system I may considerer other options but to be honest I have heard mega bucks gear and for me although technically they are fantastic and measure superbly they still sound err...digital.
well it is true we can never escape our own subjective experience no matter what the fact of the matter is :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
I had a valve/vinyl/horn fanatic here a few months back, not someone I have ever met before. His system and mine are diametrically opposed in every respect.
His comment on my system was 'It sounds so refined!' No mention of it sounding 'digital'.
Reclocking boxes are an odd one since the DAC (unless it is quite an old design) will just reclock the signal again so it's hard to see what the benefit can be.
Anyway, sorry, please carry on I won't interrupt again.
Not at all Martin, that's the nature of a forum, all opinions are valid. I think everything in audio should be questioned especially when your spending cold hard cash!Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
The reclocker just ensures the package of bits from the server are clocked very precisely before getting to the DAC who's clock may not be up to much. In other words the clocker has a better clock than the DAC so it does not have to work too hard once the clocked package arrives at its door.
Translating this into a listening experience of course is subjective but it definitely sounds smoother with a better soundstage and better instrument separation/imaging with the DDC in place. I am in the great position in that my DAC is very responsive to anything that can help it out so the clocker and LPS definitely allow it to perform at a higher level than on its own.
If you have more expensive digital gear with better more accurate clocks and built in LPS PSU and galvanic isolation etc then they should perform better and maybe sound better. I don't know?
If anyone is interested in current prices for my digital set up?
Justboom DAC is £35 + case
Duok audio DDC is about £60
BRZHifi LPS can be had for £45 off aliexpress
Silly money compared to almost any other digital system on the market.
BUT you do need a laptop which I use as a server for file and metadata storage.
Cables were all free apart from one power cable which was £15. I have a feeling my USB cable is not up to much so if anyone can suggest a good USB-C - USB-B cable for connecting my laptop to DDC I would be grateful.
Nope, Topping E30 £140 new powered by a mobile phone charger. :D - honestly though listening right now and really it is flawless as far as I can tell. If I thought I could do better then I would. You will have to come over for a listen sometime, see if it sounds digital to you, and if so, point out to me the specifics of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Maybe I just have cloth ears or am undiscriminating - I don't think so but obviously I can't be certain about that.
Nice AK4493 chip in that E30 which I think was developed to give a type of R2R sound and I think it uses the same XU208 XMOS USB chip that I use in the Duok DDC. It gets great reviews and I have no doubt it sounds great maybe even better with an LPS.
I should really make an effort and pop up to you and bring my digital set up and we could have a fun bake-off and you can get to try an LPS and DDC hooked put to your DAC and maybe hear the difference.
I will get in touch soon Martin and maybe we can arrange a date?
Yes we should do that, I have not tried one of these DDC things - I'm afraid I am far too sceptical to go to the effort to buy one to try out. I've had a listen to systems using them but not done any comparisons. I have an LPS I could use for the DAC but I have just not felt the need to experiment since it all sounds so good anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
I do have another DAC (Soncoz) that uses LPS (two of them in fact) but to me it sounds identical to the Topping and the Topping looks cuter so I left that in the system.
Been playing with speaker "toe in" this evening. `I had not messed around too much with it previous to putting in some room treatment but now the effect of toeing in the speakers has a much larger effect than before and is extremely responsive to the slightest angle but what is more interesting is how the recording are revealing hidden micro details as well as bigger effects like soundstage layering.
Keeping the speakers facing head on gives a huge sound stage but some detail and imaging is lost even with the first reflection panels. But get the toe in spot on and all sorts of magical things happen. Bass becomes more even and less diffused, Imaging in the soundstage is fantastic. Depth of recorded information is easily heard.
Recordings now sound almost like putting headphones on where you can pin point everything and hear tiny details in the landscape.
I have learnt so much about speaker interaction with the room over the last few months and still keep discovering more. The information and the way the system now sounds is so much greater than before, I would suggest it may even be more significant than buying a new amplifier or cartridge or at least on a par!
It will be interesting when all the acoustic panels have been manufactured and installed and what further sonic discoveries are to be revealed. Waiting for more material at the moment and we need to find some more decorative stuff but even the first few panels have had a very significant effect. Eventually I may try some bass traps if I can work out how to build something that is WAF friendly.:lol:
Indeed and there is toe out and toe up too to play with.
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by struth
I think I have found my next amplifier with 400 watt output so should drive the Heco speakers with very little effort. Amazing price which makes me think some of us audio nuts have been paying over the odds for our gear?
Not sure what the echo button will do to my room acoustics however...??:doh:
https://electromarket.co.uk/fenton-a...ia-player-400w
Aye jobs a good 'un there. Do I want one? Let me think about it...Mmm no :D
Ultimate exaggeration. I have sympathy for people that believe this tosh.
Likelihood no more than your current amplifier in real RMS power. Power supply is a 15V adapter, if it was 400W output then it would need to be rated at 27A at least.
The maximum rating I have seen on a adapter brick is about 5A :rolleyes:
I would be concerned to plug it in!Quote:
Originally Posted by Firebottle
Here you go get two of these, stick them in a box, connect up to psu and pre amp, and two 4 ohm speakers and stand at the back of the room. 400w of pure hifi per channel [emoji23]
you might want some emergency equipment at hand, fire extinguisher, swabs for bleeding ears, and spare speakers. [emoji23][emoji23]
https://purifi-audio.com/vare/1et400a/
There again. How much power do you need? My 4 watt amp goes surprisingly loud! :)
Power is nothing without control.
I have been looking at Power amplifiers closer to Geoffs as my speakers are very efficient at 92dB so I think something pretty low powered and Class A would drive them nicely. My current Croft 7 at only 45 watts output is plenty enough. I have tried some much more powerful amps and they did not actually sound any better, more control in the bass maybe but lost out elsewhere.
I certainly won't be considering any monster wattage Class D amplification as they struggle in the midrange and I am not so sure they sound very natural. Great for pumping up da bass but for playing music..??
My little TPA 3116 Class D mini amp puts a smile on my face when I rig it up. Less than twenty quid from China and sounds very musical, claimed to be 50 watts, but shown on test to be 18 watts RMS. Everybody should have one as a back-up! :)
Are you using small speakers? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by walpurgis
I have a little class D amp (can't remember the make or model number), which I used with the TV, powering audio into a pair of B&W DM2a speakers with success. Now I use a Quad 520f amplifier, which at 135W/channel is probably overkill.Quote:
Originally Posted by walpurgis
I have just dug out my class D amp. It's an Amptastic Mini-T amplifier.
https://hifipig.com/wp-content/uploa.../amptastic.jpg
Received rave reviews at the time for such a small and modest design (it's only 10W/channel) - and it only cost £60.
It has since been updated to the Amptastic Mini-1, with improved quality components used inside and improved cosmetics outside, but now is double the price.
https://www.hifipig.com/wp-content/u...2/amp2_300.jpg
I now know 5 people who have got these T amps:)
had a t-amp too once. not sure which one it was tho. think it was black actually. surprising how good they can be with sensitive speakersQuote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
I think they were very popular way before the latest Class D amps came on the scene.Quote:
Originally Posted by struth
Plenty of quality Class D amps available on this site. Some monster power for fairly good price.
https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/power...m-p-14393.html
Were I after a modern class D amplifier, the one you cite would interest me: reasonable price (£1,000); plenty of power (though I would regard it as 200W into 8 Ohm); excellent distortion figures, and the option of balanced inputs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Make that 6 James ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
I too have an Amptastic Mini-1 in my second system, which I bought from a fellow forum member for about £80 iirc. It has been running 24/7 for the last five years and does an excellent job. As of last week I replaced it with something else, but I won't be getting rid, it's a handy back-up which takes up no storage space :)
Agreed - which is why I have kept mine (a Mini-T); so make that 7. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigmy Pony
Well it looks like they were rather popular little amps and indeed the amp I am looking for is a sort of back up. Maybe I should consider one :lol:
Definitely worth having as a back up. And if your speakers are reasonably sensitive they will go pretty loud. I used mine for a short time into my big 99dB Zu floorstanders and they went to neighbour-bothering levels no problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
I remember now hearing one in a system a few years back and was surprised at the size of the thing.
I already have 5 amps as a backup solution. I should thin the spares down a bit…
What do you have as backs ups Kevin?Quote:
Originally Posted by CageyH
I think you mentioned you now use a 686 for power amp currently?
I have a 686 for daily business.
I have the following as back up:
Kenwood KA-3020SE
Arcam Alpha 8R
Arcam Alpha 8p (Starting to have my doubts about owning this one ;) )
Arcam Alpha 9P
Arcam Alpha 10P