Will do, thanks for the warning.Quote:
Originally Posted by leo
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Will do, thanks for the warning.Quote:
Originally Posted by leo
Have the Nichicon KZ in now, keeping the lid off the DAC to make for quick changes. These are nice and have at least the bass quality of the Nichicon bipolars before being properly run in. Lovely mid and sweet top. They're staying in for a while.
I have eliminated the Elna Silmic II as have too light a bass balance for coupling use.
I wonder, Leo, if you could draw up a table and populate it with our findings for each cap?
Sorry for missing your question James :doh:.Quote:
Originally Posted by James G
It was a combination of luck and planning that caused me to try out the mod. I used to offer it by special order on the TC-7510, but the output was only suitable for AUX input on an amp. The Caiman output is a bit higher. The passive mod is about -3dB down on the normal CD input on an amp.
I was busy testing some non-polarised caps with the intention of finding out if they are good enough to use. The one method I use to judge the sonic qualities of a capacitor is by connecting it between a DAC output and a preamp. Not very scientific, but it works for me. As the findings of others have shown, it's an extremely rewarding method :).
Note for Black Gate users. Performance of my Black Gates are really fluctuating quite a bit. Last night they were quite bass light - so I recommend sticking with then for a couple of weeks to fully assess before changing for anything else.
Andrew
The thing about running in is that you must keep music flowing through the DAC otherwise the relay is in the mute position and the caps won't have a charge across them.
I run Sky HD on MTV during the day while I'm at work.
Hi guys.
been reading the posts with great interest and having been trying out the passive mod on both of my 7510's - Mk6/3 & Mk6/4.
The Mk6/4 also has had the Mod21 pt1 /1 done, both have lower noise 5V regs - National LNM3405T5 stuffwed in too. Both run on a 12V lead acid battery.
I've got the M6/3 running Silmic's and MK6/4 with Nichicon Muse. The Mk6/4 did have Nichicon FGs but I swopped out when I got the Muse.
Findings so far - first impressions:
Silmic: I haven't found them to have a light weight bass yet. I'm listening while I'm writing this and they sound good, top end needs to settle a tad on some more brighter recordings - need more soaking in. I used these for the 7510 MOD21 pt1/2 and did like them there at all - they made it too creamy the crispness on cymbals went and vocals seemed to lose there edge. But in this mod they sound very good.
Nichicon FGs : Top end can seem a bit too hard but they do give the music a bit of snap. As noted female vocals seemed more effected by this slight hardness. Most prolly need soaking in like most of these high end caps.
Nichicon Muse : haven't really listened to the much. Intiall impression was these are good and more towards the Silmic with the FG snap. Needs a lot more listining :-)
I've got some Black Gates on Parts Connexion - thanksto the modder who gave the tip on where to get them , nice one :) So when I get these I'll give them a spin.
I've just changed over amps to really get the benifits of this mod. I'm now using the class A 20W toob amp and it knocked my socks off how good this simple mod is. Bang for buck or what! so gawd knows what you guys are getting with the Caimen - must sound really top draw.
I don't have problem with the reduced output as my passive pre TVC has got boost switches which lifts the gain by about 6dB so that's helped.
I can tell you it's nice to do these cheap mods as toob rolling gets pretty expensive.
Cheers guys for great postings and pointers.
Cheers / Stevie :cool:
Now that the dust has settled a little I have had time to rethink the mod wiring.
The latest suggestion for trying out the mod requires only two pieces of wires. That means that you can try the mod out before deciding if you want to invest in two expensive caps.
Remove the line output opamp.
Solder two pieces of wires to the outer pins on the connector on the left side of the PCB (looking at the DAC from the front).
Push the bare ends of the left wire into pin 1 of the empty IC socket.
Push the bare ends of the rightt wire into pin 7 of the empty IC socket.
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/images/mods/caiman/f1.jpg
This way of doing it allows you to also add some improvements to the headphone section. The muting circuit is also fully functional, and there is a bit of HF filtering to remove some of any HF noise.
If you add the 68nF caps mod ( reddish caps in the picture) by replacing the 100nF ones (blue or yellow on the original PCB), the headphone amp performance will be almost indistinguishable from the original layout. With the THS4032, and some non-polarised caps I am trying out, my HD800 and D7000 have not pulled away significantly from my K701 and HD650 in terms of musicality, detail, and clarity. So for headphone users this alternative way of adding the mod is well worth a go.
Thanks to Stan for both the mod and those caps I just picked up earlier. I can't doa proper comparison since only earlier this morning did I put a pack of five heavy floor tiles under each speaker (sep. by blutak) and the bass resonances vanished. Now the bass (with this mod) is back so I need to do more appreciating before coming to a conclusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinT
What about a new thread or maybe doing it as a poll ? Thats if I can work out how to do one, never done a poll before
Exactly! This is one reason why I'd like to find a good alternative to the BG's, I don't like the fact their performance goes up and down and tend to sound better when they've had constant voltage across them for a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinT
Indeed Leo but its reassuring that you've woken up to Black Gates at long last :D :D :D ;)
Update: True to form from past experience the standard BG's came on song after about 50hrs of use.
Female vocals are now better balanced and less fatiguing(!) so they did change a bit more. Rally enjoyed my session this afternoon without the family distraction ;)
The FK's are now in place and its early days as yet...diffuse presentation, smooth and detailed though as I'd expect, this will change but the FK's take more than the standards to run in up to 200hrs however they give a good indication after a few, so I expect a smooth, rich but detailed presentation that ultimately will lack a little bit of balls for rock.....we'll see!
Has anyone tried the Rubycon ZL/ZLG in this mod?
Yes, I was suprised with them this time and don't mind admitting the BG's work very well in this dac, not always had success with them in the past though :)Quote:
Originally Posted by NRG
Oh, got a couple of used 47uf 16v standards on the way too now
Not for coupling (I have tried them for decoupling supply rails) their steel leads and low ESR may make them a little sharp in the high's used for coupling. Worth a try though seeing as though their cheap.Quote:
Originally Posted by James G
A new thread with the root message being updated with additions to it. A header for each capacitor and a bullet point for every comment made about it, plus the contributor's name should do it. The exact name, value and voltage of the capacitor would be helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by leo
Just a bit of feedback on this mod. I picked up a couple of pairs of caps from Stan and tried a pair of Capxon (?) ones. I have also made changes to the speakers by putting them on 20kg of slate-effect porcelain floor tiles sandwiched with some blutak, so this is not a fair or scientific comparison.
Initial impressions are that the sound is "grittier" and "raw" but not as unpleasant as those adjectives would make it out to be. The removal of bass resonances with the wooden floor under the carpet by the new positioning of the speakers makes it hard to judge the low end at all. At first I had the fixed level output going through the Audiolab 8000C but after initial testing I went with a variable output direct into the Rotel 1572 power amp. All good.
I did the remove-opamp-board and push caps in version of the mod since I am not really set-up for or confident in my soldering abilities.
This is another pair of changes to my system that I can say help to seperate out good and bad mastering - Rodrigo Y Gabriella's 11:11 track 1 came through as stunning with little fear of the compression that must be there (it's a new loud recording after all) while some older stuff came through muted and muffled by comparison.
Now that I am not constrainted by the Audiolab's groundloop annoyances, when using the Caiman as the preamp, I can more easily leave the lid unscrewed (no ground wire) and then try with and without opamp board and also finally try the AD826s too.
I have taken out the opamp board and fitted Rubycon non-polars into the pins as shown in the pictures (the same ones we put in the opamp board mod). I had already done the Murata's and top qulaity linear supply a few months back. This feeds into an Avondale A260 and then into JM Labs 926 speakers using the variable outputs.
Well, I don't like the sound changes - I love them!
I cannot detect any harshness etc as some have found. The sound is smooth, powerfull and very enjoyable compared to the AD826 opamp setup I tried before with the wire and resistor mods (and I liked that).
Thanks Stan and everyone for a great upgrade at very little cost.
Regards
Chris
A quick look on the Internet seems to suggest that ZA is better. However they'll all cheap enough to consider trying the lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by James G
Andrew
Is there an upper limit to the capacitor rating that can be used for this mod?
For example, would using a 220uF 6.3V cap be a bad idea for any reason?
Thanks.
Since the circuit is completed via your preamp's input circuit you could leave yourself open to large thumps when you play music and the muting relay disengages, charging the capacitors all of a sudden.Quote:
Originally Posted by HighFidelityGuy
This happened to me with some Elna Silmics (which I suspect are leaky) and my power amp went into protection shutdown!
In any case, you shouldn't need such a large value as the corner frequency will be unnecessarily low.
Ok thanks, I'll stay away from values above 47uF in that case. I just noticed that Parts Connexion had some BG NX series at 6.3V at a reasonable price but the lowest value is 220uF, so I thought I'd double check before I wasted my money. I'm glad I did.Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinT
Cheers. :)
My passive mod with Superreg in place of 7805.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2...sex/Fog003.jpg
Hi!
As I'm not a pro in electronics and try to avoid mistakes ... I have three questions to the experts here:
-
1)
As it is not always possible to supply caps with 47µf, is it better to go for caps with smaller values (33µf, 22µf, ...) of higher ones ( 100µf)?
Where would you say is the highest/lowest possible value?
-
2)
Someone already mentioned in the thread that any type capable of handling more than 2,5v would be ok. Can this be confirmed?
-
3)
When using the passive output mod, does it still make sense to upgrade BOTH regs (eg. with muratas)? Or is the replacement of one of the regs 'obsolete' as there is no output opamp to supply?
Thanks, cheers and happy cap-hunting!
cz
1. - 33uF or 22uF will do. The lower you go, the less bass will be had.
2. - 6.3V minimum.
3. - just upgrade the 5V reg.
Thanks Stan, now I know what to hunt for ... ;-)
Cheers, cz
Elna Silmic II - 47uF 10V
- Clean, low distortion. Not the most transparent. Light bass. Leaky - caused power amp to go into protection!
Nichicon Muse bipolar - 47uF 16V
- Nice clean mid, very clean, slightly light bass
Nichicon Muse KZ - 47uF 25V
- Very promising, delicate and clean midrange, extended detailed treble, extended but neutral bass
Rubycon CE bipolar 47uF 16V
- Good clean midrange, less forward than KZ, full bass but not quite as extended
So far it's between the KZ and the Rubycon so I'll put more hours on them both. More caps to come...
Is it really neccessary to use 47uf. In other passive mods I have done I have used nothing bigger than 4.7uf?
It all depends on the input impedance of the next stage, be that preamp or integrated.
Capxon are nasty Chinese capacitors with a poor reputation for leaking and blowing their safety vents. Avoid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Galbavy
In the Caiman 10uF is the lowest I recommend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puffin
Nice one but the caps will need a week or so running time as they will change quite a bit especially on the transparancy front.Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinT
Regards
Chris
Agreed, Chris. I wanted to do a quick elimination and am now putting hours on the Rubycons having already put hours on the KZs. I will then compare them more thoroughly.Quote:
Originally Posted by chrism
I next have Sanyo Os-Con polymers and Wima film caps due to arrive. I'll publish an updated table when done.
I'm still really enjoying the Nichicon Muse bipolar caps in my setup. I haven't compared them against anything other than the active output yet but they are quite a bit more transparrent and clean sounding than that and the slight harshness I detected in the beginning has gone now that they are run in more. They've had about a week of heavy use now and have really opened up. The dynamics are simply breathtaking. I listened to my favourite band Explosions In The Sky last night who specialise in sudden dynamic changes and even thought I knew it was going to sound good I was still blown away by the sheer power and emotion. :eek: It's the closest I've ever got to a live performance by this band. I simply cannot express how happy I am with the sound I'm now getting from my system. It's very nearly perfect to my taste. I'm going to try a few more caps soon but these Muse bipolars are going to take some beating. If the Muse KZ and Blackgates are as good as some people are saying then I may be pleasently supprised.
Thank you very much for this mod Stan, I'm a very happy man indeed. :cool:
PS. If you've never heard Explosion In the Sky, get on Spotify and listen to Yasmin The Light. If you've done the passive output mod and you have big speakers and amps then prepare for a big smile. It's breathtaking stuff. :eyebrows:
The FK's have had sufficient time on them now to start forming an opinion.
Their presentation is smooth and detailed in comparison to the standards(STD). The STD ones are more 'raw' and seem to lack the same amount of detail but after careful listening I think its the way its presented that differs.
The STD ones suit rock music better, there's an edge to electric guitar and vocals, these are pushed towards you away from the 'speakers...the presentation is very solid between the 'speakers and has more bounce, more drive...
The FK's on the other hand have a more diffuse presentation, very smooth, detailed and sweet bordering on polite IMHO, the same rock music played on them lacks the same drive and vocal intimacy the sound stage seems flattened and spread wider.
However, they gain on female vocals and simple recordings where their more delicate presentation is more suited, their ability to convey vocal emotion is really good, hairs standing up on the back of the neck stuff...
So its a tough one to choose at the moment, I'll give the FK's more hours to see if they develop more....or I may just fit a switch so I can flick depending on my mood! ;)
The mod is fantastic, but I reckon I can do better (for my tastes) than the FKs - which are not really ideal when I am still using the relays and would have to have the PC up and running continuously to keep the FKs warmed up.
I have on order a surprise choice of capacitors and will only say that they are used by two of my favourite brands - Linn (their LK series amps) and Heed Audio. They are not designer and have even seen other forum posts recommending that they are swapped out of the Musical Fidelity X-Cans, but they should give me more body to the bass and less in the way of warm-up issues.
Also they'll be going into my Maplin CB radio supply (uprating the 2200uF to 4400uF) along with some better diodes (as used by 47 Labs in their Gaincard). This is a good supply, but feel that my original 7520 supply was better (more solid and responsive sounding) even with my MuRatas. Hopefully these changes will nose the power supply ahead.
I may later try some Rubycon ZAs, Panasonic FCs and Nichicons.
Andrew
Do tell!Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewR
The Rubycon CE bipolars are really coming on song now. They have the best soundstage depth and the bass has filled out and extended very well. They are good at bringing to my attention subliminal detail. Nice.
I removed a pair of 47uf 16v grey Rubycons from the op-amp board and currently have them in use for the passive mod, tbh these are doing a good job so far imo . Do they better the BG FK's ? dunno yet but so far so good
I can say I think the Rubycons are better than the 10uf plastic films, 47uf Nichicon FG , 47uf Axial Tants, 10uf dipped tant, 33uf Panny FC's I've tried.
so far
BTW all these caps had been well used before
I've seen cheap Jamicons used in a lot of Heeds products
Thats great Neal ta! I should have the used Blackgate standards tomorrow (hopefully) so look forward to trying themQuote:
Originally Posted by NRG
Has anyone managed to compare the Caiman with the latest mod against anything else? Or is the mod so gripping that you nobody has bothered to even attempt a comparison? I need the research data for long term R&D purposes :rolleyes:.
Stan can I just check - this mod is suitable for 7520 yes?
Also during my experiments with op amps I found that I actually liked the sound with no op amps in at all (!!) as it sounded as if it had more energy, definatly more kick and vibration coming out of the speakers. Clearly my method is not the reccomended (or safe??) for the DAC I will have to try your mod Stan with the two wires in the op amp sockets (what does that actually do compared to just removing the op amps?) but this mod in its various incarnations looks to be an extension of what I found by removing op amps, and I am gagging to give it a go!!!
Gotta order some suitable caps does any have a sugestion for decent caps that are not silly money??
Butuz
The mod will work on the TC-7520, but output will be down by about 6dB compared to the opamp. I mentioned this already in this thread and won't keep repeating nmyself:rolleyes:.
You can get two pieces of the Rubycon 47uF from Jimmy at http://tirnaelectronics.co.uk for £2.00, or there abouts, posted if you email or phone him and mentioned I sent you. His are fresh stock, which means the electrolyte inside the caps is not contaminated from lying idle on a shelf for years. So performance will be better than the BG I reckon.
Sorry stan please bear in mind this thread is 25 pages long I only had time to skim read clearly not the best way of gleaning information but it's all I got before I hit the sack! :)
Ps. i noted the drop in output during op amp removal but it's not a problem as I don't usually listen at more than 1/4 volume anyway. Find myself maxing out at about 1/2 volume with op amp removal.
Cheers for the help.
Butuz
Hi leo, you've got it! They're used in the Heed Obelisk and my LK140 amplifier. So I thought it might be worth trying out as I really dig those amps, particularly with regards to their quick warm-up period and really beefy bass. Its just a hunch that the Jamicons may be the commonality there, but over the next few days (when I receive them) I could be proven wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by leo
Anyway if I don't like them I've not lost much and can readily swap them for something else (probably try Nichicons).
Andrew
I can do a comparison of my Passived 7510 against the New DacMagic, LiTe Dac Ah and a Chinese CS4397 Dac?Quote:
Originally Posted by StanleyB
I've got nothing else to compare it against Stan, just with the regulator and cap mod on the audio board it had already pushed past my TDA1541 and MF A3.24, I can try the MF again as it's not been used for a while so memory may be a little dim......
I don't really have anything commercial to hand at the moment to compare against, only thing I have is diy so not really helpful
Thats the nice thing with this mod, its cheap and easy to compare caps :)Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewR
Any precautions to adhere to when swapping caps ?, don't they hold an electrical charge for a while ?Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinT
The charge they hold is tiny, so no safety requirements. As for thumps through the system, switch the Caiman off while changing caps. Then play a few seconds of music with your preamp/power amp in mute before listening. Any charging thump will have been and gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by drumlins4ever